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Old
09-29-2011, 03:15 PM
  #51
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amazing how an outsider who has dealt with having the opposite situation grasps this so readily...
So you're familiar with the Atlanta "LOL! Defense!" policy

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09-29-2011, 03:23 PM
  #52
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So you're familiar with the Atlanta "LOL! Defense!" policy
Ssssshhhhh! Stop giving us 'perspective'! It's bad for morale.



Last edited by Firestorm: 09-29-2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Can't spell...
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09-29-2011, 03:23 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
What he is saying is that if Poile ran the team with the same amount of patience often displayed around here (very little) then we would have a team with several holes rather than a team with one.

But I could be wrong
An NHL gm is probably better than running a franchise then a message board? Nice insight there.

I don't understand why posts like that are allowed on here. Any sports forum will have discussions, not only on play but on players too. Heaven forbid people discuss the latter or even have an opinion of acquiring players.

Different people have varying opinions on how to fix the team. Funny how one group of posters continually just bash the others as impatient and not knowing how to run an NHL team. Instead of bashing the forum just post your opinion.

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09-29-2011, 03:24 PM
  #54
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So you're familiar with the Atlanta "LOL! Defense!" policy
yes, just as there will be times when you would think our strategy is to try to play 82 0-0 games and win them all in a shootout

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09-29-2011, 04:08 PM
  #55
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I must say though, having legwand, fisher, and hartnell would be tough for any team to play against in the playoffs!

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09-29-2011, 05:09 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
yes, just as there will be times when you would think our strategy is to try to play 82 0-0 games and win them all in a shootout
We tried that too. Too bad ondrej pavelec was all "Lol! Shootout!"

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09-29-2011, 06:39 PM
  #57
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Why do the Preds make so many deals with Philly? Is it because they are in the other conference?

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09-29-2011, 06:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
An NHL gm is probably better than running a franchise then a message board? Nice insight there.

I don't understand why posts like that are allowed on here. Any sports forum will have discussions, not only on play but on players too. Heaven forbid people discuss the latter or even have an opinion of acquiring players.

Different people have varying opinions on how to fix the team. Funny how one group of posters continually just bash the others as impatient and not knowing how to run an NHL team. Instead of bashing the forum just post your opinion.
Stop talking logic that isn't allowed around here. We must accept that Poile is god or else the commissars of the message boards will shoot us.

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09-29-2011, 07:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
yes, just as there will be times when you would think our strategy is to try to play 82 0-0 games and win them all in a shootout
yup, the let's give our fans their money's worth and give them a heartburn coupon on the way out!! I remember this!

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09-29-2011, 07:57 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
An NHL gm is probably better than running a franchise then a message board? Nice insight there.

I don't understand why posts like that are allowed on here. Any sports forum will have discussions, not only on play but on players too. Heaven forbid people discuss the latter or even have an opinion of acquiring players.

Different people have varying opinions on how to fix the team. Funny how one group of posters continually just bash the others as impatient and not knowing how to run an NHL team. Instead of bashing the forum just post your opinion.
I'm not sure how much of this post, if any, is directed towards me, but I have given my opinion several times without bashing anyone. To say that some folks have less patience than others isn't an insult. It's just the way it is. Hell, my dad had absolutely no patience for years. He's an all right guy

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09-30-2011, 12:04 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Clearly if Poile goes after a goal scorer the team will become the Jackets or Thrashers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
An NHL gm is probably better than running a franchise then a message board? Nice insight there.

I don't understand why posts like that are allowed on here. Any sports forum will have discussions, not only on play but on players too. Heaven forbid people discuss the latter or even have an opinion of acquiring players.

Different people have varying opinions on how to fix the team. Funny how one group of posters continually just bash the others as impatient and not knowing how to run an NHL team. Instead of bashing the forum just post your opinion.
Actually, going after a scorer at all cost while ignoring where the issues truly lie would make us the Thrashers or Jackets. Both of those clubs made knee jerk moves over the years with nothing to show for it while having great individual scorers. As I said, the team has one area that needs to be fixed and that is 5on4 scoring.
In EVERY other area they are in the top 1/3 to 1/2 of the league.

Having 30 goal scorers is not an indicator of TEAM success ... look at the Isles, Flames (a 40+ goal scorer), Canes, Stars, and Leafs who all missed the playoffs with that magical scorer. Then there were teams like the Ducks who had multiple 30 goal scorers but made the Preds PP look potent in the post season. Over half of the 30 goal scorers in the league were on those six teams.

Team building takes patience and forethought. Trying to do it without tanking for years is almost unheard of. For all of the griping about particular moves Poile makes it's hard to argue against the overall results ... top five regular season record since the lockout, playoffs made every year but one since 03-04, while working on a tight budget. Now if he and Trotz can fix the PP this becomes a truly dangerous team that contends in the post season.

