HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Jagr Thread Part II: Moves Like Jagr

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-27-2011, 10:28 AM
  #51
JagerPuck
Registered User
 
JagerPuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: the 215
Country: United States
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to JagerPuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If preseason games were foreshadow of much of anything, Jon Sim would have been an All-Star.
Vomit

JagerPuck is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:36 AM
  #52
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
What a false equivalency....

Preseason can be illusory but to place Jagr even at 39 on par with a scrub like Sim or even Maneluk is just taking it to the extreme...

If Jagr is healthy he will produce....there should be no illusions about that.

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:37 AM
  #53
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
What a false equivalency....

Preseason can be illusory but to place Jagr even at 39 on par with a scrub like Sim or even Maneluk is just taking it to the extreme...
What a misread of the point...

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:40 AM
  #54
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What a misread of the point...
I realize whatever nuanced point you make trumps any interpretation anyway

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:42 AM
  #55
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I realize whatever nuanced point you make trumps any interpretation anyway
There was no nuance to it, you created some comparison where none existed.

Preseason is worth jack for going forward, thus Jon Sim's career (amongst others). If Jagr had zero points, whatever. If he has 20 pts in 5 games, whatever.

It's the *ing preseason.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:47 AM
  #56
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If preseason games were foreshadow of much of anything, Jon Sim would have been an All-Star.
I don't think that's quite fair. I think the difference being that Jagr played against pretty much NHL opposition last night and still looked like he was in a different league. In earlier pre-season games I can understand.

Spongolium* is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:48 AM
  #57
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There was no nuance to it, you created some comparison where none existed.

Preseason is worth jack for going forward, thus Jon Sim's career (amongst others). If Jagr had zero points, whatever. If he has 20 pts in 5 games, whatever.

It's the *ing preseason.
That's your opinion of course...doesn't mean it's gospel.

There is a little more weight to preseason with respect to Jagr's case. Lots of questions about how he would perform in an NHL environment again. Watching him last night ...preseason or not ...we saw he still has what it takes to perform at a high level. His positioning on the PP and his shot were not pedestrian. It's fair to draw some insight into his performance in the preseason..that's all. You just outright poo poo it which is an extreme position.

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 10:53 AM
  #58
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
That's your opinion of course...doesn't mean it's gospel.

There is a little more weight to preseason with respect to Jagr's case. Lots of questions about how he would perform in an NHL environment again. Watching him last night ...preseason or not ...we saw he still has what it takes to perform at a high level. His positioning on the PP and his shot were not pedestrian. It's fair to draw some insight into his performance in the preseason..that's all. You just outright poo poo it which is an extreme position.
Matt read has looked fantastic, do you think he's that good?

My point could actually be extended to the first 20 or so games of the season given how sloppy NHL teams are at the start of the year.

There really is nothing extreme about dismissing the value of the preseason if you put down the Kool-Aid and look at history.

And before we get to this being critical, I'm on record for thinking he's going to have a good year for us. However, whether he can put up points against crappy preseason defensive coverages and PKs is indicative of very little that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I don't think that's quite fair. I think the difference being that Jagr played against pretty much NHL opposition last night and still looked like he was in a different league. In earlier pre-season games I can understand.
Dude, NHL teams play dog **** defense in the preseason, and for some time into the regular season. Remember Giroux getting breakaways every single game practically last October?

Drawing conclusions from the preseason is even more foolish than reading too much into the first 20 games of the season.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:00 AM
  #59
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Matt read has looked fantastic, do you think he's that good?

My point could actually be extended to the first 20 or so games of the season given how sloppy NHL teams are at the start of the year.

There really is nothing extreme about dismissing the value of the preseason if you put down the Kool-Aid and look at history.

