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Ducks 2011-12 Training Camp Discussion (Maroon assigned Syracuse, Smaby on IR)

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Old
09-29-2011, 12:26 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
I'd put RPG as the 2nd best line since the lockout behind only Heatley - Spezza - Alfreddson.

You could make an argument for a few more at #2 but I'm going to homer, and I don't think #1 is debatable.
Nor I. The Alfie line has definitely been the best. After that I think there are a few lines you could make an argument for, including the RPG line.

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09-29-2011, 01:11 PM
  #402
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I don't know why I'm not seeing what some are with DSP. To me he seems slow, both his feet and his brain. He's pretty rarely effective. He hasn't shown much physicality, nor willingness to clear a crease. Basically he isn't anything he was advertised as.

Holland was a hell of a lot more impressive IMO, and Holland was properly sent down for more seasoning.

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09-29-2011, 01:12 PM
  #403
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I disagree completely. The way to convince pests/goons/enforcers to leave your skill players alone is not to beat the crap out of the pest/goon/enforcer. It's to take runs at his skilled teammates and inform them whose fault it is they are getting beaten on until THEY tell the pest to cool it. Duco's targets have been players like Hall and Visnovsky. The Sedins won't make it through the season if he continues his antics.
My problem with Parros is he wont do what you said needs to get done. Im glad JFJ took some action, but I would have preferred a big hit on on of the Sedins or Kesler, that would send more of a message IMO than taking out Duco.

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09-29-2011, 01:23 PM
  #404
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Heatley - Spezza - Alfredsson was the best in terms of output, no doubt, since the lockout. I do, however, think that line benefited from the high-scoring years post-lockout, though. Imo, our first line is more exciting to watch, though. Ottawa's line was very bland, they didn't play physically and had trouble against tight-checking teams. It was Alfredsson as the forechecker and defensive presence, Spezza was the setup man, and Heatley was the guy waiting Spezza's pass for the one timer. RPG can give you more looks and is much better at the grinding and cycling when they have to. Not to mention, all 3 are great playmakers and shooters.

Again, I don't disagree that the Pizza line was the best post-lockout.

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09-29-2011, 01:24 PM
  #405
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I don't know why I'm not seeing what some are with DSP. To me he seems slow, both his feet and his brain. He's pretty rarely effective. He hasn't shown much physicality, nor willingness to clear a crease. Basically he isn't anything he was advertised as.

Holland was a hell of a lot more impressive IMO, and Holland was properly sent down for more seasoning.
Different expectations.

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09-29-2011, 01:31 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Hazy View Post
Heatley - Spezza - Alfredsson was the best in terms of output, no doubt, since the lockout. I do, however, think that line benefited from the high-scoring years post-lockout, though. Imo, our first line is more exciting to watch, though. Ottawa's line was very bland, they didn't play physically and had trouble against tight-checking teams. It was Alfredsson as the forechecker and defensive presence, Spezza was the setup man, and Heatley was the guy waiting Spezza's pass for the one timer. RPG can give you more looks and is much better at the grinding and cycling when they have to. Not to mention, all 3 are great playmakers and shooters.

Again, I don't disagree that the Pizza line was the best post-lockout.
I also think the RPG line is less consistent. We've seen them dominate games, but sometimes you just get the impression they dominate when they -want- to, and there are definitely games they seem to cruise through at times. It's just the line has such talent that they can still out up points in games like that.

It's also easy to look at the Pizza line and remember how the Pahlsson line made them their *****, but forget that it was the best offensive line in those playoffs by a fair margin. They were dominating teams in the playoffs, though I agree, it was more hum-drum than the RPG line. That line always struck me as more methodical. Like a German luxury car vs the RPG line's American(North American) muscle.

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09-29-2011, 01:42 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Different expectations.
I expect players to be effective at what they're purportedly good at. That what they're good at may be different doesn't matter.

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09-29-2011, 01:57 PM
  #408
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I expect players to be effective at what they're purportedly good at. That what they're good at may be different doesn't matter.
But it does.

The role matters.

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09-29-2011, 02:02 PM
  #409
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...
Right, I said that. So did you. Holland was better at what he does than DSP is at what he does. Let me put it another way:

What in DSP's play suggests to you that he's actually good at his role right now? Because unless you're suggesting that it's okay for bottom 6ers to be mediocre to bad at what they do, we disagree.

