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Old
09-19-2011, 05:12 PM
  #26
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I think you underestimate the kind of impact AK might have player as a 3rd liner. He's got amazing "finish" ability.. Struggles mostly to achieve play superiority (get a scoring chance). He converts very, very well. Playing him against softer opposition regurlary could very turn him into our best scorer.

He won't be easily replaced with a upcoming young guy. AK is the real thing, once you understand his limitation and shape things around him so his liability exposure isn't too high.
Which would happen to all of our top 6 wingers too if they would be put into that situation with the complete lineup healthy.

Let's just agree to disagree on replacing him with a younger player.

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09-19-2011, 05:18 PM
  #27
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Perhaps it will be something like this:

Cammalleri Pleks Cole
Gionta DD Pacioretty
Kosti Gomez Eller
Darche Enqvist Moen

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09-19-2011, 05:19 PM
  #28
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Cole wasn't brought here to play on the third line. If AK wants top six, he has to take MaxPac's job away. He ain't taking Cammy or Gionta's slots.

Honestly though, I think playing with Eller and/or DD is a great opportunity for AK. The calibre of opposition will be vastly softer. Instead of trying to get around Chara and Pronger type opposition, he'd often be facing bottom pairing d, and has the skills to eat them alive. Frankly I'm not crazy about either Cole or AK on the PP, especially not first unit. They don't play as well without their feet moving, and don't have the best deflections or the quickest releases, despite the quality of their shots. DD on the other hand, could thrive on the PP. Long story short habs needed help five on five and having Cole, Pacioretty and AK lets the habs put a winger with size, skill and speed on all three top lines. All three should get 20+ goals if healthy. Cammy and Gio could/should flirt with 30. It's the best winger group the Habs have had since the mid 90s.

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09-19-2011, 05:19 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Which would happen to all of our top 6 wingers too if they would be put into that situation with the complete lineup healthy.

Let's just agree to disagree on replacing him with a younger player.
You do make a valid point about putting a top-6 on the 3rd.

But hear me out about this: AK's skills would probably benefit more from a weak opposition and clever linesmate than anybody else on the Habs roster. Except maybe Camellari and Gionta, he's the most purely skilled (shooting precision/movement) on our team.

But what they have he doesn't is a superior hockey mind. Both of C or G can compete against top lines and not be a liability... It's kind of less the case about AK.

Pacioretty is less skilled, but more competent to create chances than AK. This is why he competes against top lines.

So.. Do I make my case, or we still disagree?

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09-19-2011, 05:25 PM
  #30
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Are people sure that Cole is a better offensive forward than Kostitsyn? I'm not. However, that doesn't mean Kostitsyn will automatically play on the first line. A lineup of
Cammalleri-Plekanec-Cole
Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-Eller-Desharnais
may be optimal, teamwise.

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Old
09-19-2011, 05:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You do make a valid point about putting a top-6 on the 3rd.

But hear me out about this: AK's skills would probably benefit more from a weak opposition and clever linesmate than anybody else on the Habs roster. Except maybe Camellari and Gionta, he's the most purely skilled (shooting precision/movement) on our team.

But what they have he doesn't is a superior hockey mind. Both of C or G can compete against top lines and not be a liability... It's kind of less the case about AK.

Pacioretty is less skilled, but more competent to create chances than AK. This is why he competes against top lines.

So.. Do I make my case, or we still disagree?
Problem is, to me, that's also part of what I define as "skills".

What you mean is stickwork.

Hockey IQ is a skill as much as stickwork, and the former is probably the most important one.

Don't be surprised if AK gets traded and Palushaj takes his place by mid-season, if we're not riding too many injuries.

Ultimately, knowing the Habs usual MO, they'll keep him till his contract runs out, whether he plays good or not. But if he plays great, I think Gauthier might be tempted to strike on the opportunity. Strike the iron while its hot. Before it dies down again. Dies down soooo quickly.

Just ask anyone around here, I'm always optimistic about the Habs, but AK has proven to be unable to keep the same level of play for a long time and we are nearing a point where the chances of losing him will be very high. If there is one time we could afford doing such a thing its this year.

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Old
09-19-2011, 05:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Are people sure that Cole is a better offensive forward than Kostitsyn? I'm not. However, that doesn't mean Kostitsyn will automatically play on the first line. A lineup of
Cammalleri-Plekanec-Cole
Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-Eller-Desharnais
may be optimal, teamwise.
Might not be, but he sure is a better fit than Kostitsyn. If Kostitsyn wants to be the sniper of his line, and not the guy who's doing the dirty work, he's better off on the 3rd line. Cole will create space for Cammalleri and Plekanec, and bring a Pacioretty-like element on their line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Problem is, to me, that's also part of what I define as "skills".

What you mean is stickwork.

Hockey IQ is a skill as much as stickwork, and the former is probably the most important one.

Don't be surprised if AK gets traded and Palushaj takes his place by mid-season, if we're not riding too many injuries.