And before we get to this being critical, I'm on record for thinking he's going to have a good year for us. However, whether he can put up points against crappy preseason defensive coverages and PKs is indicative of very little that matters.
My contention again is that in Jagr's case there is added relevancy given that he's been away from the game. I don't consider that an extreme position. That is all...no sense trying to argue whose OPINION is least worst. Some people may agree with you and some with me....it all depends on the context of the situation which again in Jagr's case takes on more relevancy.

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:00 AM
  #60
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, NHL teams play dog **** defense in the preseason, and for some time into the regular season. Remember Giroux getting breakaways every single game practically last October?

Drawing conclusions from the preseason is even more foolish than reading too much into the first 20 games of the season.
Teams don't necessarily tighten up their defense after October. What happens after October is refs start to let more obstruction slip therefore allowing defensemen to hook, grab and trip more often.

Just like how every team will shore up and tighten up their defense and players will pick up their intensity, Jagr will pick up his intensity as well. What makes you think Jagr is giving it a 100% effort in preseason?

Jagr himself says he's using the preseason to readjust to the NHL style of play, the timing.

Someone like Jagr can dominate any league, any rink size, be it preseason, regular season or playoffs.

So the reason why Jagr's stellar play in preseason is important is because he is showing us that he can still play on the smaller rink. Do you think that suddenly players are going to go from Dr. Banner to the Incredible Hulk once the regular season stars and Jagr is going to look like a pedestrian? What is the point of playing preseason at all then? Let teams just have training camp and let all the decisions based on chemistry, lines and who makes the team be made then.

If you haven't noticed, preseason is becoming a lot more entertaining and important than it used to be. This isn't the 90's when preseason was being played like All-Star games. Just the intensity and physicality alone is closer to the regular season than the All-Star game. Sure it won't be as easy in the regular season but Jagr knows that. He says he expects it to get harder and when it does Jagr will work harder.

I am really, really interested to see what your arguments are going to be come December and Jagr is top 10 in scoring.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-27-2011 at 11:17 AM.
livewell68 is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:02 AM
  #61
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Drawing conclusions from the preseason is even more foolish than reading too much into the first 20 games of the season.
Drawing conclusions is not prudent but insight in how one might perform going forward is fair considering the situation...

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:05 AM
  #62
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
That's your opinion of course...doesn't mean it's gospel.

There is a little more weight to preseason with respect to Jagr's case. Lots of questions about how he would perform in an NHL environment again. Watching him last night ...preseason or not ...we saw he still has what it takes to perform at a high level. His positioning on the PP and his shot were not pedestrian. It's fair to draw some insight into his performance in the preseason..that's all. You just outright poo poo it which is an extreme position.


What was pedestrian though was the amount of time and space he was given to shoot the puck. Which he's not likely to get in a meaningful game. Jester's point in earlier posts was that in one pre season, Jon Sim looked like a 50 goal scorer, not comparing the two players. I think Jagr's biggest impact will be on the PP. But he will see far tighter checking and far less time and space once the games begin to count.

VanSciver is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
  #63
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,398
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Drawing conclusions is not prudent but insight in how one might perform going forward is fair considering the situation...
NO IT ISN'T. JESTER IS KING OF THE INTERNET. WHAT HE SAYS GOES! duh.

DrinkFightFlyers is online now  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
  #64
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
What was pedestrian though was the amount of time and space he was given to shoot the puck. Which he's not likely to get in a meaningful game. Jester's point in earlier posts was that in one pre season, Jon Sim looked like a 50 goal scorer, not comparing the two players. I think Jagr's biggest impact will be on the PP. But he will see far tighter checking and far less time and space once the games begin to count.
Don't necessarily disagree..teams will adjust to him and he will have to continue to readjust himself. However, on a PP you tend to have more time and space considering the other team is a man down ..right? I mean that's how it works more times than not doesn't it?

My concern with him is more 5 on 5...he will be limited and he'll have to work through the tighter game and smaller rink. Like he said in his interview as a 250lb player he needs to do things on the fly and not start and stop too much. His turns have to be tighter too which he said he is adjusting. With G and JVR ..5 on 5 he will have some more room however.