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09-29-2011, 02:17 PM
  #410
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...
Right, I said that. So did you. Holland was better at what he does than DSP is at what he does. Let me put it another way:

What in DSP's play suggests to you that he's actually good at his role right now? Because unless you're suggesting that it's okay for bottom 6ers to be mediocre to bad at what they do, we disagree.
No, you said what they're good at doesn't matter. It absolutely does.

I'm a proponent of sending DSP down, so that question doesn't really apply to me. But from Anaheim's perspective? It's a lot easier for them to pencil in DSP on this roster than it is Holland. This is a huge oversimplification, but it comes down to this: Top six forwards score, and bottom six forwards grind. Anaheim sees more of the former in Holland, whereas this roster needs more of the latter.

On top of that, Anaheim also wants to be sure both players get the development they need. In DSP's case, with his toolset, that can happen on the 3rd line in the NHL just as easily as it could in the Major Juniors. The same can not be said of Holland. Being a #1 center in the AHL is probably better for Holland than being a #3 center in the NHL, at least until Anaheim feels like he has learned what he can in the AHL.


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Old
09-29-2011, 02:22 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by My Cat View Post
I expect players to be effective at what they're purportedly good at. That what they're good at may be different doesn't matter.
Holland is expected to be the 2nd line center. His skills will best be improved playing big 1st line minutes in the AHL, not playing 10 minutes a night being told to be a checker on the Ducks 3rd line. So he was sent down.

DSP is expected to be a checker on the 3rd line, with possibly 2nd line upside. He is getting an extended look to see if he can be an effective checker on the 3rd line now. He has a minimal chance because he's one of the few players we have who will provide some large bodied hitting. Personally I feel he's behind McMillan, Gordon, Cogliano, and Beleskey, and I think it would be a waste to put him on the 4th line, but Beleskey's injury gives him a spot in the press box. The thing that bothers me most about him is he seems slower at the end of games. I haven't decided if that's just because I don't notice him much before then or if he's out of shape.

On an unrelated note we now have 4(!) centers who can play the PK (Koivu, Cogliano, Macenauer, McMillan). 2 of them can even win faceoffs.......

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09-29-2011, 02:23 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
No, you said what they're good at doesn't matter. It absolutely does.

I'm a proponent of sending DSP down, so that question doesn't really apply to me. But from Anaheim's perspective? It's a lot easier for them to pencil in DSP on this roster than it is Holland. This is a huge oversimplification, but it comes down to this: Top six forwards score, and bottom six forwards grind. Anaheim sees more of the latter in Holland, whereas this roster needs more of the former.

On top of that, Anaheim also wants to be sure both players get the development they need. In DSP's case, with his toolset, that can happen on the 3rd line in the NHL just as easily as it could in the Major Juniors. The same can not be said of Holland. Being a #1 center in the AHL is probably better for Holland than being a #3 center in the NHL, at least until Anaheim feels like he has learned what he can in the AHL.
It appears I should not have stopped to eat that piece of pizza midway through the post......well said sir.

I need to sticky the one post I actually ever beat you

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Old
09-29-2011, 02:26 PM
  #413
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Aww man. You responded before I edited.

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Old
09-29-2011, 02:28 PM
  #414
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It appears I should not have stopped to eat that piece of pizza midway through the post......well said sir.

I need to sticky the one post I actually ever beat you
I was about to hop in the shower, but decided to respond first. Funny how that works sometimes. Two little decisions.

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Old
09-29-2011, 02:53 PM
  #415
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TSNBobMcKenzie
I don't agree with this at all. I'm ok with this is Belesekey won't be ready but otherwise it's a mistake IMO. In the two games I saw he was clearly outplayed by Gordon. Oh well it's fine as long as they don't keep him up for more then 9 games.

Imo Should be:

RPG
Blake-Koivu-Selanne
McMillan-Cogs-Gordon
Belesekey-Mac-Parros

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Old
09-29-2011, 03:05 PM
  #416
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I don't agree with this at all. I'm ok with this is Belesekey won't be ready but otherwise it's a mistake IMO. In the two games I saw he was clearly outplayed by Gordon. Oh well it's fine as long as they don't keep him up for more then 9 games.

