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Duncan Keith rejuvenated for this season.

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Old
09-19-2011, 04:32 PM
  #26
stingo
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I'm excited for the season to start. Keith is going to be in the running for the Norris.

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09-19-2011, 10:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Call me crazy but I thought Seabrook took a big step up with his offensive game and while he was inconsistent at times defensively, he was still one of the more reliable players coming back from the Cup hangover.
You're crazy.

All of his numbers were a product of getting PP1 time on a dominant PP and it's as simple as that. His ES point totals increase by (a modest) 4, while his PP points went up by a whopping 14. If you watched the PP unit he was BY FAR the least important cog in that unit, shooting poorly, failing miserably at keeping pucks in the zone, and not being a great puck cycler. Like any defenseman he made the occasional good pass, but he was definitely the weak link on the unit.

I predict at the end of the season that several ill-informed Hawk/hockey fans will mention Seabrook's drop in offensive production when Keith assumes his position back on the PP1. I bet his ES numberw will almost be identical to what they have been the last 2 years. The drop will be solely from a lack of PP1 time. It's also why Keith's numbers will skyrocket, likely approaching and surpassing (if our PP is as good as last year...I actually think it will be better) his career highs set in the Norris/Cup winning season.

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09-19-2011, 10:14 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by stingo View Post
I'm excited for the season to start. Keith is going to be in the running for the Norris.
I agree. If he plays with his head on straight and if Seabs doesn't play as poorly as he has (biggest question here IMO) he'll have all the stats (TOI, PP/PK time, great +-, and big point totals) to win the trophy.

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09-20-2011, 09:46 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zac View Post
You're crazy.

All of his numbers were a product of getting PP1 time on a dominant PP and it's as simple as that. His ES point totals increase by (a modest) 4, while his PP points went up by a whopping 14. If you watched the PP unit he was BY FAR the least important cog in that unit, shooting poorly, failing miserably at keeping pucks in the zone, and not being a great puck cycler. Like any defenseman he made the occasional good pass, but he was definitely the weak link on the unit.
First amongst Hawks D-men in goals. First amongst Hawks D-men in shooting percentage and significantly better than Keith. Keith was the one who couldn't put a quality shot on net to save his life until April. I agree completely with Q on this one. Seabrook was the better offensive player the first 80% or so of the season and should have been on the No. 1 unit.

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Originally Posted by zac View Post
I predict at the end of the season that several ill-informed Hawk/hockey fans will mention Seabrook's drop in offensive production when Keith assumes his position back on the PP1. I bet his ES numberw will almost be identical to what they have been the last 2 years. The drop will be solely from a lack of PP1 time. It's also why Keith's numbers will skyrocket, likely approaching and surpassing (if our PP is as good as last year...I actually think it will be better) his career highs set in the Norris/Cup winning season.
And if Seabrook matches his production from last year, then what? He sucked in 10-11 while falling ass backwards into goals but improved in 11-12?


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09-20-2011, 06:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Call me crazy but I thought Seabrook took a big step up with his offensive game and while he was inconsistent at times defensively, he was still one of the more reliable players coming back from the Cup hangover.
Completely agree. I still maintain that Seabrook was our best defenceman last year. He took a step back defensively, but showed he can put up some points on the PP. And as usual, he was by far and away our most physical defenceman.

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09-20-2011, 11:03 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
First amongst Hawks D-men in goals. First amongst Hawks D-men in shooting percentage and significantly better than Keith. Keith was the one who couldn't put a quality shot on net to save his life until April. I agree completely with Q on this one. Seabrook was the better offensive player the first 80% or so of the season and should have been on the No. 1 unit.



And if Seabrook matches his production from last year, then what? He sucked in 10-11 while falling ass backwards into goals but improved in 11-12?
LOL...he was first on the Hawks in ES goals by a whopping ONE (Keith and Campbell each had 3). Campbell had 21 ES points to Seabs' 26 despite playing in only 65 games. Fact is Brian Campbell was the Hawks best offensive defenseman last year, he just wasn't given any PP1 time because Q is stupid. He doesn't have the best shot, but he was EASILY the best puck cycler and was the best fit on the PP1 unit. But Seabs got the call and his numbers reflected the change.

Touting Seabs' dmen leading shooting percentage is like saying your an Einstein among retards. I don't know if there is a worst shooting group of defenseman out there than what he Hawks had, especially with Keith's struggles. I don't know what the hell happened to Keith last year, but he struggled with his shot until about the final week of the regular season when he began to show signs of coming around. In the Vancouver series Keith shot 14% with FOUR goals...he had 7 the entire regular season. If Keith plays anywhere near like he did at the end of the season, he will be on the number one PP unit. He has a much better combination of shot speed AND accuracy when on his game, provided he isn't blasting pucks into the shins of oncoming forwards/dmen.

