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The Sean Couturier dilemma

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Old
09-24-2011, 07:13 AM
  #51
VanSciver
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Can someone clarify something for me.

What would happen if Couturier was scratched for a game? Does that count against his 9 game limit?

If so would it be possible to extend his stay on the big club to say 18 games by scratching him every other game?
Regardless of the rule, what would possibly be gained by doing that?

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09-24-2011, 09:54 AM
  #52
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Can someone clarify something for me.

What would happen if Couturier was scratched for a game? Does that count against his 9 game limit?

If so would it be possible to extend his stay on the big club to say 18 games by scratching him every other game?
Yes, he has to actually play 9 games for it to count.

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09-24-2011, 10:57 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Michal Handzus couldn't skate as well and he turned out to be a fine player. The way Couturier has been playing, he's going to make the team. Say what you want about being a weak skater, but he always seems to be in the right place at the right time and that's something nobody can teach and it's something that doesn't have to do with being a good skater.

What sets Couturier apart is that he's incredibly intelligent and what ever physical skill he lacks, he makes up for it by the fact he's so smart.
Was Michael Handzus playing for us at 18? No, he made the jump when he was 21. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 21 year Handzus was probably bigger/stronger than he was at 18. (Read: more capable of physically handling NHL players.) I'm not saying slow players can't ever play. They just need to be strong enough to make up for it.

I fully expect Couturier to be a good player. All I'm saying is, with his lack of skating ability, I don't see how a physically weak 18 year old can play in the NHL.

Look at the 18 year olds that HAVE made the jump the past few years:

Hall
Seguin
Duchene
Tavares (may be the only exception here)
Stamkos

What do they have in common? Great skaters.

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09-24-2011, 11:01 AM
  #54
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The problem is that the Flyers have only $1,341,905 in cap space, which is $33,095 less than Couturier's cap hit.

They would either have to waive Shelley and replace him with a cheaper player like Sestito or Rinaldo (yes, it makes too much sense, but don't count on it), or send someone down to the AHL for a few days.



Bobrovsky would make the most sense logistically, since you could just get someone to sit on the bench for him, but unfortunately he is no longer waiver exempt. I believe the only move that can be made to fit Couturier without making a lasting roster move is to briefly send Schenn to the AHL so that some of his daily cap hits could be eliminated.

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09-24-2011, 11:08 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The problem is that the Flyers have only $1,341,905 in cap space, which is $33,095 less than Couturier's cap hit.

They would either have to waive Shelley and replace him with a cheaper player like Sestito or Rinaldo (yes, it makes too much sense, but don't count on it), or send someone down to the AHL for a few days.



Bobrovsky would make the most sense logistically, since you could just get someone to sit on the bench for him, but unfortunately he is no longer waiver exempt. I believe the only move that can be made to fit Couturier without making a lasting roster move is to briefly send Schenn to the AHL so that some of his daily cap hits could be eliminated.
If, as I posted in the Shelley suspension thread, Shelley's salary while on suspension doesn't count against the cap, then perhaps Couturier could be kept for those 5 games.

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09-24-2011, 11:09 AM
  #56
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Was Michael Handzus playing for us at 18? No, he made the jump when he was 21. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 21 year Handzus was probably bigger/stronger than he was at 18. (Read: more capable of physically handling NHL players.) I'm not saying slow players can't ever play. They just need to be strong enough to make up for it.

I fully expect Couturier to be a good player. All I'm saying is, with his lack of skating ability, I don't see how a physically weak 18 year old can play in the NHL.

Look at the 18 year olds that HAVE made the jump the past few years:

Hall
Seguin
Duchene
Tavares (may be the only exception here)
Stamkos

What do they have in common? Great skaters.
How about Jeff Skinner? Size and skating were the red flags on him which is why he didn't go higher in the draft. Yet he had a better rookie season than every player you mentioned.

