HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Maurice Richard and the Scoring Title

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-10-2011, 09:46 PM
  #26
Peter9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 393
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I think at the heart of it you will find a gigantic persecution complex in Quebec which is of course a big factor in Canadian social and political history but also part of the entire legend of the Montreal Canadiens.

Scoring errors happened, but they happened everywhere. Hell, they still happen today, every year I see goals and assists credited to guys, only for the scoring to be altered later on in the game or even overnight due to video evidence.
Well that displays singular ignorance of history. There was a great deal of discrimination against the French-speaking population that had nothing to do with complexes. They were looked down on as inferior beings. I was there. Were you?

Peter9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-10-2011, 10:11 PM
  #27
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I think at the heart of it you will find a gigantic persecution complex in Quebec which is of course a big factor in Canadian social and political history but also part of the entire legend of the Montreal Canadiens.

Scoring errors happened, but they happened everywhere. Hell, they still happen today, every year I see goals and assists credited to guys, only for the scoring to be altered later on in the game or even overnight due to video evidence.

Shane Doan here

Let's face the facts here Richard was a goal scorer 1st and foremost and there is alot of Legend and mythical status going on here still IMO.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-11-2011, 06:21 AM
  #28
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
 
TheMoreYouKnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Eire
Posts: 9,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
Well that displays singular ignorance of history. There was a great deal of discrimination against the French-speaking population that had nothing to do with complexes. They were looked down on as inferior beings. I was there. Were you?
I don't wanna turn this into a big political argument, but given the fact that the French were the losers in a battle for supremacy between two colonial powers, I think they have very little reason to complain about their more than fair overall treatment.

TheMoreYouKnow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-11-2011, 07:11 AM
  #29
JaymzB
Registered User
 
JaymzB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Toronto
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 2,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I don't wanna turn this into a big political argument, but given the fact that the French were the losers in a battle for supremacy between two colonial powers, I think they have very little reason to complain about their more than fair overall treatment.
Wait, because the French Monarchy lost a battle in the 18th century to the British Monarchy, that justifies French Canadiens getting treated like crap in Richard's time? Good thing you don't want to turn this political discussion...

JaymzB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-11-2011, 07:41 AM
  #30
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
 
TheMoreYouKnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Eire
Posts: 9,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Wait, because the French Monarchy lost a battle in the 18th century to the British Monarchy, that justifies French Canadiens getting treated like crap in Richard's time? Good thing you don't want to turn this political discussion...
I am talking about realities here, the Quebec Act and the Constitutional Act were extremely generous to the French in Canada and about as fair a settlement as the French colonists could have expected from the foe who had defeated them.

The British in Canada acted with the kind of respect and pragmatism towards the French which the French themselves often lacked both towards ethnic minorities in France itself and the peoples they dealt with in their numerous wars of conquest around the globe.

It just boggles the mind that somehow some interested parties created a narrative in which the French are somehow transformed into the Jews of the North American continent.

Sorry about that, it has little to do with Maurice Richard but I will answer when called out.

TheMoreYouKnow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-11-2011, 02:07 PM
  #31
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,112
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I don't wanna turn this into a big political argument, but given the fact that the French were the losers in a battle for supremacy between two colonial powers, I think they have very little reason to complain about their more than fair overall treatment.
What an absolutely ridiculous post.

jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-11-2011, 03:36 PM
  #32
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
I understand margin of error, but giving an assist to someone who wasn't on the ice, after it was touched multiple times by other players?
Fair enough, but Gretzky had 137 points that year. Perhaps there was a mistake on this play but how do you explain the other 136 points he got during the season as a teenager? It was an isolated mistake in my opinion. And he still didn't win the Art Ross let's not forget

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-11-2011, 03:45 PM
  #33
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Really? What do you think makes for a better and more marketable story, a 10 year old vet winning or a hot new rookie winning?
Gretzky wasn't revered in 1980 the way he is today remember. You would have found far more respect league wide for Dionne if only because he had been around longer. Gretzky still had some very sharp critics and let's face it, he was a star on a bad team that year which squeaked into the postseason. Dionne was on the Triple Crown line which gained a lot of press. There were still hockey people, smart hockey people, who thought Gretzky wouldn't last in the NHL.