Ultimately, knowing the Habs usual MO, they'll keep him till his contract runs out, whether he plays good or not. But if he plays great, I think Gauthier might be tempted to strike on the opportunity. Strike the iron while its hot. Before it dies down again. Dies down soooo quickly.

Just ask anyone around here, I'm always optimistic about the Habs, but AK has proven to be unable to keep the same level of play for a long time and we are nearing a point where the chances of losing him will be very high. If there is one time we could afford doing such a thing its this year.
Great post, and I agree. It's not like he was bound to come back at a discount anyway. If d-day is weak once again this year, he might even fetch us a 2nd 1st rounder. Would be great to have another 2007-like draft, wouldn't it?


Last edited by Mike8: 09-19-2011 at 06:08 PM. Reason: merge
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09-19-2011, 06:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Problem is, to me, that's also part of what I define as "skills".

What you mean is stickwork.

Hockey IQ is a skill as much as stickwork, and the former is probably the most important one.

Don't be surprised if AK gets traded and Palushaj takes his place by mid-season, if we're not riding too many injuries.

Ultimately, knowing the Habs usual MO, they'll keep him till his contract runs out, whether he plays good or not. But if he plays great, I think Gauthier might be tempted to strike on the opportunity. Strike the iron while its hot. Before it dies down again. Dies down soooo quickly.

Just ask anyone around here, I'm always optimistic about the Habs, but AK has proven to be unable to keep the same level of play for a long time and we are nearing a point where the chances of losing him will be very high. If there is one time we could afford doing such a thing its this year.
I would be surprised actually. If he gets traded it's because we have a skilled winger coming back. Palushaj better be burning the AHL and the only way he gets called up is either due to injuries or because some of our top9 players are performing badly, very badly. Also, once called up Aaron will have to prove he can produce consistently. So ya, i would be quite surprised to see Ak moved at the benefit of Aaron.

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09-19-2011, 06:09 PM
  #34
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So we are going to replace 20 goals, 45 points-50 points with a an AHL guy?

And we want to contend for the cup?

Smart move. Do you really think we will be getting a good prospect for A.K? If he is hot, maybe... but having tough time developping young players, I rather have A.K than another projet.

We already have, Kristo, Leblanc, Avtsyn, Dumont, Gallagher, Winnet, Palushaj and more to develop. Not willing to add another 1 to this list by losing a 20+goals scorer, 45+ points, always in the + in the +/- departement, leader in the hit departement...

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09-19-2011, 06:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I would be surprised actually. If he gets traded it's because we have a skilled winger coming back. Palushaj better be burning the AHL and the only way he gets called up is either due to injuries or because some of our top9 players are performing badly, very badly. Also, once called up Aaron will have to prove he can produce consistently. So ya, i would be quite surprised to see Ak moved at the benefit of Aaron.
Do you actually believe Kostitsyn is coming back next season? Especially with the expected weak FA market next summer?

Don't get me wrong, Kostitsyn is valuable to this team at a certain extent... but is he really, REALLY worth looking over potentially a high draft pick, or maybe an efficient d-man if we need some by the trade deadline?

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09-19-2011, 06:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by stonecole72 View Post
Do you actually believe Kostitsyn is coming back next season? Especially with the expected weak FA market next summer?

Don't get me wrong, Kostitsyn is valuable to this team at a certain extent... but is he really, REALLY worth looking over potentially a high draft pick, or maybe an efficient d-man if we need some by the trade deadline?
We are kind of overloaded in the D-departement: Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Yemelin, Weber, Diaz, Nash, Bealieu, Tinordi....

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09-19-2011, 06:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by AraGOHABSGO View Post
We are kind of overloaded in the D-departement: Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Yemelin, Weber, Diaz, Nash, Bealieu, Tinordi....
Nash, Beaulieu and Tinordi shouldn't be part of the equation, and quantity != quality. You never know about injuries or a particular need for a left-handed shooter on the PP.

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09-19-2011, 06:54 PM
  #38
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Nash, Beaulieu and Tinordi shouldn't be part of the equation, and quantity != quality. You never know about injuries or a particular need for a left-handed shooter on the PP.
Why dont they count in equation?

Are we looking for a veteran for a 27 guy in a peek?

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09-19-2011, 06:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by AraGOHABSGO View Post
So we are going to replace 20 goals, 45 points-50 points with a an AHL guy?

And we want to contend for the cup?

Smart move. Do you really think we will be getting a good prospect for A.K? If he is hot, maybe... but having tough time developping young players, I rather have A.K than another projet.

We already have, Kristo, Leblanc, Avtsyn, Dumont, Gallagher, Winnet, Palushaj and more to develop. Not willing to add another 1 to this list by losing a 20+goals scorer, 45+ points, always in the + in the +/- departement, leader in the hit departement...
He probably won't be replaced out of camp and maybe not by the deadline, but he will be soon. We have some comers, and there's no question that we need a guy like Cole to help out our smaller guys in the top 6 (which is everyone else)

AK is SUPPOSED to be a top 6 scorer who can also dish and use his size, but just because he plays that style doesn't mean he's good enough to play on a Cup winner's top two lines (which is what I hope we're playing hockey to do). He doesn't hustle, can't set up his shot and is no good on the boards unless he's running someone from behind. And is he uncoachable too? Really dumb, lazy penalties too. Worried about that from Yemelin as well. Ugh...