I don't know why you keep wanting to compare Seabs to Keith last year as justification for him being on the number one unit. Everyone knows Keith was trash, and deserved to be removed from it. The problem was that Campbell, and possibly Leddy (I even think Hammer could have been better) were better options than Seabs on the PP. Given that everyone's shot sucks, I'd rather have guys adept at handling the puck, keeping pucks in the zone, and having the ability to cycle and pass than a player who's out there because he has the "best" shot of a crappy lot. That's the real argument. Not that Seabs should have been out there over Keith as he definitely should have been.

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09-20-2011, 11:08 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Completely agree. I still maintain that Seabrook was our best defenceman last year. He took a step back defensively, but showed he can put up some points on the PP. And as usual, he was by far and away our most physical defenceman.
If you REALLY think Seabs played better than Brian Campbell then you are off your rocker. He basically was consistenly bad to mediocre all season, while Keith had more ups and downs. Once Hammer got through his first quarter-third season's worth of futility he was ALSO better by a wide margin.

Campbell was easily the MVP of our defensemen last year. It's not even up for debate. It's amazing how blinded some are by a spike in offensive numbers, when virtually all of said numbers were a result of PP1 time increase. Seabs offensive numbers at ES were consistent with those he's posted over the last couple of years. This "offensive explosion" stuff going around is just a myth based solely off overall numbers.

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09-21-2011, 10:25 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by zac View Post
If you REALLY think Seabs played better than Brian Campbell then you are off your rocker. He basically was consistenly bad to mediocre all season, while Keith had more ups and downs. Once Hammer got through his first quarter-third season's worth of futility he was ALSO better by a wide margin.

Campbell was easily the MVP of our defensemen last year. It's not even up for debate. It's amazing how blinded some are by a spike in offensive numbers, when virtually all of said numbers were a result of PP1 time increase. Seabs offensive numbers at ES were consistent with those he's posted over the last couple of years. This "offensive explosion" stuff going around is just a myth based solely off overall numbers.
Defensively, yes, Campbell was best last year. Completely agree. Offensively, Seabrook blew everyone out of the water and I'm not even taking stats into consideration when I say that, just how they played and how they looked. The gap between Seabrook and Campbell offensively was pretty big and to say Campbell should have been on PP1 over him is crazy. Hammer on the PP over Seabs, I mean, even you know how that sounds. All the great things you want to say about Campbell defensively and his consistency all year should also be said, but IMO to an even greater degree, in regards to Seabrook's offensive play. Why you don't, I have no idea but I'm very confident Seabs will have another 45-50 point season and look just as good as last year if not better so maybe then we can all come together and appreciate it. If not, oh well, I don't care either way.

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09-21-2011, 11:50 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zac View Post
If you REALLY think Seabs played better than Brian Campbell then you are off your rocker. He basically was consistenly bad to mediocre all season, while Keith had more ups and downs. Once Hammer got through his first quarter-third season's worth of futility he was ALSO better by a wide margin.

Campbell was easily the MVP of our defensemen last year. It's not even up for debate. It's amazing how blinded some are by a spike in offensive numbers, when virtually all of said numbers were a result of PP1 time increase. Seabs offensive numbers at ES were consistent with those he's posted over the last couple of years. This "offensive explosion" stuff going around is just a myth based solely off overall numbers.
There is really no point arguing with you over this again. The fact that you can say with a straight face that Hammer should have been on the #1 PP over Seabrook pretty much sums up your credibility on the subject.

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09-21-2011, 09:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
There is really no point arguing with you over this again. The fact that you can say with a straight face that Hammer should have been on the #1 PP over Seabrook pretty much sums up your credibility on the subject.
I think Hammer has the talent to develop some offensive skills. The point was with Seabs' shot being woeful, as was everyone else's on the team, i'd rather see players who can skate, move the puck, and keep pucks in the zone in order to facilitate getting the puck to those that can. I think (notice I didn't say definitively) Hammer could have been better than Seabs.

It's really hard to say as he's so damn apprehensive with his offensive game. Maybe with Campbell gone that will change this year.

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09-22-2011, 01:38 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
There is really no point arguing with you over this again. The fact that you can say with a straight face that Hammer should have been on the #1 PP over Seabrook pretty much sums up your credibility on the subject.
Slam Dunk, with a possible foul on the play.

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I think Hammer has the talent to develop some offensive skills. The point was with Seabs' shot being woeful, as was everyone else's on the team, i'd rather see players who can skate, move the puck, and keep pucks in the zone in order to facilitate getting the puck to those that can. I think (notice I didn't say definitively) Hammer could have been better than Seabs.