Imo Should be:

RPG
Blake-Koivu-Selanne
McMillan-Cogs-Gordon
Belesekey-Mac-Parros
Traveling to Europe does not mean PLAYING in Europe. They're taking 21 skaters and 3 goalies. 3 skaters in the pressbox, DSP will likely be one of them. Unless they suspect the Buffalo game will be as rough as usual, in which case maybe ice him for that one.

I agree with your roster, BTW.

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09-29-2011, 03:08 PM
  #417
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I don't know why I'm not seeing what some are with DSP. To me he seems slow, both his feet and his brain. He's pretty rarely effective. He hasn't shown much physicality, nor willingness to clear a crease. Basically he isn't anything he was advertised as.

Holland was a hell of a lot more impressive IMO, and Holland was properly sent down for more seasoning.
I also haven't been that impressed with DSP. Well impressed with his potential, he looks good in terms of I think he's got some good skills that could be put to use. And impressed with how he looks very close at 19. He might be able to PK this year. But not that impressed with his actual polish compared to the other options.

I disagree that he looks slow on feet. I think it's mostly he's still slow in terms of thinking the game. And I think he has shown pretty good hitting.

But in the end I think that the other borderline guys are as good or better than he is. Certainly not to the point where they should burn a contract year and risk stalling possible offensive development.

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09-29-2011, 03:37 PM
  #418
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I disagree that he looks slow on feet. I think it's mostly he's still slow in terms of thinking the game. And I think he has shown pretty good hitting.
He may not be slow as far as straight line speed goes but man is he uncoordinated when trying to turn swiftly and his conditioning doesn't look like it's anywhere near NHL level either. He needs to work on losing a couple of pounds of fat and getting more agile.

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09-29-2011, 03:38 PM
  #419
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He doesn't have the puck skills to stay up at this point, and he doesn't quite know where to be because of the faster pace.

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09-29-2011, 05:07 PM
  #420
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The roster is getting really close to being set...

If Lydman and Foster start on IR then Guenin and Smaby have made the team for now.

Beleskey is expected to come off IR which means 1 forward must be cut.

If DSP goes to Europe, then its down to Maroon or McGrattan going to Syracuse. I say keep McGrattan around.

Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry
Blake-Koivu-Selanne
McMillan-Cogliano-Gordon
Beleskey-Macenauer-Parros

McGrattan, DSP

Visnovsky-Sbisa
Fowler-Beauchemin
Brookbank-Guenin
Smaby

IR - Lydman, Foster

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Old
09-29-2011, 05:35 PM
  #421
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Grtz on network NOW http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...=616&id=124769

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Old
09-29-2011, 06:09 PM
  #422
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The roster is getting really close to being set...

If Lydman and Foster start on IR then Guenin and Smaby have made the team for now.

Beleskey is expected to come off IR which means 1 forward must be cut.

If DSP goes to Europe, then its down to Maroon or McGrattan going to Syracuse. I say keep McGrattan around.

Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry
Blake-Koivu-Selanne
McMillan-Cogliano-Gordon
Beleskey-Macenauer-Parros

McGrattan, DSP

Visnovsky-Sbisa
Fowler-Beauchemin
Brookbank-Guenin
Smaby

IR - Lydman, Foster
I'm pretty happy with that roster, especially when Lydman returns.

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Old
09-30-2011, 12:11 PM
  #423
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Maroon on waivers. Hopefully he gets a call up later in the year.

http://twitter.com/#!/renhockey/stat...13930838278144

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Waivers: Daugavins, Kaspars (OTT) Campbell, Andrew (L.A) Desbiens, Guillaume (CGY) Kennedy, Tim (FLA) Maroon, Patrick (ANA)

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Old
09-30-2011, 12:21 PM
  #424
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Interesting, think he's the most at risk of getting claimed as a 'project', though I think he's at best going to be a third line forward now, more likely to be a 4th line grinder with some offensive skill.

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09-30-2011, 12:59 PM
  #425
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May be a dumb question, but where does Mathieu Carle fit into the puzzle of the Ducks roster?

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