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the star - slams Kessel for lackluster effort

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Old
09-28-2011, 06:15 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Not sure those are labels per say, are they not observations of the obvious?
Of course it's a label. There is no black or white rule for laziness.

At best you can say "appears lazy".

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09-28-2011, 06:45 PM
  #127
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LOL so many people ragging on Kessel. The guy played a great game yesterday.

He is what he is, a sniper. That's what he does and that's what he's paid to do. He isn't a two-way player and never has been. Not everyone is a Jonathan Toews or Pavel Datsyuk. He plays an efficient style that allows him to score goals and be an offensive player.

Why does everyone want a two-way player out of every single forward? It's just not going to happen. First we want someone who can score goals, so we finally get him and now people want him to be a two-way player AND keep up his offense? It's not going to happen and shouldn't be expected.

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09-28-2011, 07:46 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
He is what he is, a sniper.
Here I go against the grain again, but Kessel is not a sniper. A sniper is a guy who needs very few chances to put the puck in the net - and that's definately not Kessel.

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09-28-2011, 07:59 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Here I go against the grain again, but Kessel is not a sniper. A sniper is a guy who needs very few chances to put the puck in the net - and that's definately not Kessel.
I always understood "sniper" as a player that can score but one that does not go into the dirty areas to do it.

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09-28-2011, 08:42 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
For some reason even though Kessel skates hard in games he is constantly being criticized for his work ethic and dedication to fitness off of it. "His face is fat!"
People need to be satisfied w/ the player he is. Lots of skill, great athlete, but there will always be certain parts of his game people won't like. Yet, he will likely continue to put up 30 plus goals a season for the Leafs for a long time. So the *****ing can really only go so far.

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09-28-2011, 08:47 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
LOL so many people ragging on Kessel. The guy played a great game yesterday.

He is what he is, a sniper. That's what he does and that's what he's paid to do. He isn't a two-way player and never has been. Not everyone is a Jonathan Toews or Pavel Datsyuk. He plays an efficient style that allows him to score goals and be an offensive player.

Why does everyone want a two-way player out of every single forward? It's just not going to happen. First we want someone who can score goals, so we finally get him and now people want him to be a two-way player AND keep up his offense? It's not going to happen and shouldn't be expected.
Exactly. Most good forwards are bad defensively...

Thomas Vanek is terrible in the D zone, Patrick Kane probably has about the same hits as Kessel. What's the difference? They play on teams with a better offense, defense and have a good goalie so no one cares how bad they suck defensively because their mistakes are taken care of by players like Toews, Miller etc.

Kessel on the other hand is on the Leafs where everything is already magnified 10x so of course everyone around the league calls him a one way player but he certainly isn't the only one out there.

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Old
09-28-2011, 09:00 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
I always understood "sniper" as a player that can score but one that does not go into the dirty areas to do it.
That's not what it means where I'm from. A sniper is a player who can score with few chances. Kessel scores due to a bulk of chances.

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09-28-2011, 09:35 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's not what it means where I'm from. A sniper is a player who can score with few chances. Kessel scores due to a bulk of chances.
The fact that he gets the puck so often in scoring chances is a sign he might be a sniper. Ever watch Ovie? He doesn't score on every shot.

Hell, Kessel's career shooting percentage is better than Ovies. I guess he's not a sniper either?

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Old
09-28-2011, 09:59 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by NaiveLeafsFan View Post
The fact that he gets the puck so often in scoring chances is a sign he might be a sniper. Ever watch Ovie? He doesn't score on every shot.
The fact that he gets a lot of scoring chances has no bearing on whether he is a sniper or not. Snipers score on a high perentage of their quality chances.

Kessel misses almost all of his quality chances, but then he scores on non-quality chances by surprising goalies with his release.

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09-28-2011, 10:02 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's not what it means where I'm from. A sniper is a player who can score with few chances. Kessel scores due to a bulk of chances.
That's not even remotely true. Snipers generally lead the league in shots.

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09-29-2011, 01:19 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's not what it means where I'm from. A sniper is a player who can score with few chances. Kessel scores due to a bulk of chances.
Lolwat.

Any good "sniper" shoots the puck a lot.

