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Old
09-30-2011, 10:47 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I don't even know that Hartnell is really the best answer, but I wouldn't write him off or pretend we don't need him because of what Smith or Geoffrion might do. Again--no one thinks that adding another 25 goal guy would fix everything and magically cure the power play--but the "wait and see if this year is different" approach hasn't worked, so maybe it's time to give something else a try? And making such a move doesn't put us in a category with Calgary, Atlanta, Toronto, etc--because unlike those teams, we have the core in place. We have a puzzle that seems so close to being assembled, save that one last big corner piece. And best of all, we have some Legos that we can give to our friend for that last piece so that we close the gap without opening another. Implying that trading a good prospect and an average forward would send us plummeting to the bottom of the league and down the chute to eventual relocation is really, really far to the other end of the crazy spectrum that the few calling for scoring at all costs reside on.
I agree with basically your entire post (except I don't really see a lot of the so-called bashing of other posters very often, and when it does happen it comes from both sides). Personally, I am a Poile supporter just like most of us, even those who routinely question how he operates. I like to think that neither extreme intrigues me enough to be unfair when giving my opinions, but who knows? Maybe I have offended some people. Honestly, since I have been trying to NOT offend anyone I couldn't care less if I have done so inadvertently. That might seem callous. Oh well...

There seem to be two "extremes" in this conversation, and both extremes seem to be manufactured by the person holding the opposite view. Someone might be advocating a patient approach where you wait for the right deal in order to maximize the return on valuable assets, and this is considered the poster-bashing, Poile-loving, wait-and-see group who is apparently perfectly fine with first round exits. And then there is the group who wants to see more activity, signs of life in what has been a summer during which the only signs of life have been gasps for air. Those people are accused of wanting to sell the farm for a fly-by-night fix that is more likely to do nothing (or, to the most recent extreme, will turn us into a club that makes moves with no real direction) than it is to help us.

The correct view, as usual, is somewhere in between. Poile should aggressively look for the correct piece, and then should absolutely use some of the assets we have built up to land that piece (hey! how about that! exactly what basically everyone on both sides has been saying all along, but without the ********). This is an approach that will take some patience, but it isn't an impossible task. Fans should feel like they have the right to critique the moves made by management, but they should also realize that they know very little about what is actually going on in Poile's office. Saying "Poile sits on his hands because he wants to keep his prospects" is just as extreme as saying "making a move just to make one will turn us into another Columbus."

The debate would be more constructive if we talked about what that correct piece is rather than bickering back and forth about whether or not Poile has failed at his job because he has not yet gotten that piece. Is it Hartnell? I don't know. I don't think it is. I'm not necessarily opposed to getting him any more, but I am concerned that getting him will cost us too much in assets and salary to truly address the problem on our PP. That is assuming, of course, that Hartnell doesn't address that issue.


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09-30-2011, 11:00 AM
  #77
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101st

No we have realistic expectations but you choose to write off our proposed plans and discussion as radical heresy against the Preds. We all agree Poile has put us in a great position, but now it is time to take it up a notch and push to the top. We haven't seen that this offseason, we continue to see it as we get closer to camp. Yes we have a very good team and yes our preseason record is great, but I look at this roster and I think "gee, I really don't think we are going to be able to compete night in and night out against the San Jose's and the Canucks, or even LA this year" That isn't a good feeling. And for management to come out and say "we are going to be spending more this year" and having the exact opposite happen, for Poile to say "just chill about weber" and then have it go to arbitration, for all the talk of Spaling being a top six (I mean really?) I think some of us have a right to be mad at our current situation. We have **** ton of unknowns on this team. Will SK produce at the same rate as last year? Will Bergfors score the goals? Will Wilson finally put it all together? Does O'Reilly suck?

I would rather go into this year thinking "we obtained a top six if not top 3 talent at forward and sacrificed some of our prospects" than "we did absolutely jack ****."
Here's a revelation for you ... every year is nothing but unknowns. If we trade for Hartnell does he put up 08-09 numbers or 09-10 numbers? There's a difference of 16 goals between the two. We'll see who across the league stays healthy, who outperforms all expectations, who underperforms ... the great unknowns of absolutely every season. If everything was predictable before a season there would be no reason to watch and no drama.

A Cup or nothing mentality is only setting yourself up for disappointment. Watching hockey is supposed to be entertainment and it sure as hell isn't life or death.

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09-30-2011, 11:06 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Here's a revelation for you ... every year is nothing but unknowns. If we trade for Hartnell does he put up 08-09 numbers or 09-10 numbers? There's a difference of 16 goals between the two. We'll see who across the league stays healthy, who outperforms all expectations, who underperforms ... the great unknowns of absolutely every season. If everything was predictable before a season there would be no reason to watch and no drama.

A Cup or nothing mentality is only setting yourself up for disappointment. Watching hockey is supposed to be entertainment and it sure as hell isn't life or death.
I've given up arguing with you. It's no longer worth the headache. However, I would encourage you to stop belittling posters. It's getting old.