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Old
09-24-2011, 11:17 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
If, as I posted in the Shelley suspension thread, Shelley's salary while on suspension doesn't count against the cap, then perhaps Couturier could be kept for those 5 games.
Oh wow. It sounds so wrong, but per capgeek:

Per Exhibit 8 of the CBA (Section 5, P. 270), suspended players who are considered "repeat offenders" affect a team's salary cap differently from "first-time offenders." A repeat offender is a player whose suspension is the second or more within 18 months.

Repeat offenders lose the following salary:

[ Cap Hit - Performance Bonuses ] / [ Games in Season ] * [ Number of Games Suspended ]

First-time offenders lose the following salary:

[ Cap Hit - Performance Bonuses ] / [ Days in Season ] * [ Number of Games Suspended ]

Per section 50.10-c (P. 226) of the CBA, salary and bonuses that are not paid to suspended players do not count against the cap, meaning the above formulas translate directly into a team's cap savings.
CBA Reference: Exhibit 8 (Section 5, P. 270) and 50.10-c (P. 226).


http://www.capgeek.com/FAQ.php

So that's [1,100,000] / [82] * [5] = $67,073

The Jody Shelley suspension saves the Flyers $67,000 in cap space! Whoo-hoo! Thank you Jody! Cooter fits under the cap all season now! This is the best thing you've ever done for our team!

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09-24-2011, 11:27 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Oh wow. It sounds so wrong, but per capgeek:

Per Exhibit 8 of the CBA (Section 5, P. 270), suspended players who are considered "repeat offenders" affect a team's salary cap differently from "first-time offenders." A repeat offender is a player whose suspension is the second or more within 18 months.

Repeat offenders lose the following salary:

[ Cap Hit - Performance Bonuses ] / [ Games in Season ] * [ Number of Games Suspended ]

First-time offenders lose the following salary:

[ Cap Hit - Performance Bonuses ] / [ Days in Season ] * [ Number of Games Suspended ]

Per section 50.10-c (P. 226) of the CBA, salary and bonuses that are not paid to suspended players do not count against the cap, meaning the above formulas translate directly into a team's cap savings.
CBA Reference: Exhibit 8 (Section 5, P. 270) and 50.10-c (P. 226).


http://www.capgeek.com/FAQ.php

So that's [1,100,000] / [82] * [5] = $67,073

The Jody Shelley suspension saves the Flyers $67,000 in cap space! Whoo-hoo! Thank you Jody! Cooter fits under the cap all season now! This is the best thing you've ever done for our team!
I'm not sure if your serious or not, but that 67,000 does virtually nothing for the Flyers cap space wise. And doesn't allow Couturier to fit under the Cap all Season long.

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09-24-2011, 11:39 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I'm not sure if your serious or not, but that 67,000 does virtually nothing for the Flyers cap space wise. And doesn't allow Couturier to fit under the Cap all Season long.
Yes it does. Assuming Lappy goes on LTIR, the current roster would be $33,000 over the total cap with the addition of Couturier. The Shelley suspension saves $67,000 against the total cap, meaning Couturier could now fit. Of course they might want more wiggle room than that, which you could get by sending Couturier down after the 9 games. But at the very least it allows the team to keep him on the Opening Day roster if they so choose. And technically, it gives them enough space for him to stay all year (although that might not be practical).

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_calculato...er.php?id=5376

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09-24-2011, 11:46 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Yes it does. Assuming Lappy goes on LTIR, the current roster would be $33,000 over the total cap with the addition of Couturier. The Shelley suspension saves $67,000 against the total cap, meaning Couturier could now fit. Of course they might want more wiggle room than that, which you could get by sending Couturier down after the 9 games. But at the very least it allows the team to keep him on the Opening Day roster if they so choose. And technically, it gives them enough space for him to stay all year (although that might not be practical).

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_calculato...er.php?id=5376
It doesn't work that way. In order for Couturier to fit, they would have to remove someone from that roster that you posted. It doesn't technically give them enough space for him to stay all year. The Flyers would not be considered Cap compliant.

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09-24-2011, 11:49 AM
  #61
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I can see him getting in the 9-game limit before being sent back. Go back and dominate the Q, light up WJC's, join the Phantoms at the end of the season where they'll hopefully be in the playoff hunt.

