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Avery an embarrassment to the team

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Old
09-28-2011, 06:13 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessarmy View Post
Explain why when Clarkson tries to fight him, he turtles time after time? That's cowardly.
Because he's trying to goad Clarkson into taking a penalty?

Cowardly implies that he's afraid. You really think he's afraid? He's fought guys tougher than Clarkson. Don't confuse gamesmanship with cowardice.

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09-28-2011, 06:15 PM
  #302
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some stuff about Avery i love...some stuff i cant stand....i cant stand the diving...i HATE it...theres nothing in sports i hate more...but i do like his tenacity and his constant yapping.

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09-28-2011, 06:20 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by chessarmy View Post
Explain why when Clarkson tries to fight him, he turtles time after time? That's cowardly.

And I'd like to preface this by saying I like a lot of players on this team. I'm a big fan of Richards, Gaborik, Callahan, Dubinsky, Lundqvist is easily one of the best goaltenders in the world, Staal is a great D-man, and I think this team could possibly finish top 4 in the East. But the way Avery conducts himself on and off the ice is not something I would be proud of.
Ever heard the phrase "discretion is the better part of valor"? It isn't just an excuse for those who don't want to fight. It's about knowing when the right time to fight is. Avery uses his brain before he drops the gloves, which he still does on a regular basis. The problem is that Avery gets into those situations more than almost anyone else in the league and these situations are usually more intense with him than with others, so it seems like he "turtles" a lot when someone wants to fight him, even though it happens less than people realize. And he doesn't fight Clarkson because he knows Clarkson will do exactly what Avery wants him to do: take a penalty. Some players are predictable when it comes to Sean Avery. Clarkson is one of them. We will see if Simmonds is yet another.

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09-28-2011, 06:30 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by chessarmy View Post
Explain why when Clarkson tries to fight him, he turtles time after time? That's cowardly.



He doesn't turtle EVERY time...

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09-28-2011, 06:39 PM
  #305
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If Avery plays for the Rangers this year with the tenacity he has shown during the preseason, he will be anything but an embarrassment.

Put the Avery-Stepan-Fedotenko like back together.

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09-28-2011, 06:56 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
If Avery plays for the Rangers this year with the tenacity he has shown during the preseason, he will be anything but an embarrassment.

Put the Avery-Stepan-Fedotenko like back together.
I haven't been a strong advocate of it, but ****, if Avery plays like he has been, I'd even be down to try Avery with Gabby and Richards.

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09-28-2011, 06:57 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Because he's trying to goad Clarkson into taking a penalty?

Cowardly implies that he's afraid. You really think he's afraid? He's fought guys tougher than Clarkson. Don't confuse gamesmanship with cowardice.
The issue for me is that there's no sportsmanship in acting like you're going to drop the gloves, and then refusing to drop them, which he's done before on numerous occasions.... It's one thing if a player attacks him or comes at him without the two of them squaring up and acknowledging to fight, but I'll never find it acceptable when Avery shakes his gloves like he's ready to fight and then doesn't drop them and tries to draw a penalty...

I totally understand where Devil fans are coming from on this... If one of their players was doing the same thing on the ice, we would all be speaking out against it... I don't like any player doing that, regardless of what jersey they are wearing...

I support drawing penalties with integrity.... Through outworking your opponent, or playing hard and delivering hard, clean checks so that your opponent gets frustrated and takes a stupid penalty in retaliation.... I'll never support diving, players embellishing minor infractions (like Crosby did his rookie year), or players disrespecting the honor code in the game when it comes to challenging other players to fights... Never would you ever have seen a player like Orr or Boogaard act in that manner, because they had integrity, and class.... Something Avery obviously never cared about....


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09-28-2011, 06:58 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Avery fights more than enough times for me to be comfortable knowing that he turtles when it will benefit the Rangers.

I am absolutely 100% OK with that and I like the goons in the league.

