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1927-28 stats from New York Times

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09-22-2011, 03:53 PM
  #1
nik jr
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1927-28 stats from New York Times

3rd question from the bottom on this site says that NYT published unofficial TOI, shots and sv% numbers.

Quote:
Detailed statistics for the 1927-28 NHL season, which included unofficial tallies of shots by skaters and against goaltenders, and ice time numbers, were printed in what newspaper?

A: New York Times. These stats were a wonderful find a few years ago. Aurel Joliat took the most shots in the league; Alec Connell led in save percentage. Top defencemen like Buck Boucher, Eddie Shore and Lionel Hitchman played over 50 minutes per game.
After a search, i learned that hockeydb.com has added the sv% numbers to their site. That site said Connell led the NHL in sv%, but hockeydb.com says Hainsworth.

Goalie Games Shots Saves GA SV% Minutes SA/60
Hainsworth 44 1419 1371 48 .966 273031.1
Connell 44 1458 1401 57 .961 276031.7
Worters 44 1711 1635 76 .956 274037.5
Winkler 44 1469 1399 70 .952 278031.7
Chabot 44 1621 1542 79 .951 273035.6
Holmes 44 1460 1381 79 .946 274032.0
Roach 43 1610 1522 88 .945 269035.9
Benedict 44 1349 1273 76 .944 2690 30.0
Miller 28 1162 1085 77 .934 172140.5
Forbes 17 765 714 51 .933 98046.8
Gardiner 40 1486 1372 114 .923 242036.8
Lehman 4 145 125 20 .862 25034.8
Walsh 1 18 17 1 .944 2054.0
Himes 1 9 9 0 1.00 1928.4
Ironstone 1 44 44 0 1.00 7037.7
Ace Bailey* 1 9 9 0 1.00 ??

*Bailey was a right wing, but probably played goal during a penalty.

New York Americans (Miller, Forbes, Himes) allowed over 40 shots per game.



Does anyone here have the other numbers, or have the ability to get them? hockeydb.com says they are from April, 1, 1928 NYT, page 164.

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09-22-2011, 05:22 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Hah. I remember that quiz. Barely. I think the Connell answer was taken from Ultimate Hockey?

Hainsworth is the right answer. I have a PDF of the full article (showing ice time, shots on goals for skaters as well). I won't share it here since the NYT still claims copyright over it.

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09-24-2011, 06:47 PM
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nik jr
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thanks, iain

i guess i will have to find them some other way.

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09-25-2011, 12:09 AM
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Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
thanks, iain

i guess i will have to find them some other way.
You can get the article from the New York Times website, but you have to pay for it.

You can always try your public library. If they don't have the Times on microfilm they might be able to get it on inter-library loan for you. Edit: Although I just checked your location, so maybe that's not a possibility.

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09-25-2011, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
*Bailey was a right wing, but probably played goal during a penalty.
Why?

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09-25-2011, 09:09 AM
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Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
Why?
Because at the time, goaltenders actually served their own penalties, and teams generally did not have a second goaltender available at the game. They sometimes had a second on the roster, but they only dressed one.

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09-25-2011, 09:36 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Stats Do Not Balance

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Because at the time, goaltenders actually served their own penalties, and teams generally did not have a second goaltender available at the game. They sometimes had a second on the roster, but they only dressed one.
1927-28 Leafs, stats do not balance.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/TOR/1928.html

0 PIM for the 2 goalies and an overage of minutes even allowing for OT.

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09-25-2011, 10:45 AM
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Iain Fyffe
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Bailey should have one shot against and one save, according to the Times summary. It was Normie Himes that faced 9 shots (in 19 minutes). Presumably Himes replaced an injured goalie, Joe Miller (since again, they didn't dress a second). Bailey still looks like a penalty replacement, one that has not been captured in the official stats. Or at the least the stats used in the SIHR database. This wouldn't surprise me, because goalie penalties are often missed, and who replaced them is missed even more frequently.