Besides, if you are going to do a fix shouldn't it work? Dionne won the Art Ross didn't he? Unless you think the NHL purposely told a scorekeeper from Maple Leaf Gardens to give Gretzky a phantom assist, there is nothing here to write about

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2011, 08:09 PM
  #34
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
...was this just to give more drama to the film or is this based on fact?
Pretty sure the writers' simply inserted it into the film for dramatic effect. Just another Tall Tale told over too many stubbies of Whitehorse Lager up at Scuttlebutt Lodge. I love a good conspiracy theory but this one would be impossible to execute & then mask. The odd mistake here & there sure, but nothing on the scale inferred....

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2011, 10:16 PM
  #35
Axxellien
Registered User
 
Axxellien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,456
vCash: 500
..Maurice Richard:

..Represented ``Le Reveil De La Grande Noirceur``..The start of the Quiet Revolution. He carried the pride and the aspirations of a people on his shoulders..A symbol of success in the face of adversity..

Axxellien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2011, 10:34 PM
  #36
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I am talking about realities here, the Quebec Act and the Constitutional Act were extremely generous to the French in Canada and about as fair a settlement as the French colonists could have expected from the foe who had defeated them.

The British in Canada acted with the kind of respect and pragmatism towards the French which the French themselves often lacked both towards ethnic minorities in France itself and the peoples they dealt with in their numerous wars of conquest around the globe.

It just boggles the mind that somehow some interested parties created a narrative in which the French are somehow transformed into the Jews of the North American continent.

Sorry about that, it has little to do with Maurice Richard but I will answer when called out.
It's all relative though... Yes, the French were treated much better than most who were defeated but that doesn't mean they were treated well.

Back in the 40s and 50s the French had a real hard time finding a decent job as Montreal was dominated by the English. There were CEOs who said publicly that they would never hire a Frenchman. And outside of Quebec the French were held in contempt by many. It was a completely different climate than it is today and these conditions (rightly or wrongly) led to the Quiet Revolution.

Believe me, I have a personal stake in this debate. I was not a fan of the PQ by any stretch and saw many of my friends and family uprooted and move away before it happened to my own family in the mid 80s. I wasn't happy about leaving or all of the referendums that took place... BUT to sit there and deny that there were reasons for the French to be upset and set this whole thing in motion is to deny history or be ignorant of the facts.

Now, back to the core point of this thread. Yes, I absolutely do believe that it is entirely possible that Richard was robbed of at least one scoring title. His being French Canadian certainly wouldn't have helped his cause. That film was not the first time that I had heard about his being robbed either.

At the end of the day though I don't think it really matters either way. He was one of the greatest players of all time and a scoring title wouldn't change this fact.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 12:29 AM
  #37
Weztex
Registered User
 
Weztex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,267
vCash: 500
There was a certain belief in Montreal around that time, that Howe was being giver phantom assists at the Olympia. The way i remember it, the movie does not present that as a fact, but only illustrates the existence of that sentiment.

Weztex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 09:57 AM
  #38
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,797
vCash: 500
i think pnep once posted that habs had more assists on their goals in '50s than any other team.




i found recently in a newspaper a 1936 game (chicago vs maroons) in which 4a were awarded on a goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette: 3-13-1936
Conacher's penalty left a gap for 2 power play goals in the 1st period, and on Earl Seibert's goal, 4 assists were given, to Mush March, Paul Thompson, Doc Romnes and Gottselig, as they passed the puck around before setting up the defenceman. Gottselig's goal was aided by March, Seibert and Thompson.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en -- pg14

ottawa citizen newspaper also reported 4a on that goal.


hockey summary project has some goals from the '20s with more than 2 assists. sometimes the goalscorer was given assists on his own goal, according to HSP, and sometimes the same player got 2a on the same goal. http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19190023



Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Reckoning is correct. However a more detailed explanation is in order.

Today the official scorer in each NHL arena is positioned so that he has the best possible viewing angles with access to the latest technology. Everything is recorded on tape so a review is very simple.