I like fighting in Hockey. I also enjoy the pests that get guys off their games and Avery is one of the best at that today.
Yeah exactly. He's strategic in what he does. It's flabbergasting how many people just don't get it. I guess they either don't watch enough or they just want to perceive it however they like. When he goads someone, he's doing EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS. When he turtles, he's intentionally doing it to try and get his team a power play. People act like he turtles cause he's terrified of fighting guys. He's fought plenty of guys. If his goal was to fight someone he'd get try and get up and fight. We've seen that. When he executes his plan perfectly, he turtles and gets his team an advantage. People can call it cowardly all they want. I call it absolutely hilarious and question the intelligence of every player who falls for it and in the process hurts their team.

One thing that blows my mind is how many fans of opposing teams watch an incident like that and all they can talk about is what a gutless puke Avery is and what a disgrace to the league he is. If Avery ever plays for another team and comes back to play the Rangers, I would be FURIOUS with whatever player on my team fell for it. It's not like Sean Avery isn't a well know figure in the NHL. Every freakin player knows exactly who he is and what he does, and they STILL fall for it.


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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
When he's consistent I don't have any issues with how he plays the game (other than the frequent offsides), but I don't like seeing him provoking players to drop the gloves, and then refusing to fight.... If he wants to draw penalties because some opponent is so pissed off at him that they crosscheck him or elbow him or something along those lines, then fine, but don't act like you want to fight and then refuse to....
So it's a morality issue. With most who disagree, it usually seems to be.

It's a game guys. The objective is to win. If it really bothers you when Avery does that, it should bother you more that is opponents still are stupid enough to drop the gloves first. Why any player would drop their gloves before Avery is a clear indication of just how dumb they are.


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Originally Posted by chessarmy View Post
Explain why when Clarkson tries to fight him, he turtles time after time? That's cowardly.

And I'd like to preface this by saying I like a lot of players on this team. I'm a big fan of Richards, Gaborik, Callahan, Dubinsky, Lundqvist is easily one of the best goaltenders in the world, Staal is a great D-man, and I think this team could possibly finish top 4 in the East. But the way Avery conducts himself on and off the ice is not something I would be proud of.

What does that mean the way Avery conducts himself on an off the ice? And why do any of us care? Are you a baseball fan? A football fan? A fan of any other sport? You do understand the types of things that players...errr people rather....engage in on their own time right? Many of those things which might not coincide with your moral code.

What exactly has Avery done on or off the ice that we shouldn't be proud of? The guy has never been a player who attempts to injure. He's no Jarkko Rutuu or Matt Cooke, no Tom Sestito. Aside from an incident that was thrown out by LAPD has never been involved in anything off the ice that I'm aware of, so I'd be intrigued to hear just what exactly it is that I'm not supposed to be proud of.

And why do Devils fans like yourself, and your idiot homer announcer Chico Resch, think that Sean Avery has some obligation to fight David Clarkson every time they're on the ice together?

Just because Clarkson has some weird hard on for Avery and wants to fight him every second means that Avery should oblige all the time? You guys and Chico act like Avery has never fought Clarkson. Is that true? Can you tell me I'm wrong there?

How many times would Avery have to fight Clarkson for you to get over that?

He's fought the guy before. You think he's losing sleep over possibly fighting him again? Riiiiiiiiight. It's obvious Clarkson is a better fighter than Avery. Good for him. Wake me up when Clarkson has a 50+ point season.

The fact that Avery still goads Clarkson into taking penalties almost every time they meet is absolutely hilarious. And as a Devils fan I would be more irate with the player on my own team than I would be Sean Avery for pulling the same trick in the book for the 1 millionth time.

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09-28-2011, 07:01 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Me: I think Avery can be a third/fourth line player that scores 25 to 30 points.

You: Stupid comment.

Me: Avery got less ice time than any forward on the roster last year and still put up 24 points, basically on pace for his average and what you expect.

You: Stupid comment.

