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How Many Trades Have the Habs Cleary Won In the Last 10 Years

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Old
09-15-2011, 04:44 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Yes, he admitted it himself and that's why he hired the strength and conditioning coach to train with him in Alaska on his dime.
He never said that. Let's take a look at what he actually said:


http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...#ixzz1Xt04mBVO


Not this summer. He headed to New York and after about one week off he returned to the gym with a personal trainer.

It’s not like I’ve ever come to a training camp without having done the work. You just can’t do that,” Gomez said. “But this was the earliest I’ve ever gotten back into training. If there’s one thing that can get you out of anything, it’s hard work.

“I want to deliver this season. Whether you’ve had a great season or a bad season, we’re now at a new season. Everyone wants to get off to a great start.”

I'm sorry but your claim that he was out of shape last year was wrong. He simply sucked. But keep making stuff up.

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Old
09-25-2011, 12:15 AM
  #102
Ayatollah Chowmeini
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Valentenko waived by NYR, Gomez trade now clearly a win

Sure, some Gomez haters will disagree. ("His contract is so big that we still have $4 million in cap space going into this season!")

With NYR ditching Higgins and Valentenko without really getting anything out of them, now might be a good time to look back and see that our 2 years of Gomez had us in the ECF and taking the Stanley Cup Champions to Game 7 OT. McDonagh may well turn out to be a solid top-4 in the NHL. But at worst, this trade is a wash and I'm calling it a clear Habs win.

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09-25-2011, 12:21 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
Sure, some Gomez haters will disagree. ("His contract is so big that we still have $4 million in cap space going into this season!")

With NYR ditching Higgins and Valentenko without really getting anything out of them, now might be a good time to look back and see that our 2 years of Gomez had us in the ECF and taking the Stanley Cup Champions to Game 7 OT. McDonagh may well turn out to be a solid top-4 in the NHL. But at worst, this trade is a wash and I'm calling it a clear Habs win.
Whatever makes you happy bro.

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Old
09-25-2011, 01:07 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Yes, he admitted it himself and that's why he hired the strength and conditioning coach to train with him in Alaska on his dime.
Gomez actually was training in NY all summer long, he was in alaska for a few weeks then came back in the big apple to train...

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09-25-2011, 07:40 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
Sure, some Gomez haters will disagree. ("His contract is so big that we still have $4 million in cap space going into this season!")

With NYR ditching Higgins and Valentenko without really getting anything out of them, now might be a good time to look back and see that our 2 years of Gomez had us in the ECF and taking the Stanley Cup Champions to Game 7 OT. McDonagh may well turn out to be a solid top-4 in the NHL. But at worst, this trade is a wash and I'm calling it a clear Habs win.
You're are living in dream land. No way this was a clear win, it was the worst trade post lockout AINEC.

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09-25-2011, 08:45 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You're are living in dream land. No way this was a clear win, it was the worst trade post lockout AINEC.
The worst trade??? No way...the Leafs and Kessel say hi...

It has turned into Gomez for McDonough.....not near as bad as everyone can make it out to be....I'm still not sold on McD at all...let's see how he progresses.

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09-25-2011, 09:11 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
The worst trade??? No way...the Leafs and Kessel say hi...

It has turned into Gomez for McDonough.....not near as bad as everyone can make it out to be....I'm still not sold on McD at all...let's see how he progresses.
Chris Higgins alone scored more goals than Gomez last year.

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Old
09-25-2011, 09:41 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
Sure, some Gomez haters will disagree. ("His contract is so big that we still have $4 million in cap space going into this season!")

With NYR ditching Higgins and Valentenko without really getting anything out of them, now might be a good time to look back and see that our 2 years of Gomez had us in the ECF and taking the Stanley Cup Champions to Game 7 OT. McDonagh may well turn out to be a solid top-4 in the NHL. But at worst, this trade is a wash and I'm calling it a clear Habs win.
Logic is all over the place here. So McDo could turn out to be a SOLID TOP-4 but you're calling it a clear Habs win? Partially based on the fact that we lost to the Cup champions in the 1st round? Where the great Gomez had 4 points and -6?. Based on the worst regular season of his life? Based on the fact that all of this plus he's taking 7,3 M$ out of cap space? CLEAR WIN???? Geez, no wonder some here think this organization never does anything wrong...