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09-24-2011, 11:56 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
It doesn't work that way. In order for Couturier to fit, they would have to remove someone from that roster that you posted. It doesn't technically give them enough space for him to stay all year. The Flyers would not be considered Cap compliant.
Why not? I'm not saying this is bullet-proof, but at least give a reason. As far as I understand it, the suspension saves the Flyers $67,000 Jody Shelley's total cap hit. Remove that, and the roster is under the cap hit.

With Shelley's new real total cap hit, as per the CapGeek FAQ:

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_calculato...er.php?id=5377

Per section 50.10-c (P. 226) of the CBA, salary and bonuses that are not paid to suspended players do not count against the cap, meaning the above formulas translate directly into a team's cap savings.
CBA Reference: Exhibit 8 (Section 5, P. 270) and 50.10-c (P. 226).

http://www.capgeek.com/FAQ.php

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09-24-2011, 11:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Why not? I'm not saying this is bullet-proof, but at least give a reason. As far as I understand it, the suspension saves the Flyers $67,000 Jody Shelley's total cap hit. Remove that, and the roster is under the cap hit.

With Shelley's new total cap hit, as per the CapGeek FAQ:

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_calculato...er.php?id=5377

Per section 50.10-c (P. 226) of the CBA, salary and bonuses that are not paid to suspended players do not count against the cap, meaning the above formulas translate directly into a team's cap savings.
CBA Reference: Exhibit 8 (Section 5, P. 270) and 50.10-c (P. 226).

http://www.capgeek.com/FAQ.php
It would give them the space to keep him up for a handful of games to just get a good look. But not for the whole Season. You need to have some Cap space in reserve for injuries and call ups. It's not practical to go into a Season with 33K or whatever in Cap space.

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Old
09-24-2011, 12:08 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
It would give them the space to keep him up for a handful of games to just get a good look. But not for the whole Season. You need to have some Cap space in reserve for injuries and call ups. It's not practical to go into a Season with 33K or whatever in Cap space.
OK, but that is completely different from not being considered cap compliant by the league (as you were suggesting). I already said that it might not be practical, but that it was technically possible.

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09-24-2011, 12:35 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
OK, but that is completely different from not being considered cap compliant by the league (as you were suggesting). I already said that it might not be practical, but that it was technically possible.
Your right, it is technically possible. For a few games, but not for the whole year. One injury such as to a Goalie, and it's an issue. They can keep him up for a handful of games, and when they send him back, they gain some Cap space back.

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Old
09-24-2011, 01:16 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Why not? I'm not saying this is bullet-proof, but at least give a reason. As far as I understand it, the suspension saves the Flyers $67,000 Jody Shelley's total cap hit. Remove that, and the roster is under the cap hit.

With Shelley's new real total cap hit, as per the CapGeek FAQ:

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_calculato...er.php?id=5377

Per section 50.10-c (P. 226) of the CBA, salary and bonuses that are not paid to suspended players do not count against the cap, meaning the above formulas translate directly into a team's cap savings.
CBA Reference: Exhibit 8 (Section 5, P. 270) and 50.10-c (P. 226).

http://www.capgeek.com/FAQ.php
This is what bugs me about the CAP, too complicated, you also have to realize that while it's savings towards the year long CAP, you also have a daily limit that can't be exceeded.

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Old
09-24-2011, 04:18 PM
  #67
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A lot of other teams Couturier is a lock for 2nd/3rd line center, ironically we have so many young good hockey players spots are hard to come by.

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09-24-2011, 04:26 PM
  #68
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It's funny when I hear people say that Couturier hasn't looked good or he's been average in the pre-season. I've seen every game so far and other than the first period of the Toronto pre-season opener, Couturier has been fabulous. You can tell that he's going to be a very special player. His hockey sense is so good, it's border line ridiculous, especially for an 18 year old. He's ALWAYS in the right place at the right time. His defensive game is second to none and he's only going to get better and better. Sending him back to junior won't do him any good. He's beyond the junior game at this point and if putting him on the wing while he gets his strength up to par is the way to go, then so be it.