Years ago, well after the O6 era this was not the case. Official scorers had to deal with poor viewing angles without the ability of review. As such a margin of error is to be expected.
based on video i have seen (some from '20s), the lighting in arenas was also dimmer. some of it is the cameras, but i think there is also less light.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 12:00 PM
  #39
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Moscow
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 8,269
vCash: 500
I think it is very unlikely Richard faced some sort of invisible bias when scoring points for a few reasons. I will make a table to illustrate my point
SeasonLeague leader League leader points Richardís AssistsRichardís Pointsassists need% of assists missed 
1944-45Elmer Lach (MTL) 802373835% 
1946-47Max Bentley (CBH)72267124% 
1950-51Gordie Howe (DET) 8624662186% 
1952-53Gordie Howe (DET)95336135106% 
1953-54Gordie Howe (DET)8130671447% 
1954-55Bernie Geoffrion (MTL) 75367416% 
1955-56Jean Beliveau (MTL) 8833711855% 

In my opinion just looking at these stats illustrates why it was unlikely he faced an invisible bias regarding assists. The 1946-47 season is the only possibility needing just two assists to win the scoring title and we all know what happened in the 1954-55 season. It is impossible in my opinion for Richard to be cheated out of the amount of assists needed to win or for players to be given the amount of assists they got to win. The discrepancy is far too high not for everyone to ask questions

Also if I recall correctly, Montreal had the most assists per goal during this era (but
i can't find those stats)

finchster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 12:17 PM
  #40
saskganesh
Registered User
 
saskganesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the Annex
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
This obviously isn't the whole basis for the conspiracy, but it is observable proof in a game where he was fighting neck and neck for the scoring title.
Yeah, but the establishment, in so much as these things can be proved, "wanted" Dionne to win. The league had already changed the rules so that Gretzky would not win the Calder.

But this was not an anti-Gretzky thing. More of an anti-WHA thing. That motive was certainly there. But for Gretzky? Why?

saskganesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 01:52 PM
  #41
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
There was a certain belief in Montreal around that time, that Howe was being giver phantom assists at the Olympia. The way i remember it, the movie does not present that as a fact, but only illustrates the existence of that sentiment.
Why would notoriously cheap "Jolly" Jack Adams condone (if he was aware of it, which he surely mustve' been if it was going on) the Stats/Score keepers padding of Howes' numbers when there could well have been bonuses' in Gordie's contract if he reached certain plateaus' and or if not, become problematical when it came to re-negotiate the next one?. Now we all know the story about how every fall Adams would present Howe with a contract & tell him to fill in the amount he wanted to be paid, #9 sheepishly giving himself extremely conservative increases, but still.... And for what; so Gordie Howe could be held up as the banner of the leagues & Detroits pre-eminent superstar, a shining example of english Canada's hockey superiority in producing talent?. Yet another dirty trick in the subjugation of the french?. Diabolical if true.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 03:47 PM
  #42
TasteofFlames
Registered User
 
TasteofFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Athens, GA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,871
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Why would notoriously cheap "Jolly" Jack Adams condone (if he was aware of it, which he surely mustve' been if it was going on) the Stats/Score keepers padding of Howes' numbers when there could well have been bonuses' in Gordie's contract if he reached certain plateaus' and or if not, become problematical when it came to re-negotiate the next one?.
Howe was subject to the NHL reserve clause, which was part of the standard player contract back in the day. It said that players had 2 options upon the conclusion of their contract, they could negotiate a new deal or request a trade/sit out. It essentially gave all of the negotiating power to the GM; therefore, Howe's numbers gave him very little leverage when it came to contracts.

TasteofFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 05:19 PM
  #43
Tavaresmagicalplay*
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,306
vCash: 500
This kind of happens even today. I remember Ovechkin put a shot on net and a defender tried to clear the puck and put it on another capitals stick and they scored and Ov got the assist.

Tavaresmagicalplay* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2011, 03:55 PM
  #44
Scott1980
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 371
vCash: 500
I know of numerous incidents of where the player didn't even shoot the puck on goal and got credit for a goal!