It's really hard to say as he's so damn apprehensive with his offensive game. Maybe with Campbell gone that will change this year.
I've gotta say your references to our players are quite... blunt. Especially calling Q stupid, although he was a bit crazy last season. Nevertheless I have to agree. Hammer on the point, on PP1 is crazy and absolutely far-fetched. Save those ideas for NHL12. I expect Montador to pull a Gonchar at times; when the Pens were going to be eliminated by Montreal he just let them pass him by on the boards... i have a feeling we'll be seeing that a lot from him, getting beaten on the rush...

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09-22-2011, 07:32 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by zac View Post
I think Hammer has the talent to develop some offensive skills. The point was with Seabs' shot being woeful, as was everyone else's on the team, i'd rather see players who can skate, move the puck, and keep pucks in the zone in order to facilitate getting the puck to those that can. I think (notice I didn't say definitively) Hammer could have been better than Seabs.

It's really hard to say as he's so damn apprehensive with his offensive game. Maybe with Campbell gone that will change this year.
Hammer is 3rd on my list for PP1, as he is always too scared to pull the trigger on a point shot. I'd rather take my chance with Seabs and/or Keith at least firing shots off, even if they're 3 feet wide of the goal. It's a lot easier to correct the accuracey of a shot, than it is to try and get a guy who is too scared to even take the shot.

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09-29-2011, 11:07 AM
  #38
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Hockey Propectus projects Keith having the third best season by a Dman in '12. Key word being "projects".

3. Duncan Keith, Blackhawks: 12.0 GVT

The former Norris winner had a bit of a "down" season by his standards, scoring 45 points with a mediocre minus-1 rating. Keith nevertheless led the entire NHL in ice-time last season, averaging almost 27 minutes per game and remains the number one defender for the Hawks.

Part of his downturn was low on-ice save and shooting percentages at even strength last year. If those regress to the mean, his plus-minus and output should bounce back up.

#1? Dustin Byfuglien, Winnipeg Jets: 15.5 GVT
When the Atlanta Thrashers converted Byfuglien back to defense after he spent several seasons as a forward for the Chicago Blackhawks, it seemed like an odd choice. Byfuglien justified that decision, however, by becoming one of the highest scoring rearguards in the league. His 20 goals and 347 shots on goal were both league highs among defensemen and his 53 points was the most he's managed in the NHL.

Byfuglien and partner Tobias Enstrom are the club's first choice to play on the man advantage and they aren't burdened with shutdown duties. This is why VUKOTA projects Byfuglien to have the highest expected offensive GVT (11.1) of any defender this coming season.

The rest:

2. Shea Weber, Nashville Predators: 12.3 GVT
4. Drew Doughty, Los Angeles Kings (RFA): 12.0 GVT
5. Kris Letang, Pittsburgh Penguins: 11.6 GVT
6. Lubomir Visnovsky, Anaheim Ducks: 11.5 GVT
7. Alex Pietrangelo, St. Louis Blues: 11.5 GVT
8. Dan Boyle, San Jose Sharks: 10.8 GVT
9. Mike Green, Washington Capitals: 10.8 GVT
10. Christian Ehrhoff, Buffalo Sabres: 10.6 GVT

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09-30-2011, 04:26 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sedag View Post
Hockey Propectus projects Keith having the third best season by a Dman in '12. Key word being "projects".

3. Duncan Keith, Blackhawks: 12.0 GVT

The former Norris winner had a bit of a "down" season by his standards, scoring 45 points with a mediocre minus-1 rating. Keith nevertheless led the entire NHL in ice-time last season, averaging almost 27 minutes per game and remains the number one defender for the Hawks.

Part of his downturn was low on-ice save and shooting percentages at even strength last year. If those regress to the mean, his plus-minus and output should bounce back up.

#1? Dustin Byfuglien, Winnipeg Jets: 15.5 GVT
When the Atlanta Thrashers converted Byfuglien back to defense after he spent several seasons as a forward for the Chicago Blackhawks, it seemed like an odd choice. Byfuglien justified that decision, however, by becoming one of the highest scoring rearguards in the league. His 20 goals and 347 shots on goal were both league highs among defensemen and his 53 points was the most he's managed in the NHL.

Byfuglien and partner Tobias Enstrom are the club's first choice to play on the man advantage and they aren't burdened with shutdown duties. This is why VUKOTA projects Byfuglien to have the highest expected offensive GVT (11.1) of any defender this coming season.

The rest:

2. Shea Weber, Nashville Predators: 12.3 GVT
4. Drew Doughty, Los Angeles Kings (RFA): 12.0 GVT
5. Kris Letang, Pittsburgh Penguins: 11.6 GVT
6. Lubomir Visnovsky, Anaheim Ducks: 11.5 GVT
7. Alex Pietrangelo, St. Louis Blues: 11.5 GVT
8. Dan Boyle, San Jose Sharks: 10.8 GVT
9. Mike Green, Washington Capitals: 10.8 GVT
10. Christian Ehrhoff, Buffalo Sabres: 10.6 GVT
If they'll let him into the country...

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