Give it three seasons and he'll be a 100 point producer. He looks more and more like the second coming of Eric Staal every game and if I remember correctly, Staal also was accused of not being strong enough or quick enough to play the NHL game. He still stuck though. Same with Jeff Skinner. Once again, this is a case of a guy who has an enormous hockey IQ and sense to go along with it. Philadelphia is where Couturier needs to be, especially where the management and strength and conditioning group can keep a continuous eye on him.

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09-24-2011, 04:47 PM
  #69
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Jeff Skinner has an extremely unique skillset, to the point where it might not be totally worth bringing him into the conversation. The people who paid closest attention to him in juniors weren't surprised at all where he went in the draft and how he performed last year.

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09-24-2011, 05:10 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It's funny when I hear people say that Couturier hasn't looked good or he's been average in the pre-season. I've seen every game so far and other than the first period of the Toronto pre-season opener, Couturier has been fabulous. You can tell that he's going to be a very special player. His hockey sense is so good, it's border line ridiculous, especially for an 18 year old. He's ALWAYS in the right place at the right time. His defensive game is second to none and he's only going to get better and better. Sending him back to junior won't do him any good. He's beyond the junior game at this point and if putting him on the wing while he gets his strength up to par is the way to go, then so be it.

Give it three seasons and he'll be a 100 point producer. He looks more and more like the second coming of Eric Staal every game and if I remember correctly, Staal also was accused of not being strong enough or quick enough to play the NHL game. He still stuck though. Same with Jeff Skinner. Once again, this is a case of a guy who has an enormous hockey IQ and sense to go along with it. Philadelphia is where Couturier needs to be, especially where the management and strength and conditioning group can keep a continuous eye on him.
100 points? C'mon sir, not likely.

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09-24-2011, 05:15 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
100 points? C'mon sir, not likely.
He'll be skating like the wind at that point, the points will just happen.

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Old
09-24-2011, 05:30 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Philadelphia is where Couturier needs to be, especially where the management and strength and conditioning group can keep a continuous eye on him.
I'm starting to really agree with this particularly since our expectations are not stanley cup. Let Couturier develop with this young team.

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09-24-2011, 05:46 PM
  #73
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I'm starting to really agree with this particularly since our expectations are not stanley cup. Let Couturier develop with this young team.
I think the organization brass will always say that the stanley cup is the expectation. But realistically this team is a playoff team, and once you make the playoffs...anything can happen. Hopefully we can keep the team fresh enough through 82 games and Lavy's grueling practices to make a deep run

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09-24-2011, 05:52 PM
  #74
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I think the organization brass will always say that the stanley cup is the expectation. But realistically this team is a playoff team, and once you make the playoffs...anything can happen. Hopefully we can keep the team fresh enough through 82 games and Lavy's grueling practices to make a deep run
Yep. If Couturier sticks with this team, it's because they think he can contribute this year. The "rebuilding" premise isn't gonna cut it.

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09-24-2011, 07:41 PM
  #75
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How about Jeff Skinner? Size and skating were the red flags on him which is why he didn't go higher in the draft. Yet he had a better rookie season than every player you mentioned.
And really, Couturier's skating is not the problem it's being made out to be. Like every gangly tall kid, he has to take some time to catch up to his frame.

I really liked the way Couts played vs. Detroit, but I still think he should get sent down. Good teams develop their talent properly and it's not like the Flyers are desperate for him to make it. He's made a great showing, but it's not like he's beaten out Schenn or Briere for a spot at C.

For him to make it, it's going to be coin toss choice in a group with Nodl and Read for a spot on the 4th line. In that case, it would be better for him to play in Jr. again.

Big skinny kids like Primeau and Carter took some time to fill out. The guys who've made the jump lately are all small guys already at their biggest when they are 16. Couturier is a big power centre who needs another year in Jr. and 10 more pounds. He'll be a Flyer next year..

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