Hey don't look but amongst the guys they got in trading Higgins, Brandon Prust had 29 points last year playing 13 minutes a game....Gomez had 38 points playing 19 minutes....

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09-25-2011, 11:10 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Logic is all over the place here. So McDo could turn out to be a SOLID TOP-4 but you're calling it a clear Habs win? Partially based on the fact that we lost to the Cup champions in the 1st round? Where the great Gomez had 4 points and -6?. Based on the worst regular season of his life? Based on the fact that all of this plus he's taking 7,3 M$ out of cap space? CLEAR WIN???? Geez, no wonder some here think this organization never does anything wrong...

Hey don't look but amongst the guys they got in trading Higgins, Brandon Prust had 29 points last year playing 13 minutes a game....Gomez had 38 points playing 19 minutes....
Since Rangers were doing a salary dump I think McDo was overpayment. Higgins, Valentenko, and a pick should of been enough. Habs had used so many picks on drafting defensemen to throw away McDo in a trade that did not involve a return D was crazy. Since then they were forced to trade away picks for rental defensemen because of the depleted ranks.

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Old
09-25-2011, 11:25 AM
  #110
Ayatollah Chowmeini
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Logic is all over the place here. So McDo could turn out to be a SOLID TOP-4 but you're calling it a clear Habs win? Partially based on the fact that we lost to the Cup champions in the 1st round? Where the great Gomez had 4 points and -6?. Based on the worst regular season of his life? Based on the fact that all of this plus he's taking 7,3 M$ out of cap space? CLEAR WIN???? Geez, no wonder some here think this organization never does anything wrong...

Hey don't look but amongst the guys they got in trading Higgins, Brandon Prust had 29 points last year playing 13 minutes a game....Gomez had 38 points playing 19 minutes....
I'm not sure how saying that McDonagh could turn into a solid top 4 indicates flawed logic. In my opinion, a top 4 defenseman is roughly equivalent to a top 6 forward. Now you could say that my logic is flawed because I fail to take age/salary into account, but I think the fact that Gomez will be off the books before McDonagh hits his ceiling at least makes that consideration a wash.

Now WS, I have a lot of respect for your reports. If you were really high on McDonagh (which I don't remember) and are really low in Gomez (as you appear to be), then I can see why you disagree. But to be honest, I like McDonagh but never got that excited about him and think Gomez had a remarkably unlucky season last year, with the most notable instance being MaxPac's broken vertebrae just while they were beginning to click on the power play.

I think the organization can do plenty wrong. I just firmly believe that this trade wasn't one of them. To be honest, ignoring the fact that Gomez played a top six role in two (one especially good, one decent) playoff teams makes it seem like you think the organization can't do anything right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Chris Higgins alone scored more goals than Gomez last year.
And Gomez in his two regular seasons with the Habs has registered only 3 less assists (88) than Chris Higgins has anywhere in his entire career (91). Nice try, holmes.


Last edited by Mike8: 09-25-2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason: merge
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Old
09-25-2011, 11:34 AM
  #111
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Anoter vote for Kovalev for Balej.

Kovy was a superstar in Montréal.

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Old
09-25-2011, 11:43 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
And Gomez in his two regular seasons with the Habs has registered only 3 less assists (88) than Chris Higgins has anywhere in his entire career (91). Nice try, holmes.
I guess I should have been more explicit. The notion that the trade is now simply a McDonagh for Gomez trade totally dismisses a player that is significant enough that he has more goals than the "star" obtained in the trade. Taking Higgins out of the trade, simply because the Rangers no longer have him on their roster, is convenient for a particular angle to the argument.

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09-25-2011, 12:56 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I guess I should have been more explicit. The notion that the trade is now simply a McDonagh for Gomez trade totally dismisses a player that is significant enough that he has more goals than the "star" obtained in the trade. Taking Higgins out of the trade, simply because the Rangers no longer have him on their roster, is convenient for a particular angle to the argument.
I see your point, but the fact still remains that Gomez (Habs) and McDonagh (NYR) are all that remain for both teams. So if you're going to judge that trade today, that is what you should probably go by.

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09-25-2011, 02:15 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I guess I should have been more explicit. The notion that the trade is now simply a McDonagh for Gomez trade totally dismisses a player that is significant enough that he has more goals than the "star" obtained in the trade. Taking Higgins out of the trade, simply because the Rangers no longer have him on their roster, is convenient for a particular angle to the argument.
And my point was that if you expect Scott Gomez to be a scorer, no wonder you **** on him so much. He had more than twice the assists that Chris Higgins had last season, but you conveniently omit that from your argument.