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:13 AM
  #65
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Drawing conclusions is not prudent but insight in how one might perform going forward is fair considering the situation...
And, again, there is a wealth of empirical evidence that drawing insight going forward from these games is a waste of time.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:13 AM
  #66
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Don't necessarily disagree..teams will adjust to him and he will have to continue to readjust himself. However, on a PP you tend to have more time and space considering the other team is a man down ..right? I mean that's how it works more times than not doesn't it?

My concern with him is more 5 on 5...he will be limited and he'll have to work through the tighter game and smaller rink. Like he said in his interview as a 250lb player he needs to do things on the fly and not start and stop too much. His turns have to be tighter too which he said he is adjusting. With G and JVR ..5 on 5 he will have some more room however.
What's a top PP% in the League? 20%. There isn't that much space, and certainly not what Jagr had last night. Don't get me wrong, the ability to finish is still there. 5 on 5, Jagr looked very average. He's going to do some damage on the PP. But I still see 60 pts from Jagr.

VanSciver is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:15 AM
  #67
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Don't necessarily disagree..teams will adjust to him and he will have to continue to readjust himself. However, on a PP you tend to have more time and space considering the other team is a man down ..right? I mean that's how it works more times than not doesn't it?

My concern with him is more 5 on 5...he will be limited and he'll have to work through the tighter game and smaller rink. Like he said in his interview as a 250lb player he needs to do things on the fly and not start and stop too much. His turns have to be tighter too which he said he is adjusting. With G and JVR ..5 on 5 he will have some more room however.
A regular season, NHL PK doesn't allow Jagr to wade into the low slot and receive a one-timer pass like that. That was just atrocious coverage by the Rags PK.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:16 AM
  #68
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
NO IT ISN'T. JESTER IS KING OF THE INTERNET. WHAT HE SAYS GOES! duh.
What's awesome about the Internet is the direct correlation between intelligence and the use of caps lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Teams don't necessarily tighten up their defense after October. What happens after October is refs start to let more obstruction slip therefore allowing defensemen to hook, grab and trip more often.
BS. Team defense improves by leaps and bounds as the season progresses. October and November are a complete **** show defensively every single year, and then teams begin to settle into midseason form and the systems begin to work more cohesively with everyone on the same page. That's why every year you have some surprise teams early, and then the cream rises come January, February, and onward.

As far as officiating, they certainly relax as the season progresses, but not to the extent you are making it out. What actually happens is defense becomes less sloppy and players are in a position where they have to obstruct with far less frequency. A big part of the penalties early in the year is that the players aren't up to snuff.

Quote:
Just like how every team will shore up and tighten up their defense and players will pick up their intensity, Jagr will pick up his intensity as well. What makes you think Jagr is giving it a 100% effort in preseason?
I don't... but this also would contradict your belief that Jagr is using the preseason as the science experiment that you're claiming he is. Offense ALWAYS has the advantage early in the year, and defense tends to have the advantage later in the year.

Quote:
Jagr himself says he's using the preseason to readjust to the NHL style of play, the timing.

Someone like Jagr can dominate any league, any rink size, be it preseason, regular season or playoffs.
Less licking, dude. It's unbecoming.

Quote:
So the reason why Jagr's stellar play in preseason is important is because he is showing us that he can still play on the smaller rink. Do you think that suddenly players are going to go from Dr. Banner to the Incredible Hulk once the regular season stars and Jagr is going to look like a pedestrian? What is the point of playing preseason at all then? Let teams just have training camp and let all the decisions based on chemistry, lines and who makes the team be made then.
No, I think players are going to get into midseason form and they aren't going to be letting Jagr get his shot off in the low slot. If they let him do that, he'll be scoring 30 goals until he's 60.