Anyways, if you ever watch guys like Perry, Ovi, D.Sedin when they're on top of there O game they are always floating and just waiting for the right moment. Best in the league for that is Danny Breire.

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09-29-2011, 02:25 AM
  #137
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That's not even remotely true. Snipers generally lead the league in shots.
The leading goalscorers generally lead the league in shots, or at least they are among leaders. There's a difference between a guy who scores a lot of goals and a sniper. Sometimes they are the same, but not always.

Once again, a sniper is a guy who scores on a very high percentage of his scoring chances. They have golden hands around the net. They just have a natural sense of how to put the puck in the net. They may not get a lot of chances to score, so they may not end up with a lot of goals, but they capitalize much moe often than most.

As an example, Tyler Bozak is a better sniper than Phil Kessel. Kessel will always score more because he is much better at creating chances. If, however, you gave both players the same number of equally good scoring chances, Bozak would put more in the net.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodybr3ak View Post
Lolwat.

Any good "sniper" shoots the puck a lot.
Anybody who scores a lot shoots the puck a lot. Don't confuse scoring a lot of goals ab being a sniper.

Quote:
Best in the league for that is Danny Breire.
I would agree that Briere is one of the better snipers around.

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Old
09-29-2011, 03:14 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The fact that he gets a lot of scoring chances has no bearing on whether he is a sniper or not. Snipers score on a high perentage of their quality chances.

Kessel misses almost all of his quality chances, but then he scores on non-quality chances by surprising goalies with his release.
Please, all the "snipers" in the NHL get loads of chances and even more shots. There's a reason for that, they are the best shooters on their clubs. Guys like OV and Stamkos miss too but they're also taking the bulk of their teams shots. Thats the way it is. They're shooters, not guys who are taking few shots looking for garbage which results in a high percentage of chances scored on.

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Old
09-29-2011, 03:34 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Please, all the "snipers" in the NHL get loads of chances and even more shots. There's a reason for that, they are the best shooters on their clubs. Guys like OV and Stamkos miss too but they're also taking the bulk of their teams shots. Thats the way it is. They're shooters, not guys who are taking few shots looking for garbage which results in a high percentage of chances scored on.
Exactly right.

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Old
09-29-2011, 04:12 AM
  #140
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Exactly. Most good forwards are bad defensively...

Thomas Vanek is terrible in the D zone, Patrick Kane probably has about the same hits as Kessel. What's the difference? They play on teams with a better offense, defense and have a good goalie so no one cares how bad they suck defensively because their mistakes are taken care of by players like Toews, Miller etc.

Kessel on the other hand is on the Leafs where everything is already magnified 10x so of course everyone around the league calls him a one way player but he certainly isn't the only one out there.
lol, where do you ppl come up with this ****.

Most good forwards are bad defensively? lol. Wow.

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Old
09-29-2011, 04:42 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Please, all the "snipers" in the NHL get loads of chances and even more shots. There's a reason for that, they are the best shooters on their clubs. Guys like OV and Stamkos miss too but they're also taking the bulk of their teams shots. Thats the way it is. They're shooters, not guys who are taking few shots looking for garbage which results in a high percentage of chances scored on.
Not all the snipers get loads of chances. The best offensive players get the most chances and shots. Some of them are snipers and some are not. Some snipers aren't good enough in other areas to get many quality chances.

Guys like Ovechkin and Stamkos are great in tight, but they also greatly inflate their shot totals and reduce their percentages by taking loads of shots from outside scoring areas.

Again, there is a difference between a "shooter" and a "sniper". Shooters have hard shots that are effective from the outside. Snipers have the instincts to know where to put the puck, the patience to wait for the opening, and the skill to excecute accuately.

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Old
09-29-2011, 05:02 AM
  #142
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Good article by cox, but u can bet it will be treated like "usual cox negativity" even though he praises 4 leafs players in the article while slamming one. Effort has always been questioned when it comes to Kessel since he was 18, and that is th question again. The kid is good enough to score 45. Will he be able to do that this year? I hope so, but i expect 35 because there are times when he is invisible out there.
Kessel playing a style more similar to Phaneuf...wtf?

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09-29-2011, 08:13 AM
  #143
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There's an aweful lot of backpedaling going on in order to classify OV and Stamkos as snipers, while managing to exclude Kessel. Inflated shots from low quality chances, lolz.