Me: If Avery got a regular shift, based on his numbers throughout his career and tenure here, and wasn't benched for long stretches just about every night, he would finish around the 10 goals and 30 points that we should expect him to put up.

You: Blah blah blah. Avery's not as good as you think. He's not good at all actually. You and others like him so much that you think he's a first line player.

Me: No, I think he's a 3rd/4th line tweener who can score around 10 goals and put up 30 points. It obviously bothers you that someone you hate who is a 3rd/4th line player has so many fans.

You: Stupid comment.

Me: With his forechecking ability, the way he can control the puck in the offensive zone, and other intangibles he brings to the team, it's difficult to make a case for him not deserving of being on this team.

You: Not only does he not belong on this team, he doesn't belong in the NHL.

Me: Based on what?

You: Stupid comment.



Am I missing anything here chosen? Fill me in, please. Now remember, if you're following the above conversation that's happened many times, this is where you respond with your typical one-two line stupid, witty comment that actually doesn't address anything.

Go for it though. It's obvious after all these years you've got nothing else.

But yes, the guy being a 30 point player, most of us expecting a 30 point player, means we're the ones ignoring results. I get it.

Keep making comments about how we're the ones out of touch with reality that ignore facts. It makes you look right to people who casually read threads, and plus you don't have to actually back it up with anything.

Okay...insert one-two line stupid, witty comment..........................now.
This is too good to be true. You are making my argument for me. I stated that his supporters point to ifs as proof that he has value. The you call me stupid by telling everyone that if this or that, Avery would show his true value.

But I'm stupid.

I try and refrain from personal attacks but when you call me stupid and then make my point, it is hard to believe that anyone could not discern who is being stupid in this discussion.

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Old
09-28-2011, 07:01 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessarmy View Post
Explain why when Clarkson tries to fight him, he turtles time after time? That's cowardly.

And I'd like to preface this by saying I like a lot of players on this team. I'm a big fan of Richards, Gaborik, Callahan, Dubinsky, Lundqvist is easily one of the best goaltenders in the world, Staal is a great D-man, and I think this team could possibly finish top 4 in the East. But the way Avery conducts himself on and off the ice is not something I would be proud of.
I kind of look at this way. Clarkson has an anger problem and Avery plays on it a lot. But for Clarkson to fight Avery he's stepping down a weight class and Avery's stepping up one. I don't have a problem with Sean toying with him and not fighting every time Clarkson loses it--which would be just about every game the two teams play. In other words fighting with Avery isn't going to get Clarkson any real respect among the other frequent fighters in the league because they know he has a size advantage. Clarkson gets respect when he fights guys his own size or bigger. In some respects it's a question of discipline and David hasn't figured it out yet and it looks like he's not going to for a while. So it's been advantage Rangers.

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09-28-2011, 07:03 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
The issue for me is that there's no sportsmanship in acting like you're going to drop the gloves, and then refusing to drop them, which he's done before on numerous occasions.... It's one thing if a player attacks him or comes at him without the two of them squaring up and acknowledging to fight, but I'll never find it acceptable when Avery shakes his gloves like he's ready to fight and then doesn't drop them and tries to draw a penalty...

I totally understand where Devil fans are coming from on this... If one of their players was doing the same thing on the ice, we would all be speaking out against it... I don't like any player doing that, regardless of what jersey they are wearing...

I support drawing penalties with integrity.... Through outworking your opponent, or playing hard and delivering hard, clean checks so that your opponent gets frustrated and takes a stupid penalty in retaliation.... I'll never support diving, players embellishing minor infractions (like Crosby did his rookie year), or players disrespecting the honor in the game when it comes to dropping the gloves...
Yeah, like Devils fans use to speak out about Claude doing the same ****. Or is our team for reasons obscure supposed to be better?