Billy Smith: November 28, 1979 (Was 200 feet away from net!)
Damien Rhodes: January 2, 1999 (" " " " " ")
Martin Brodeur: February 15, 2000 (" " " " ")
Mika Norenen: February 14, 2004 (" " " " ")
Chris Mason: April 15, 2006 (" " " " ")

But the ultimate one was by Perry Berezan, who scored the series winning goal against Edmonton, April 30, 1986, while he was on the bench!

Scott1980 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2011, 04:29 PM
  #45
MadLuke
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,389
vCash: 500
At some point the French was treated not so bad because of the fear that the quebec province joint the USA that was rebelling to the British.

They give them freedom of Catholic religion and given in exchange to the clergy the mission of convincing Quebecois to not joint the new american nation.

MadLuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2011, 07:36 PM
  #46
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteofFlames View Post
Howe's numbers gave him very little leverage when it came to contracts.
Yes, Im aware of the Reserve Clause and the options; Self Destruction or Assimilation TOF, however, even at the most rudimentary level if you've got the stats to back it circa 1952, 4 or 7 your looking at some Crimson n' Clover come Contract time. How on Earth would Adams ever explain that one away?. ... Ultimately as we know through the rear view mirror Jolly Jack was a Master Manipulator but still.... to this day, personally, the bile rises to my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
They give them freedom of Catholic religion and given in exchange to the clergy the mission of convincing Quebecois to not joint the new american nation.
Giving rise to yet another Conspiracy Theory that the Catholic Church was in fact manipulated by a powerful, English Speaking group of foresters, brewers, distillers & distributors, bankers & politicians in the upper echelons of industry & commerce in the province of Quebec from the late 16th to early 21st century. A sort of "Illuminati" that kept the french in perpetual subjugation generationally. I actually believe this to be true, but it has little to do with hf or the hoh threads. Indeed, its a powderkeg, and you wanna light the match Luke?. Think twice before striking that Eddy Waterproof Match my friend.


Last edited by Killion: 09-22-2011 at 07:42 PM.
Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-26-2011, 04:33 PM
  #47
yourbestpal
Registered User
 
yourbestpal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 20
vCash: 500
A player I don't like got phantom assists awarded to him all the time. My favourite player is much better.

yourbestpal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2011, 10:36 PM
  #48
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
Yeah, but the establishment, in so much as these things can be proved, "wanted" Dionne to win. The league had already changed the rules so that Gretzky would not win the Calder.

But this was not an anti-Gretzky thing. More of an anti-WHA thing. That motive was certainly there. But for Gretzky? Why?
This is very true. The NHL had a pretty strong anti-WHA bias. This was most evidenced in the 72 Summit Series, when at the last minute the NHL threatened to not let any of their players go if the WHA players were participating. Since the NHL made up most the team, the WHA players weren't allowed to go.

I think things had gotten a little better by 79-80, but there was a lot of talk and speculation at the start of Gretzky's career about how he wasn't big enough, strong enough, or tough enough, to make it in the NHL, and about how he'd only done so well his rookie year in the WHA because it was an inferior league.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2011, 12:01 AM
  #49
JordanStaal#1Fan
Registered User
 
JordanStaal#1Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Asbestos, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,129
vCash: 1012
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I am talking about realities here, the Quebec Act and the Constitutional Act were extremely generous to the French in Canada and about as fair a settlement as the French colonists could have expected from the foe who had defeated them.

The British in Canada acted with the kind of respect and pragmatism towards the French which the French themselves often lacked both towards ethnic minorities in France itself and the peoples they dealt with in their numerous wars of conquest around the globe.


It just boggles the mind that somehow some interested parties created a narrative in which the French are somehow transformed into the Jews of the North American continent.

Sorry about that, it has little to do with Maurice Richard but I will answer when called out.
They weren't "generous", they didn't have a choice. If they angered the French, they would have risked them joining the American Revolution and losing all of their NA possession. They treated the French "fairly" to avoid losing everything, hardly a token of good will if you ask me...

JordanStaal#1Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:59 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.