Or how about the first season each player had with his respective team (or teams in Higgins's case). You know, the one where Gomez scored 59 points in 78 games (and went to the ECF, notching 14 points in 19 games) while Higgins scored 17 points in 77 games and ended up signing an FA deal with Florida. Where was that pertinent information in your nuanced and all-inclusive argument?


Last edited by Ayatollah Chowmeini: 09-25-2011 at 02:20 PM.
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Old
09-25-2011, 02:17 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
And my point was that if you expect Scott Gomez to be a scorer, no wonder you **** on him so much. He had more than twice the assists that Chris Higgins had last season, but you conveniently omit that from your argument.
Irrelevant to the OP and my response. Read it again.

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09-25-2011, 02:49 PM
  #116
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Irrelevant to the OP and my response. Read it again.
The opening post was what trades did the Habs win. Your point was that Higgins got more goals last season, TWO and THREE teams removed from the team that originally traded for him than Scott Gomez. My point was that Scott Gomez has broken the 20 goal plateau exactly once in the NHL. Scott Gomez is a playmaking center, his bread and butter is assists. If you're going to compare his goal totals, you're not going to appreciate his value as a player.

I was just pointing out that your argument's hinging on goals scored is a very, very faulty way to evaluate this trade.

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09-25-2011, 02:59 PM
  #117
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The worst trade??? No way...the Leafs and Kessel say hi...

It has turned into Gomez for McDonough.....not near as bad as everyone can make it out to be....I'm still not sold on McD at all...let's see how he progresses.
I'm sry, but kessel is easily the best player in that deal. I wouldn't have made it for the simple fact that it was poor timing, but the leafs got the proven 30g scorer, not the bruins.

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09-25-2011, 03:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
The opening post was what trades did the Habs win. Your point was that Higgins got more goals last season, TWO and THREE teams removed from the team that originally traded for him than Scott Gomez. My point was that Scott Gomez has broken the 20 goal plateau exactly once in the NHL. Scott Gomez is a playmaking center, his bread and butter is assists. If you're going to compare his goal totals, you're not going to appreciate his value as a player.

I was just pointing out that your argument's hinging on goals scored is a very, very faulty way to evaluate this trade.
You didn't even read my post or the post I responded to.

The post that I responded to stated that the mtl-nyr trade now boils down to McDonagh for Gomez. Because it doesn't boil down to that, never has, never will
I responded that to think of the trade in those terms you have to completely forget that Higgins was a part of that trade. To forget about Higgins is to forget that his goal production by itself is greater than Gomez.

you read blah blah blah Higgins is better than Gomez which is nowhere in the post or in the thread.

To reverse the trade is to have Higgins and McDonagh part of the Montreal lineup, and Gomez not in the lineup. That (and considerable payroll relief) should be the basis for comparison.

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09-25-2011, 04:45 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I'm sry, but kessel is easily the best player in that deal. I wouldn't have made it for the simple fact that it was poor timing, but the leafs got the proven 30g scorer, not the bruins.
Stay tuned on that deal, Seguin and Hamilton for a Kessel, it's only gonna get worse for the Leafs...not to mention, the Leafs were rebuilding, and re-tooling, there is no way any other GM does that deal, outside of Burkie.

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09-25-2011, 05:37 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
You didn't even read my post or the post I responded to.

The post that I responded to stated that the mtl-nyr trade now boils down to McDonagh for Gomez. Because it doesn't boil down to that, never has, never will
I responded that to think of the trade in those terms you have to completely forget that Higgins was a part of that trade. To forget about Higgins is to forget that his goal production by itself is greater than Gomez.


you read blah blah blah Higgins is better than Gomez which is nowhere in the post or in the thread. (except that you just wrote that 'his goal production by itself is greater than Gomez)

To reverse the trade is to have Higgins and McDonagh part of the Montreal lineup, and Gomez not in the lineup. That (and considerable payroll relief) should be the basis for comparison.
I think it's pretty clear no one has forgotten about Higgins. But using your hypothetical reverse of the trade, let's look at the results.

Season 1-


Gomez- 78 games, 59 points. Post-season: 19 games, 14 points.