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09-28-2011, 07:03 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
The issue for me is that there's no sportsmanship in acting like you're going to drop the gloves, and then refusing to drop them, which he's done before on numerous occasions.... It's one thing if a player attacks him or comes at him without the two of them squaring up and acknowledging to fight, but I'll never find it acceptable when Avery shakes his gloves like he's ready to fight and then doesn't drop them and tries to draw a penalty...

I totally understand where Devil fans are coming from on this... If one of their players was doing the same thing on the ice, we would all be speaking out against it... I don't like any player doing that, regardless of what jersey they are wearing...

I support drawing penalties with integrity.... Through outworking your opponent, or playing hard and delivering hard, clean checks so that your opponent gets frustrated and takes a stupid penalty in retaliation.... I'll never support diving, players embellishing minor infractions (like Crosby did his rookie year), or players disrespecting the honor in the game when it comes to dropping the gloves...

See this is where you're completely wrong. If the roles were reversed I would have ZERO ISSUE with their playing doing that and would be absolutely FURIOUS with whatever player on our team was dumb enough to drop the gloves first. Especially if the player that goaded our player into that was one with a reputation that EVERYONE IN THE HOCKEY WORLD KNOWS ABOUT.

You're totally wrong. I would have ZERO issue with a Devils player doing this, and a total issue with whatever idiot on our team fell for it.

And give me a break with this sportsmanship nonsense. This is professional sports, not some Michelle Obama sponsored Little League program where everybody gets a trophy and ice cream after the game.

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09-28-2011, 07:07 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
See this is where you're completely wrong. If the roles were reversed I would have ZERO ISSUE with their playing doing that and would be absolutely FURIOUS with whatever player on our team was dumb enough to drop the gloves first. Especially if the player that goaded our player into that was one with a reputation that EVERYONE IN THE HOCKEY WORLD KNOWS ABOUT.

You're totally wrong. I would have ZERO issue with a Devils player doing this, and a total issue with whatever idiot on our team fell for it.

And give me a break with this sportsmanship nonsense. This is professional sports, not some Michelle Obama sponsored Little League program where everybody gets a trophy and ice cream after the game.
I'm totally wrong? It's my opinion on the matter, deal with it... Everyone knows your Avery's biggest supporter and have never said a single criticism of him in your life, so there's no sense in having this argument with you anyway....

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09-28-2011, 07:08 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
This is too good to be true. You are making my argument for me. I stated that his supporters point to ifs as proof that he has value. The you call me stupid by telling everyone that if this or that, Avery would show his true value.

But I'm stupid.

I try and refrain from personal attacks but when you call me stupid and then make my point, it is hard to believe that anyone could not discern who is being stupid in this discussion.
Could you kindly address for the audience where the if's are in my statements?

Me saying I "think" he can be a 10 goal 30 point player? That's not an if. That's a statement based on the facts that he has been five different times in the past.

Please point out exactly where my "if's" are and I will address them. Something you refuse to do anytime you chime in with your one liners every time there's an Avery discussion.

Calling your comments stupid and you stupid are two totally different things. I like a lot of your posts, but when it comes to Avery you're the most biased poster on this board, and you've never once in all this time ever backed it up with anything legitimate.

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09-28-2011, 07:09 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by chessarmy View Post
Umm, Avery was talking **** about Brodeur's wife/kids on the ice, would you shake someone's hand that did something like that?
all i have to say is that in 30 years, Brodeur is the only person I have ever seen insult the tradition of the handshake. Do you want to shake his hand vs do you shake his hand is very different.

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09-28-2011, 07:13 PM
  #316
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Yeah, like Devils fans use to speak out about Claude doing the same ****. Or is our team for reasons obscure supposed to be better?
Claude Lemieux who's last season with NJ was back in 1995? How were you gauging Devil fans opinions on the subject matter back in '95, basing it off of those you knew???