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09-30-2011, 06:52 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Actually, going after a scorer at all cost while ignoring where the issues truly lie would make us the Thrashers or Jackets. Both of those clubs made knee jerk moves over the years with nothing to show for it while having great individual scorers. As I said, the team has one area that needs to be fixed and that is 5on4 scoring.
In EVERY other area they are in the top 1/3 to 1/2 of the league.

Having 30 goal scorers is not an indicator of TEAM success ... look at the Isles, Flames (a 40+ goal scorer), Canes, Stars, and Leafs who all missed the playoffs with that magical scorer. Then there were teams like the Ducks who had multiple 30 goal scorers but made the Preds PP look potent in the post season. Over half of the 30 goal scorers in the league were on those six teams.

Team building takes patience and forethought. Trying to do it without tanking for years is almost unheard of. For all of the griping about particular moves Poile makes it's hard to argue against the overall results ... top five regular season record since the lockout, playoffs made every year but one since 03-04, while working on a tight budget. Now if he and Trotz can fix the PP this becomes a truly dangerous team that contends in the post season.
I haven't seen anyone advocate acquiring a true scorer at "all costs.". Poile himself has said that drafting isn't about need, it's about building assets. Can you really deny that we have a pretty impressive cupboard of picks and defensive prospects? They can't all play, so doesn't it make sense to trade from a surplus to address an area that you're not as strong? I don't expect a 30-35 goal scorer to be the panacea, but I'm not going to pretend that it wouldn't seriously help. While you're mentioning the Predators' relative "success"(as you define it) since 03/04, there is a flip side to that coin that you shouldn't neglect: one playoff round won in that time. Bottom third in scoring every year since 06-07. Bottom FIVE in power play over that time. I'm happy that we haven't been the Thrashers, to use your comparison, but as Stranger alludes, there's a such thing as adding to your team in a manner that isn't knee jerk. I haven't seen anyone suggest trading our next 4 firsts for Hartnell. The most value Ive seen mentioned for that particular player was my own proposal: Josi and O'Reilly. An injury prone defenseman that has great upside and an average center that has been mostly irrelevant at the NHL level. I'm aware that Josi is a fantastic player and it would suck to lose him, but unless he turned into an outright superstar, even if he became a great number 3, the presence of Ellis, Ekholm,Blum, Klein, and yes, Suter and Weber, makes it hurt not THAT much.

I don't even know that Hartnell is really the best answer, but I wouldn't write him off or pretend we don't need him because of what Smith or Geoffrion might do. Again--no one thinks that adding another 25 goal guy would fix everything and magically cure the power play--but the "wait and see if this year is different" approach hasn't worked, so maybe it's time to give something else a try? And making such a move doesn't put us in a category with Calgary, Atlanta, Toronto, etc--because unlike those teams, we have the core in place. We have a puzzle that seems so close to being assembled, save that one last big corner piece. And best of all, we have some Legos that we can give to our friend for that last piece so that we close the gap without opening another. Implying that trading a good prospect and an average forward would send us plummeting to the bottom of the league and down the chute to eventual relocation is really, really far to the other end of the crazy spectrum that the few calling for scoring at all costs reside on.

So, to continue the analogy--it becomes a little annoying when certain posters, time after time, post in EVERY thread discussing outside help to address scoring issues, "no, you idiots. Our puzzle looks fine. Just squint at it a little, you can barely notice the missing piece. We may not have the best looking puzzle in the room, but at least we're not one of those 5 kids over there. And no, we have to keep our Legos because I like the color, and even if they don't really have a place in the puzzle, I'd hate to have some other kid playing with them, and my dad told me that those Legos are the best, anyway."

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09-30-2011, 07:59 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I haven't seen anyone advocate acquiring a true scorer at "all costs.". Poile himself has said that drafting isn't about need, it's about building assets. Can you really deny that we have a pretty impressive cupboard of picks and defensive prospects? They can't all play, so doesn't it make sense to trade from a surplus to address an area that you're not as strong? I don't expect a 30-35 goal scorer to be the panacea, but I'm not going to pretend that it wouldn't seriously help. While you're mentioning the Predators' relative "success"(as you define it) since 03/04, there is a flip side to that coin that you shouldn't neglect: one playoff round won in that time. Bottom third in scoring every year since 06-07. Bottom FIVE in power play over that time. I'm happy that we haven't been the Thrashers, to use your comparison, but as Stranger alludes, there's a such thing as adding to your team in a manner that isn't knee jerk. I haven't seen anyone suggest trading our next 4 firsts for Hartnell. The most value Ive seen mentioned for that particular player was my own proposal: Josi and O'Reilly. An injury prone defenseman that has great upside and an average center that has been mostly irrelevant at the NHL level. I'm aware that Josi is a fantastic player and it would suck to lose him, but unless he turned into an outright superstar, even if he became a great number 3, the presence of Ellis, Ekholm,Blum, Klein, and yes, Suter and Weber, makes it hurt not THAT much.