Just because something's listed on hockey-reference doesn't mean it's 100% accurate. Even SIHR, and presumably the NHL, have missed this one, if it is indeed accurate.

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09-25-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
0 PIM for the 2 goalies and an overage of minutes even allowing for OT.
OT was a full ten minutes (no sudden death), so there's no overage of minutes to explain. Just the missed penalty.

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09-25-2011, 11:01 AM
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Iain Fyffe
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I've posted to the SIHR mailing list about the possibly missed penalty, to see if anyone there knows anything about it.

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09-25-2011, 07:08 PM
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I heard back from a reliable researcher who has gone through that season in detail and never came across anything to indicate that Bailey played any goal that year. No penalties to Toronto netminders either. So it's still a mystery, and may never be resolved.

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09-25-2011, 07:37 PM
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Thank You

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I heard back from a reliable researcher who has gone through that season in detail and never came across anything to indicate that Bailey played any goal that year. No penalties to Toronto netminders either. So it's still a mystery, and may never be resolved.
Normie Himes played goal as an injury replacement for the Americans goalie, December 5, 1927:

http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com...mie-himes.html

but it was not against the Leafs so score sheet error gets eliminated as a possible source for the Ace Bailey mystery.

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09-25-2011, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
Goalie Games Shots Saves GA SV% Minutes SA/60
Hainsworth 44 1419 1371 48 .966 273031.1
Connell 44 1458 1401 57 .961 276031.7
Worters 44 1711 1635 76 .956 274037.5
Winkler 44 1469 1399 70 .952 278031.7
Chabot 44 1621 1542 79 .951 273035.6
Holmes 44 1460 1381 79 .946 274032.0
Roy Worters looks good, facing over 250 more shots over the season yet with as good a save percentage as any of the best, third in the tight bunch. It was one of only four seasons he ever had with a team that recorded a winning record (19-17-8), and his 10 shutouts that season as a Pittsburgh Pirate was only topped in his career by the 13 he had the following season for the New York Americans. To face a half dozen shots more than the other teams' goalies yet get 10 shutouts suggests either he was great or else the team played inconsistently defensively, sometimes good, often not. The truth may be in the middle. And how many of those many more shots he faced were quality shots? (He did refuse to sign with Pittsburgh after this season, necessitating the trade to NY, where he went to immediately win the Hart trophy. It was wise of him to refuse to re-sign for a loser Pittsburgh franchise). On the flip side, better teams defensively often give up lesser quality shots. Clearly, he had a retro-Vezina trophy finalist candidate type of season in 27/28, though he didn't get the Vezina statistically until three years later.


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09-26-2011, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Roy Worters looks good, facing over 250 more shots over the season yet with as good a save percentage as any of the best, third in the tight bunch. It was one of only four seasons he ever had with a team that recorded a winning record (19-17-8), and his 10 shutouts that season as a Pittsburgh Pirate was only topped in his career by the 13 he had the following season for the New York Americans. To face a half dozen shots more than the other teams' goalies yet get 10 shutouts suggests either he was great or else the team played inconsistently defensively, sometimes good, often not. The truth may be in the middle. And how many of those many more shots he faced were quality shots? (He did refuse to sign with Pittsburgh after this season, necessitating the trade to NY, where he went to immediately win the Hart trophy. It was wise of him to refuse to re-sign for a loser Pittsburgh franchise). On the flip side, better teams defensively often give up lesser quality shots. Clearly, he had a retro-Vezina trophy finalist candidate type of season in 27/28, though he didn't get the Vezina statistically until three years later.
worters may have led the NHL in sv% in '29, based on numbers posted by 70s and overpass.

with about 11 games remaining, worters had .974 facing 41.3 shots/60 minutes. flat walsh had .978, but only played 10 games.

average at that point in the season was .963.

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Old
09-26-2011, 12:18 AM
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seventieslord
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Wow, every time something new comes out involving Worters, he looks better than he used to.

Gardiner's numbers are awful by comparison, and his sog/gp is around the same.

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