Quote:
If you haven't noticed, preseason is becoming a lot more entertaining and important than it used to be. This isn't the 90's when preseason was being played like All-Star games. Just the intensity and physicality alone is closer to the regular season than the All-Star game. Sure it won't be as easy in the regular season but Jagr knows that. He says he expects it to get harder and when it does Jagr will work harder.
Ah, what planet have you been on? Preseason has changed very little... it's sloppy hockey with a fair number of guys going all out trying to win jobs.

Quote:
I am really, really interested to see what your arguments are going to be come December and Jagr is top 10 in scoring.
That he's having a fantastic year. You continue to act like folks are denying this possibility, when you won't find a single quote suggesting that. It's really fascinating how your man crush gives you a completely skewed view of the world... it's like an experiment in how bias affects perception of reality.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:24 AM
  #69
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
What's a top PP% in the League? 20%. There isn't that much space, and certainly not what Jagr had last night. Don't get me wrong, the ability to finish is still there. 5 on 5, Jagr looked very average. He's going to do some damage on the PP. But I still see 60 pts from Jagr.
Were you watching the same game? Where did Jagr look average on the 5-on-5? He set up numeour scoring chances for his teammates 5-on-5. Almost everytime he stepped on the ice last night he created scoring chances. Did you not watch him set up that goal? That was 5-on-5, he didn't look too average then.

livewell68 is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:30 AM
  #70
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
But I still see 60 pts from Jagr.
That's about what I see and frankly don't care how he gets there....just that he does and maybe gets more although doubt he'll play 82 games.

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:33 AM
  #71
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A regular season, NHL PK doesn't allow Jagr to wade into the low slot and receive a one-timer pass like that. That was just atrocious coverage by the Rags PK.
Maybe not a team in the top ten of the league in PK. Even then it depends on the number of PP opportunities the Flyers get even among the better teams in the league. The law of averages is still in play.

I'm quite certain there will plenty of opportunities for Jagr to have the time and space to capitalize because of atrocious coverage.

Anyway..I'll defer to Jags6868 on this Jagr debate...apparently he has more patience than I do for circular reasoning..

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:38 AM
  #72
kicksave27
Registered User
 
kicksave27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,249
vCash: 500
He still has vision & a shot, and he'll probably have Giroux & Voracek feeding him crazy passes. I like it

kicksave27 is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:40 AM
  #73
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Maybe not a team in the top ten of the league in PK. Even then it depends on the number of PP opportunities the Flyers get even among the better teams in the league. The law of averages is still in play.

I'm quite certain there will plenty of opportunities for Jagr to have the time and space to capitalize because of atrocious coverage.

Anyway..I'll defer to Jags6868 on this Jagr debate...apparently he has more patience than I do for circular reasoning..
Jagr is going to get his on the PP, but that was a clear example of something that should never happen if the defenders are in midseason form.



The entire unit is watching the puck (you also aren't going to go against 3 man PKs twice all that frequently in the regular season). That stuff gets corrected as things go along... and Torts yells at people. Jagr will score that goal 7 out of 10 times.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:41 AM
  #74
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
He still has vision & a shot, and he'll probably have Giroux & Voracek feeding him crazy passes. I like it
Yeah, he'll probably have that shot til the day he dies. It's a truly wicked release.

Jester is offline  
Old
09-27-2011, 11:43 AM
  #75
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I don't think that's quite fair. I think the difference being that Jagr played against pretty much NHL opposition last night and still looked like he was in a different league. In earlier pre-season games I can understand.
What? The Rangers had pretty much an AHL squad last night (they left for Europe today I believe, which I assume would be the reason to rest so many regulars), only fielding the required minimum of 8 regulars I believe. On defense they had Girardi, McDonagh (40 games in NHL last season), Sauer, Del Zotto (47), Erixon and Bickel. Hardly the strongest setup they could have had out there.

Among forwards they had Dubinsky, Avery, Boyle, Christensen, Anisimov and maybe Zuccarello-Aasen that you could count to NHL players. The rest was AHL fodder.

mirimon is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.