Pyatt- 40 games, 5 points. Post-season: 18 games, 4 points.

Went out in the Eastern Conference Finals.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rangers:

Chris Higgins- 55 games, 14 points. Traded at deadline to Calgary with Ales Kotalik for Olli Jokinen and Brandon Prust. It might be worth keeping in mind that Olli Jokinen was in his final year of a 4 year, $21 million dollar contract, making his cap hit $5.25 million dollars that season. Better than Gomez's $7.5, but not exponentially, considering what you get in return.

McDonagh- 0 games, 0 points.

Valentenko- 0 games, 0 points.

Just for the sake of the argument-

Jokinen- 26 games, 15 points.

Prust- 26 games, 9 points.

Rangers- DNQ for playoffs in last game of the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RESULTS OF SEASON 1 POST TRADE:

If you count Jokinen and Prust (which you probably shouldn't) the Rangers got 38 regular season points over 107 man games, clocking in at around .35 PPMG. For the first time since the lockout, the Rangers fail to make the playoffs.

Meanwhile, the Habs got 64 points out of 118 man games. That comes out to .54 PPMG from their end of the trade. Habs made the playoffs and went to the ECF, where Gomez and Pyatt had a combined 18 points in 37 man games, coming out to .49 PPMG (severely weighted down by Pyatt, mind you).

Meanwhile, a young defenseman named PK Subban adds to his 2 regular season starts in the playoffs and a star is born. But no one notices because they're pining for a defenseman who at that point had not played an NHL game and they also really loathe the contract of the team's 2nd line center, who puts up .73 PPG in the playoffs while playing against some of the best centers in the game.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SEASON 2

Habs-

Gomez- 80 GP, 38 points. Post-season: 7 GP, 4 points.

Pyatt- 61 GP, 7 points. Post-season: 7 GP, 0 points.

Habs lose in Game 7 OT to eventual cup-winners.

Rangers-

Higgins- N/A. Signed with Florida Panthers in the off-season.

Valentenko- 0 GP.

McDonagh- 40 GP, 8 points.

For sake of argument-

Jokinen- N/A Signed with Calgary Flames in the off-season.

Prust- 82 GP, 29 points.

Make playoffs, eliminated in 5 games by Washington.

SEASON 2 RESULTS-

Clearly not a great year for Gomez. Prust has a decent season. Both teams eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. McDonagh has a decent rookie season for NYR, with a solid +/- and responsible defensive play. The aforementioned Subban cements himself in the Habs starting line-up and has a far more impressive rookie season. The trade is somewhat of a wash for this season, although it should be noted that Subban more than adequately fills the holes in the Habs defensive ranks. McD would likely not have gotten many games were he still a Hab at this point.

Gomez's $7.36 million cap hit is still a sticking point for many fans. The NYR used the cap room freed up by Gomez to trade for Olli Jokinen in the first season post-trade, who took up $5.25 mil. In the second season, they took on the contract of Bryan McCabe from Florida, still playing on a $5.75 contract from his Toronto days. NYR more than makes up the difference between these contracts by giving Derek Boogaard a contract with a yearly cap hit of $1.625 million. If you add that to McCabe or Jokinen's contract, why it's almost $7 million!

So if one wants to attempt to qualify cap hit as a variable in appraising the trade, Gomez's first year is equal to the chance to trade for a pissed off Olli Jokinen who will then re-sign with his old team after missing in the shootout to put you into the playoffs. In the second season, Gomez prevented us from signing Derek Boogaard and trading for Bryan McCabe. Oh the humanity!

With all this stuff in mind, I really do believe that the Gomez trade is a win so far. If Richards really clicks in NYR and they become a serious contender (ECF or better), with McD improving on his decent rookie season, I might consider the argument that the cap room is enough of a negative to make this trade a wash. But at the moment, I consider this a definite Habs win for the number of reasons elucidated above.

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09-25-2011, 05:58 PM
  #121
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Re: Gomez trade


Let's see, we gave up:

A) A huge amount of cap space (for numerous years)that possibly hindered (and will continue to hinder) us from acquiring other players

B) Assets in the form of young players that we could have used in other trades or to plug current holes which we eventually ended up filling by giving up even more assets

For a player who is in decline who has brought absolutely nothing to the table (sorry, small spurts of effectiveness means nothing when taken out of total games played).