I don't even know that Hartnell is really the best answer, but I wouldn't write him off or pretend we don't need him because of what Smith or Geoffrion might do. Again--no one thinks that adding another 25 goal guy would fix everything and magically cure the power play--but the "wait and see if this year is different" approach hasn't worked, so maybe it's time to give something else a try? And making such a move doesn't put us in a category with Calgary, Atlanta, Toronto, etc--because unlike those teams, we have the core in place. We have a puzzle that seems so close to being assembled, save that one last big corner piece. And best of all, we have some Legos that we can give to our friend for that last piece so that we close the gap without opening another. Implying that trading a good prospect and an average forward would send us plummeting to the bottom of the league and down the chute to eventual relocation is really, really far to the other end of the crazy spectrum that the few calling for scoring at all costs reside on.

So, to continue the analogy--it becomes a little annoying when certain posters, time after time, post in EVERY thread discussing outside help to address scoring issues, "no, you idiots. Our puzzle looks fine. Just squint at it a little, you can barely notice the missing piece. We may not have the best looking puzzle in the room, but at least we're not one of those 5 kids over there. And no, we have to keep our Legos because I like the color, and even if they don't really have a place in the puzzle, I'd hate to have some other kid playing with them, and my dad told me that those Legos are the best, anyway."
When you say it like that, why would Philly accept the trade? Especially for a player with value like Scott Hartnell?

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09-30-2011, 08:01 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Actually, going after a scorer at all cost while ignoring where the issues truly lie would make us the Thrashers or Jackets. Both of those clubs made knee jerk moves over the years with nothing to show for it while having great individual scorers. As I said, the team has one area that needs to be fixed and that is 5on4 scoring.
In EVERY other area they are in the top 1/3 to 1/2 of the league.
I haven't seen anyone post to go after a scorer at all costs.

Bottom line is you don't win a Stanley Cup without a top 10 offense. Whether that be a forward, increased PP, a bunch of prospects blooming at the same time, whatever.

The team is close and I don't think getting a scorer would send this franchise into a tailspin like Columbus or the Thrashers. If so, the Forsberg deal would have did us in. We have too good of management. Even if we did a Forsberg deal today we'd be fine. We too good of management and coaching for that stuff to happen.

People can differ on how this team can get a better offense, but we have a consistent group of people who continually run into threads and bash people who suggest anything other than waiting for prospects to bloom.

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09-30-2011, 08:07 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherHockeyFan View Post
When you say it like that, why would Philly accept the trade?
Because, injury prone or not, Josi is still a pretty great prospect. We can afford to take those risks in giving someone like that up more than other teams that might not have such a pipeline of great prospects.

Getting back to the conversation at hand...I know that we've beaten the "we didn't have the assets to land Carter or Richards\yes we did" argument to death, but philosophically -- I really wish we could have made one of those deals. While Hartnell would be a nice component, and I think he'd make us a better team -- I feel like a very rare opportunity to legitimately fill our biggest hole might have come along and passed us by. I guess those feelings of loss and regret go away if we shockingly acquire say, Parise, but I've been around long enough to be realistic about that.

Sigh!

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09-30-2011, 09:02 AM
  #66
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Stranger,
It's funny that in your call for discussion you question why certain types of posts are even allowed on here. That just makes it appear that you only want varying degrees of your own opinion, not true divergence of ideas.

Two huge questions remain around bringing Hartnell back. The first would his return help fix the one area in which the Preds have lacked the past few seasons, 5on4 play? He's averaged 6 PP goals over the past three seasons ... for comparison Ryan Jones was traded away averaging 4 per season with the Preds with less time and Arnott had as many PP goals in his final three seasons with the Preds as Hartnell has in four seasons with the Flyers. Secondly, if it is deemed he would help fix the hole that is 5on4 play, can Poile get him without creating other holes or jeopardizing the team over the next couple years? I don't see him helping with our lacking PP faceoff percentage, he might help some on zone entry, but we'd still lack a QB for the man advantage.

The Preds have had 30+ goal scorers in two of the past three seasons without it translating to power play success. What the Preds haven't had in the past few seasons is a true QB for the PP ... or a good face off % with the man advantage ... or anything resembling a consistent zone entry on the PP.