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade regardless of my allegiance to a particular team, and I'm glad some others on here aren't hesitant to do the same.... Avery pulls clownish antics on the ice that a lot of players don't respect or appreciate, and I'm not just talking about his opponents.... Anyone think Shanny would support his teammates goating other players into fights and then refusing to drop the gloves? Did Drury respect/support Avery trying to deliberately screen the goaltender with his stick? Some players have respect for the game and operate with integrity, others clearly don't....

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09-28-2011, 07:19 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I'm totally wrong? It's my opinion on the matter, deal with it... Everyone knows your Avery's biggest supporter and have never said a single criticism of him in your life, so there's no sense in having this argument with you anyway....
Yeah exactly. Your opinion. Thanks for a constructive response though.

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09-28-2011, 07:22 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
all i have to say is that in 30 years, Brodeur is the only person I have ever seen insult the tradition of the handshake. Do you want to shake his hand vs do you shake his hand is very different.
Would you have shook his hand? Can't say I blame him and I can't stand Brodeur....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Yeah exactly. Your opinion. Thanks for a constructive response though.
You obviously don't understand the semantics of the word 'opinion' though if you think you can tell people they're "totally wrong" when they share their 2 cents on this subject matter...

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09-28-2011, 07:22 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Claude Lemieux who's last season with NJ was back in 1995? How were you gauging Devil fans opinions on the subject matter back in '95, basing it off of those you knew???

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade regardless of my allegiance to a particular team, and I'm glad some others on here aren't hesitant to do the same.... Avery pulls clownish antics on the ice that a lot of players don't respect or appreciate, and I'm not just talking about his opponents.... Anyone think Shanny would support his teammates goating other players into fights and then refusing to drop the gloves? Did Drury respect/support Avery trying to deliberately screen the goaltender with his stick? Some players have respect for the game and operate with integrity, others clearly don't....
So you're making assumptions about the opinions of players in the game, whom you have no way of verifying are factual, and constructing them to coincide with your opinion, to prove your point?

As I recall, Shanny didn't seem to have any issue with Avery when he was here.

And your Drury comment about Avery screening Marty is a complete lie. Drury was asked out it after the game and CAME RIGHT OUT AND SAID that the only reason he went up to Sean was because the official was threatening to give him a penalty. Avery was trying to help the team. So was Drury. Seems to me those guys you use in your example might see more eye to eye than you think.

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09-28-2011, 07:25 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Claude Lemieux who's last season with NJ was back in 1995? How were you gauging Devil fans opinions on the subject matter back in '95, basing it off of those you knew???

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade regardless of my allegiance to a particular team, and I'm glad some others on here aren't hesitant to do the same.... Avery pulls clownish antics on the ice that a lot of players don't respect or appreciate, and I'm not just talking about his opponents.... Anyone think Shanny would support his teammates goating other players into fights and then refusing to drop the gloves? Did Drury respect/support Avery trying to deliberately screen the goaltender with his stick? Some players have respect for the game and operate with integrity, others clearly don't....
I don't want to get involved in this argument, but I just wanted to point out that Lemieux was on the Devils team in 2000 when they won the cup for a second time.

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09-28-2011, 07:32 PM
  #321
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I don't want to get involved in this argument, but I just wanted to point out that Lemieux was on the Devils team in 2000 when they won the cup for a second time.
lol. Or the fact that instead of actually responding to the obvious point eco was making, he's trying to shift it into a "how do you know, that was so long ago" argument.

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09-28-2011, 07:33 PM
  #322
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So you're making assumptions about the opinions of players in the game, whom you have no way of verifying are factual, and constructing them to coincide with your opinion, to prove your point?

As I recall, Shanny didn't seem to have any issue with Avery when he was here.
Pot meet kettle? So you have personal knowledge that Shanahan didn't object to anything Avery did on the ice (including the diving, the injury embellishments, and the turtling?) based on factual testimony from Shanny, right? Everything about Shanahan's actions and comments throughout his career would beg to differ, why do you think he was so anxious to take over for Colin Campell and work to clean the game up?...... I already said I wasn't having this argument with you since you're the biggest Avery fan in the world and yet you continue to quote my posts that aren't directed at you and engage in conversation with me.... Can you take a hint? Argue about it with someone who cares to argue about it with you... It's not my fault you can't engage in civil discussion on the internet and respectfully disagree with people without resorting to the inevitable personal attacks you always dole out.