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09-30-2011, 11:31 AM
  #79
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It seems like there's a pretty big rift in our fan base right now...

more like a pretty big rift in the folks who post on here.

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09-30-2011, 11:42 AM
  #80
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So ... one of the two "successful" seasons in the team's existence (by your assertion) is one where the team was a #8 seed? You're contradicting yourself.

I don't believe I am. An expansion team making the playoffs for the first time is good news. Big news. It means all those seasons taking your lumps while building the farm has paid off. After that though, merely finishing in the top spot of the bottom half of the western conference is not an accomplishment.

Blown off the ice? For the most part every series has been a collection of hard fought, one goal games where the Preds came up short more often than not ... including the only time in NHL history where the two teams that led the conference in wins met in the first round (that would be a 50+ win season in the team's first decade, a feat it took the Canucks 40+ years to accomplish). If we were getting blown off the ice in the Chicago series there would be no reason to keep rehashing the final minute and OT of game 5.

We need to get past the moral victory stage. I don't like the be patted on the head, "oh what a scrappy team" after losing a playoff series. We "almost" beat Chicago. We "almost" beat Vancouver. There's no "almost" championship. Close only counts in horseshoes and grenades. Again, do you want to look back at this window that we have and say - "Geez, we we're close"? Continually being satisfied with "Above average hockey on a budget" will get this team nowhere but Hamilton, as the fan base is going to become jaded to our "hard fought 8th place finishes".


Considering the constraints this team operates within, the top five record over the past six seasons is remarkable. This is a team that can't just throw money at problems, yet still manages to do well in every aspect of the game but one while excelling in several. Multiple 30 goal scorers on a team that somehow maintained its defensive prowess would result in an Utopian experience ... but the pieces most likely to bring back some great scorer are the very ones needed to keep the defense going. It's a catch-22.

I understand that we'll never throw cash at a problem. I know we're a small market, and probably will always be relative to the toronto's and NYR's. I also know that this will result in a franchise that will probably alternate between windows of opportunity and rebuilding. I'm ok with that. I can withstand rebuilding as long as we really try when the window is there. And make no mistake, this window is closing. The captain has one foot out the door. That run of a stocked farm system only lasts for so long (no one is immune to busted draft picks). Do you want to look back at a time when we had 3 top 5 in the NHL talents at their positions, all on cheap contracts, and all you have to show for it is a second round loss? But hey, we didn't blow our budget!

There is a difference between realistic expectations and hopes. Confusing the two results in nothing but disappointment from something that is supposed to be entertainment.

I expect and hope that a team that was pretty close to something special last year would do everything it possibly could to make sure that it iced the best possible team the next year to try and get that cup. I don't believe that has been done this offseason.
.........

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09-30-2011, 02:04 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
We all agree Poile has put us in a great position, but now it is time to take it up a notch and push to the top. We haven't seen that this offseason, we continue to see it as we get closer to camp.
Um... Last year we all called for a youth movement. We said that Halischuk, Geoffrion, Blum, Ellis, Bourque, etc were all ready to step in and play NHL minutes. We ALL said that what was holding us back were players like JP, Sullivan, Goc (who was on a list of redundant players like him and Ward), O'Brien, and Boullion. Now that we have shed these players from our roster, we replace them with YOUNGER, more talented (currently, much less in the future) players that have higher ceilings.

To me, that IS getting better. Just because we didn't waste $2-5M on a player that will give us 30-45 points doesn't mean we didn't get better. In sports with minor leagues (baseball & hockey), all of the time teams get better through their minor league system -- unless you are the red sox and yankees (in which case Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Jeter, Gardner, Cano, MoRivera, Posada, etc all came from their minor league system -- so that exception is not technically true).

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09-30-2011, 02:37 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
.........
What you consider a successful year was one where the team actually backed into the playoffs ... yet you overlook 51 win season. I find that a bit contradictory. This team has two 8th seed finishes 03-04 (a success) and 07-08 (season after the firesale). We're just as likely to be a 4/5 seed as a 7/8 seed and with Chicago and Detroit in our division, it will take quite a bit to get a top three seeding.

Sometimes teams meet teams that they simply don't match well against. It happened to us against the Sharks when both teams won 51 regular season games, tied for the most wins in the conference, yet neither team even won their division. That's about the same statistical chance as getting struck by lightning while winning the lottery and having a supermodel pledge her undying love for you ... but it happened to us. We didn't get blown off the ice, but lost nonetheless. Getting blown off the ice is a sweep of lopsided games, not a six game series of one goal games. Other than game six of the 03-04 series, the team has been in pretty much every post season game with a chance to win. It's not a moral victory because those don't exist, but, it's an acknowledgement of entertaining and well played hockey. I didn't have any money riding on the series, nor was my job on the line. I watch hockey for entertainment purposes and as much as I might yell and scream at the action during a game, it is just a game that really has no serious impact on my quality of life.