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09-30-2011, 09:20 AM
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Stranger,
It's funny that in your call for discussion you question why certain types of posts are even allowed on here. That just makes it appear that you only want varying degrees of your own opinion, not true divergence of ideas.
It wasn't the opinion but how people slag other posters.

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09-30-2011, 09:39 AM
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Anyone who says that no one has suggested going afte a scorer at all costs needs to reread all the weber thread hysteria.

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09-30-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post

Team building takes patience and forethought. Trying to do it without tanking for years is almost unheard of. For all of the griping about particular moves Poile makes it's hard to argue against the overall results ... top five regular season record since the lockout, playoffs made every year but one since 03-04, while working on a tight budget. Now if he and Trotz can fix the PP this becomes a truly dangerous team that contends in the post season.

I disagree that this is any sort of an achievement.

This is a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. It's statistically easier to make the playoffs then not. Regular season points are meaningless (if anything, all the points racked up in the regular season just underscores the level of underachievement when it comes to the playoffs).

We've had 2 successful seasons in our existence - the first year we made the playoffs and last year.

Eeking into the playoffs as the #8 seed and getting blown off the ice every year - people aren't going to buy that much longer, with ever escalating ticket prices, etc. And when that happens, where is this franchise?

I'm not saying I know better than DP, but since when are GM's infallible (Fire Millen, Mike Milbury)?

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09-30-2011, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherHockeyFan View Post
When you say it like that, why would Philly accept the trade? Especially for a player with value like Scott Hartnell?
maybe we need to understand what his trade value is. the questions that need to be answered are: do his stats live up to the contract? health? has he passed his prime/in his prime? does he fit?

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09-30-2011, 09:56 AM
  #71
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It seems like there's a pretty big rift in our fan base right now...

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09-30-2011, 10:03 AM
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I disagree that this is any sort of an achievement.

This is a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. It's statistically easier to make the playoffs then not. Regular season points are meaningless (if anything, all the points racked up in the regular season just underscores the level of underachievement when it comes to the playoffs).

We've had 2 successful seasons in our existence - the first year we made the playoffs and last year.

Eeking into the playoffs as the #8 seed and getting blown off the ice every year - people aren't going to buy that much longer, with ever escalating ticket prices, etc. And when that happens, where is this franchise?

I'm not saying I know better than DP, but since when are GM's infallible (Fire Millen, Mike Milbury)?
So ... one of the two "successful" seasons in the team's existence (by your assertion) is one where the team was a #8 seed? You're contradicting yourself.

Blown off the ice? For the most part every series has been a collection of hard fought, one goal games where the Preds came up short more often than not ... including the only time in NHL history where the two teams that led the conference in wins met in the first round (that would be a 50+ win season in the team's first decade, a feat it took the Canucks 40+ years to accomplish). If we were getting blown off the ice in the Chicago series there would be no reason to keep rehashing the final minute and OT of game 5.

Considering the constraints this team operates within, the top five record over the past six seasons is remarkable. This is a team that can't just throw money at problems, yet still manages to do well in every aspect of the game but one while excelling in several. Multiple 30 goal scorers on a team that somehow maintained its defensive prowess would result in an Utopian experience ... but the pieces most likely to bring back some great scorer are the very ones needed to keep the defense going. It's a catch-22.

There is a difference between realistic expectations and hopes. Confusing the two results in nothing but disappointment from something that is supposed to be entertainment.

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09-30-2011, 10:06 AM
  #73
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If we are trading for Hartnell Poile better get on the phone to Washington. Lindback + Ekholm for Vokoun. We're getting the band back together.

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09-30-2011, 10:18 AM
  #74
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101st

No we have realistic expectations but you choose to write off our proposed plans and discussion as radical heresy against the Preds. We all agree Poile has put us in a great position, but now it is time to take it up a notch and push to the top. We haven't seen that this offseason, we continue to see it as we get closer to camp. Yes we have a very good team and yes our preseason record is great, but I look at this roster and I think "gee, I really don't think we are going to be able to compete night in and night out against the San Jose's and the Canucks, or even LA this year" That isn't a good feeling. And for management to come out and say "we are going to be spending more this year" and having the exact opposite happen, for Poile to say "just chill about weber" and then have it go to arbitration, for all the talk of Spaling being a top six (I mean really?) I think some of us have a right to be mad at our current situation. We have **** ton of unknowns on this team. Will SK produce at the same rate as last year? Will Bergfors score the goals? Will Wilson finally put it all together? Does O'Reilly suck?

I would rather go into this year thinking "we obtained a top six if not top 3 talent at forward and sacrificed some of our prospects" than "we did absolutely jack ****."

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09-30-2011, 10:44 AM
  #75
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Anyone who says that no one has suggested going afte a scorer at all costs needs to reread all the weber thread hysteria.
Source containing anything resembling at all costs?

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