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09-28-2011, 07:35 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I'm totally wrong? It's my opinion on the matter, deal with it... Everyone knows your Avery's biggest supporter and have never said a single criticism of him in your life, so there's no sense in having this argument with you anyway....
If it's your opinion that we'd all be speaking out against Avery's actions were a Devils player to do the same to us, well, you're just wrong. That's a part of the role of the pest, and I have no problem with it. And many share my perspective.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But what you see as unsportsmanlike or dishonorable, I see as gamesmanship.

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09-28-2011, 07:45 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
If it's your opinion that we'd all be speaking out against Avery's actions were a Devils player to do the same to us, well, you're just wrong. That's a part of the role of the pest, and I have no problem with it. And many share my perspective.
.
No, that's not what I implied at all.... I said if a player like Avery were on the Devils or Flyers and pulling Avery's antics (diviing, embellishing injuries, refusing to drop the gloves when squaring off) against our players, our entire fan base would be moaning and groaning about it and we all know that's true... No Ranger fan would be sitting here and saying it's perfectly acceptable because our player (Avery) does the same... Anyone who says that is wearing their Rangers' colored glasses for sure... Nobody would let Patrick Kaleta get a free pass acting like that, nobody would let Ruutu get a free pass either... It's no different than when Ryan Hollweg would repeatedly deliver dangerous boarding hits towards the end of his Rangers tenure... Very few Ranger fans speaking out against those hits, because it was our player delivering them... Had any of our Ranger players been on the receiving end of those hits, they'd be calling for the player's head and a 10 game suspension.... Maybe I'm a different breed but I like to do my best to view things objectively and not let bias creep into my opinions... It would feel pretty disingenuous to me to have a double standard for my own team's players and outwardly criticize opposing players for doing the same things, however my take is that a lot of fans don't see any issue with that....

wolfgaze is offline  
Old
09-28-2011, 07:52 PM
  #325
ruckus*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Pot meet kettle? So you have personal knowledge that Shanahan didn't object to anything Avery did on the ice (including the diving, the injury embellishments, and the turtling?) based on factual testimony from Shanny, right? Everything about Shanahan's actions and comments throughout his career would beg to differ, why do you think he was so anxious to take over for Colin Campell and work to clean the game up?...... I already said I wasn't having this argument with you since you're the biggest Avery fan in the world and yet you continue to quote my posts that aren't directed at you and engage in conversation with me.... Can you take a hint? Argue about it with someone who cares to argue about it with you... It's not my fault you can't engage in civil discussion on the internet and respectfully disagree with people without resorting to the inevitable personal attacks you always dole out.
Could you please quote my personal attacks? Show me exactly where Brendan Shannahan has spoken out against Sean Avery? I know for a fact that Chris Drury claimed that his problem with Avery doing that to Brodeur was based solely on the fact that he was worried Sean was going to take a penalty. I guess that's one up for me since you have nothing that supports your claims.

Shanahan was anxious to take over for Campbell because he wanted to clean up the game from guys like Avery? You're insane. Shanny wanted a job in hockey. And if you'd like to spend your time giving me a list of all the vile, suspendable, dangerous things that Avery has done on the ice that Shanny needs to clean up I'd love to sit here and listen.

Avery has never been a dirty player. There's zero for Shanny to clean up with him.

Why do you resort to far fetched nonsense to try and prove your point?

Why don't you and everyone else just come out and say you don't like the guy?

That's all you have to say. But instead time and time again you guys sit here and try and act like you like the guy and he just interferes with some sort of right and wrong that burns in your souls.

Just tells us all you don't like him and be done with it.

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