Got to think he'd be dangerous on a line with Getzlaf (if he was traded there, or if we go back in time and draft Getzlaf and then get Andrei on the waiver wire from wherever he'd be dumped from by now).


Last edited by tinyzombies: 09-19-2011 at 07:07 PM.
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Old
09-19-2011, 07:00 PM
  #40
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ES :

Cammy - Plek - Cole
Patches - Gomez - Gionta
DD - Eller - AK
Moen - Engvist - Darche-White

PP :

1st wave : Cammy - Plek - Patches
2nd wave : DD - Gomez - Gionta

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09-19-2011, 07:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
ES :

Cammy - Plek - Cole
Patches - Gomez - Gionta
DD - Eller - AK
Moen - Engvist - Darche-White

PP :

1st wave : Cammy - Plek - Patches
2nd wave : DD - Gomez - Gionta
I wouldn't be surprised to see Eller knocking on the door for the PP. I think he's gonna bust out.

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09-19-2011, 07:13 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
He probably won't be replaced out of camp and maybe not by the deadline, but he will be soon. We have some comers, and there's no question that we need a guy like Cole to help out our smaller guys in the top 6 (which is everyone else)

AK is SUPPOSED to be a top 6 scorer who can also dish and use his size, but just because he plays that style doesn't mean he's good enough to play on a Cup winner's top two lines (which is what I hope we're playing hockey to do). He doesn't hustle, can't set up his shot and is no good on the boards unless he's running someone from behind. And is he uncoachable too? Really dumb, lazy penalties too. Worried about that from Yemelin as well. Ugh...

Got to think he'd be dangerous on a line with Getzlaf (if he was traded there, or if we go back in time and draft Getzlaf and then get Andrei on the waiver wire from wherever he'd be dumped from by now).
Its stuff like this that I can tell you didn't watch the games properly last season.

Taking dump penalty? He was actually very discipline last season. I've seen Gionta, Gomez or Cammy taking more selfish penalty. Stop trying to use the same cliche for every russian players. He was NOT lazy last season. Saying it over and over doesn't mean its true. Anybody who watch all the games last season without being biased can tell that he wasn't a lazy player. You can say he was inconsistent and we he is, he take dumb decision, not focused, can't received a pass... but calling him lazy is untrue.

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Old
09-19-2011, 07:20 PM
  #43
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If Martin keeps shuffling his lines this season like he did all of last year, of course AK will get some top 6 ice time... as well as Moen, Darche, Desharnais, White and Eller. He might even play Weber in the top 6 for a few games.

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09-19-2011, 08:10 PM
  #44
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Kostitsyn will ABSOLUTELY be a top 6 player this year.....Sergei that is...

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09-19-2011, 08:17 PM
  #45
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Kostitsyn will ABSOLUTELY be a top 6 player this year.....Sergei that is...
Thing is, that top 6 is weaker than our top 6

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09-19-2011, 08:46 PM
  #46
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Cole and pleks might not work out. Not hoping for it, just saying for all we know cole clicks with eller better than plekanec. NOTHING is set in stone, but probable outcome as the year progresses is andrei is on 3rd line with eller.

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09-19-2011, 08:54 PM
  #47
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Cole and pleks might not work out. Not hoping for it, just saying for all we know cole clicks with eller better than plekanec. NOTHING is set in stone, but probable outcome as the year progresses is andrei is on 3rd line with eller.
Cole has been signed to make Plekanec's and Cammalleri's lives easier. He'll get every chance to succeed with them. And if he doesn't, he'll go with Gionta and Gomez. Cole hasn't been signed 4,5M per to play with Eller.

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09-19-2011, 08:56 PM
  #48
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Cole has been signed to make Plekanec's and Cammalleri's lives easier. He'll get every chance to succeed with them. And if he doesn't, he'll go with Gionta and Gomez. Cole hasn't been signed 4,5M per to play with Eller.
I'm aware, I'm just saying for all we know it can be pacioretty on 3rd line. Training camp isn't over yet and after the trail begins, they may never click. Who knows!

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09-19-2011, 09:01 PM
  #49
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The way Martin is with his lines, there will be no set lineup. I see AK with Eller, because I think Cole on a line with Pleks and Camma helps them in the corners. Not that AK sucks in the corners, but we know he likes to shoot, 2 shooters on one line is ok, but have 3 lines with a passers, a shooter and a big body (3rd line more like 2 passers and a shooter)


To whoever made reference to an American line with Cole on the Gionta, Gomez line, Max is also born in the USA, so ya...

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09-19-2011, 09:03 PM
  #50
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I think having Kostitsyn on the third line is where he will excel the most, and possibly even grow as a player. He's tasted top line minutes and has been up-and-down for the most part, but like any maturing player, maybe some time dominating as a depth-scoring winger on the 3rd line will do him some good in helping round him into a more consistent top-line winger in the future if he happens to stay with us.

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