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09-29-2011, 11:35 AM
  #144
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Dreakmur... You have no idea what you're talking about... You can't simply base being a sniper off shooting percentages or however you're saying.

While the definition of sniper, playmaker, pwf, etc is subjective, for the most part, I'm gonna go ahead and stop you when you start claiming Tyler Bozak is a better sniper than Kessel.

Many things are needed to call someone a sniper. One of them is the velocity of the shot, and I don't think anyone can dispute Kessels wrister is ridiculously fast. Second, is accuracy... Can he pick off corners, one of the five general holes in a goalie (low blocker/glove, high right/left shoulder, and five hole). I think we can all agree that Kessel can pick off these spots with ease. Third, we look at release. Theres no question, Kessel has an elite release, easily one of the best in the league. I think another thing that most people will agree on, is the ability to get in open scoring areas. I'm not sure how great Kessel is at this, but I think his speed kinda makes up for it as he can beat defenders in and out of those spots, rather than park out somewhere like a Hull or Shanahan or someone not as quick as Kessel would do.

After that, things get a little blurry, and once again subjective, but that's how I see things at this point.

Mind you, Kessel has proven on plenty of ocassions, that he can more than just a sniper, I mean, he equaled his goals to assists this past season and showed his elite passing abilities so many times... So, maybe he can continue that role this season, and help out Lupuls goal production as well.

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09-29-2011, 11:59 AM
  #145
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Exactly at what shooting % do you turn yourself from a shooter into a sniper?

Also, on a bad year do you lose your title of sniper and become a shooter?
They should look into this so that they can correctly label players during game.
I don't want to hear Kessel and Sniper in the same sentence if he's shooting under 10% one year.

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Old
09-29-2011, 12:07 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Woll Smoth View Post
Exactly at what shooting % do you turn yourself from a shooter into a sniper?

Also, on a bad year do you lose your title of sniper and become a shooter?
They should look into this so that they can correctly label players during game.
I don't want to hear Kessel and Sniper in the same sentence if he's shooting under 10% one year.
13.5%/minimum 200 shots .. It's in the official NHL glossary

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09-29-2011, 12:14 PM
  #147
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Kessel's not a sniper now?

you learn something every day.

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09-29-2011, 02:17 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Dreakmur... You have no idea what you're talking about... You can't simply base being a sniper off shooting percentages or however you're saying.
I just explained why you can't use shooting percentage as the measure.

I have said, right from the start, a sniper is a guy who will score on a high percentage of his quality scoring chances.

Kessel's lower shooting percentage has nothing to do with this. Watch him play - he has poor instincts around the net. He has no idea how to read the goalie, see the holes, or open them up if they aren't there.

Quote:
While the definition of sniper, playmaker, pwf, etc is subjective, for the most part, I'm gonna go ahead and stop you when you start claiming Tyler Bozak is a better sniper than Kessel.
Tyler Bozak is better around the net than Phil Kessel. Give both guys the same number and quality of good scoring chances, and Bozak will put more in the net than Kessel.

Quote:
Many things are needed to call someone a sniper. One of them is the velocity of the shot, and I don't think anyone can dispute Kessels wrister is ridiculously fast. Second, is accuracy... Can he pick off corners, one of the five general holes in a goalie (low blocker/glove, high right/left shoulder, and five hole). I think we can all agree that Kessel can pick off these spots with ease. Third, we look at release.
You are explaining what makes a good shot, not what makes a sniper.

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09-29-2011, 02:20 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I just explained why you can't use shooting percentage as the measure.

I have said, right from the start, a sniper is a guy who will score on a high percentage of his quality scoring chances.

Kessel's lower shooting percentage has nothing to do with this. Watch him play - he has poor instincts around the net. He has no idea how to read the goalie, see the holes, or open them up if they aren't there.



Tyler Bozak is better around the net than Phil Kessel. Give both guys the same number and quality of good scoring chances, and Bozak will put more in the net than Kessel.



You are explaining what makes a good shot, not what makes a sniper.

obvious troll is obvious.

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Old
09-29-2011, 02:57 PM
  #150
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okay i think this thread is just recycling things that are already said and basically going no where.

Closed.


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