Let's also not forget that by taking Gomez off thier hands we indirectly helped the Rangers get Richards.

How anyone can still defend this trade is beyond me. I still laugh at the old argument that we won it because we got Tom Pyatt! lol...

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09-25-2011, 06:01 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
Gomez's $7.36 million cap hit is still a sticking point for many fans. The NYR used the cap room freed up by Gomez to trade for Olli Jokinen in the first season post-trade, who took up $5.25 mil. In the second season, they took on the contract of Bryan McCabe from Florida, still playing on a $5.75 contract from his Toronto days. NYR more than makes up the difference between these contracts by giving Derek Boogaard a contract with a yearly cap hit of $1.625 million. If you add that to McCabe or Jokinen's contract, why it's almost $7 million!

So if one wants to attempt to qualify cap hit as a variable in appraising the trade, Gomez's first year is equal to the chance to trade for a pissed off Olli Jokinen who will then re-sign with his old team after missing in the shootout to put you into the playoffs. In the second season, Gomez prevented us from signing Derek Boogaard and trading for Bryan McCabe. Oh the humanity!
On June 30, 2009 Gomez and his 7.3 million cap hit was traded and the cap space was used the next day July 1, 2009 when the Rangers signed Marian Gaborik for a 7.5 million cap hit.

Gaboriks first year was:
76GP 42G 44A 86Pts
2nd year:
62GP 22G 26A 48Pts

Jokinen and 5.25 million cap hit and Prust 0.5 Cap hit was almost a wash with the players they were dealt for Kotalik 3.0 million and Higgins 2.25 million.

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09-25-2011, 06:03 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXPOS123 View Post
Re: Gomez trade


Let's see, we gave up:

A) A huge amount of cap space (for numerous years)that possibly hindered (and will continue to hinder) us from acquiring other players

B) Assets in the form of young players that we could have used in other trades or to plug current holes which we eventually ended up filling by giving up even more assets

For a player who is in decline who has brought absolutely nothing to the table (sorry, small spurts of effectiveness means nothing when taken out of total games played).

Let's also not forget that by taking Gomez off thier hands we indirectly helped the Rangers get Richards.

How anyone can still defend this trade is beyond me. I still laugh at the old argument that we won it because we got Tom Pyatt! lol...
Montreal going into the season with 4 million in cap space just ruins this point.

And why do people add in other players to the trade, last time i checked Richards and Gaborik weren't involved in the trade.

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09-25-2011, 06:38 PM
  #124
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Montreal going into the season with 4 million in cap space just ruins this point.

And why do people add in other players to the trade, last time i checked Richards and Gaborik weren't involved in the trade.
Wrong. You have to take Richards and Gabrorik into account because that is the reality - if we hadn't taken him off their hands, they would not have been able to get these two players.

It's like syaing Boston didn't win the trade with the Leafs because Seguin and Hamilton weren't part of the trade.

As for you other point, you conveniently forgot to mention how at the trade deadline we couldn't make other moves because we were up against the cap.

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09-25-2011, 06:47 PM
  #125
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Wrong. You have to take Richards and Gabrorik into account because that is the reality - if we hadn't taken him off their hands, they would not have been able to get these two players.

It's like syaing Boston didn't win the trade with the Leafs because Seguin and Hamilton weren't part of the trade.

As for you other point, you conveniently forgot to mention how at the trade deadline we couldn't make other moves because we were up against the cap.
That doesn't make sense. You take into account cap hits absorbed in the Gomez deal and what impact that ought to have, if any, on his trade value, but you do not take into account what the original team does with the new cap space. For all we know, the Rangers would have buried Gomez and signed Richards/Gaborik anyhow. We can't begin to speculate how dumping Gomez 'helped' the Rangers obtain X or Y player because there are far too many variables. It's the equivalent of Hab fans claiming that, absent Gomez, Cammalleri and Gionta wouldn't have signed. We can't make that claim--even if it's more of a direct link than the Rangers with Richards/Gaborik--because we aren't given sufficient information on Cammalleri/Gionta's respective situations to actually know if that made a difference.

Your analogy to the Bos/Tor trade doesn't work because Toronto gave up specific assets there, even if they weren't players, and those assets carry specific value--equivalent to that of prospects (like McDonagh). While cap space is an asset, it's not a specific asset like a top draft pick, and there are numerous ways of creating cap space (see: burying Redden).

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