As for the budget, the reality is that this team simply cannot afford to bust it. Factoring in callups, this team is close spending more than last year even after the buyouts , trading away Lombardi and Franson, and having a team of youngsters. The total after players not qualifying for bonuses last year was $50.9mil ... we're at $49-50mil (approx) including bonuses right now but before callups. Without trading Franson and Lombardi, the team would be a couple million over last season's pay numbers. The game of chicken that both Poile and Weber played hurt the team. Yes, both of them earned a lot of blame over the summer. Domino one never fell this summer so, sorry if I see it as logical that the rest didn't fall afterwards, but that's just how things look from my foxhole. There simply wasn't much on the market after the team got domino one toppled and cleared some dead salary that gave the team roster flexibility.

That level of payroll is hard for a team with the relatively small paying attendance to sustain. 16k average paid at an average of $50 per seat doesn't generate $33mil ... and the team doesn't average either of those numbers. For the team to survive requires minimizing on ice losses, qualifying for every phase of revenue sharing, and maximizing revenue from off ice events.

With all of those factors it comes down to the team making the right move, not just a move. Hartnell is an intriguing choice, but, I question if he can be the fix to our 5on4 PP woes. Our PP face off % needs improvement ... Harts doesn't help there. We lack a PP QB ... no help there. His PP goal scoring average is lower than Arnott's ... so at best it's a wash from two seasons ago. His ability on the puck might help with our zone entry. Let's be honest with ourselves, 5on4 play is our Achilles heel of late. We hold our own in every other offensive category and excel in some of the defensive stats. If we couldn't score in any situation, it's easy to say we need scorers, but, we only come up short in one aspect which is frustrating as hell and perplexing.

I like what Smith and Ellis bring with their skillsets, but I doubt either of them is playing a major role on day one. If Ellis can bring his game to the NHL level, we get that QB we've lacked since, dare I say it, Zidlicky. Smith seems to be shooting the puck from everywhere ... which plays into Hornqvist's game of deflections and rebounds.

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09-30-2011, 02:52 PM
  #83
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Anyone willing to bet that if we trade for Hartnell, Weber breaks nails him on a re-direct attempt, breaking at least one bone.It's been a while since Captain Canada has hurt one of his teammates.

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09-30-2011, 02:58 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
Anyone willing to bet that if we trade for Hartnell, Weber breaks nails him on a re-direct attempt, breaking at least one bone.It's been a while since Captain Canada has hurt one of his teammates.
Captain Canada? We're trading for Ryan Smyth too?

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09-30-2011, 07:15 PM
  #85
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Hi Nashville: a friendly reply from a Flyers fan!

We have rumors on our side of Voracek, our 1st and 2nd for Suter or
Hartnell and Nodl for a D prospect and your 2nd

Voracek has played ok in pre-season, and you guys know better than us that
with Hartnell what you see is what you get; good guy and a great fore-checker
and chips in 15-25 goals depending on the bounces; Nodl great Pker but can not
score a goal if he was only the skater on the ice and the goalie was pulled

What we want to see is: we give you: Walker and Shelley: in return a bag of pucks

What Predators would you guys give up for a bag of pucks? ;-)))

Hey maybe that should be the trade: we give you a bag of Philly pucks and you
give us a bag of Predator pucks and we call it even! ;-)))

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09-30-2011, 07:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Flyers1974 View Post
Hi Nashville: a friendly reply from a Flyers fan!

We have rumors on our side of Voracek, our 1st and 2nd for Suter or
Hartnell and Nodl for a D prospect and your 2nd

Voracek has played ok in pre-season, and you guys know better than us that
with Hartnell what you see is what you get; good guy and a great fore-checker
and chips in 15-25 goals depending on the bounces; Nodl great Pker but can not
score a goal if he was only the skater on the ice and the goalie was pulled

What we want to see is: we give you: Walker and Shelley: in return a bag of pucks

What Predators would you guys give up for a bag of pucks? ;-)))

Hey maybe that should be the trade: we give you a bag of Philly pucks and you
give us a bag of Predator pucks and we call it even! ;-)))
Nashville won't move Suter for anything but a bonafide 1st line scorer. We don't want picks, we're in win now mode.

The 2nd deal is workable, depending on the D prospect. Personally, I'd move any D prospect we have except for Ellis/Blum in a move for Hartnell.

I'd even give up a 2nd prospect i.e. Josi+prospect+2nd.

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09-30-2011, 10:46 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers1974 View Post
Hi Nashville: a friendly reply from a Flyers fan!

We have rumors on our side of Voracek, our 1st and 2nd for Suter or
Hartnell and Nodl for a D prospect and your 2nd

Voracek has played ok in pre-season, and you guys know better than us that
with Hartnell what you see is what you get; good guy and a great fore-checker
and chips in 15-25 goals depending on the bounces; Nodl great Pker but can not
score a goal if he was only the skater on the ice and the goalie was pulled

What we want to see is: we give you: Walker and Shelley: in return a bag of pucks

What Predators would you guys give up for a bag of pucks? ;-)))

Hey maybe that should be the trade: we give you a bag of Philly pucks and you
give us a bag of Predator pucks and we call it even! ;-)))
Seeing either of Voracek or Shelley in Preds gold would cause heads to explode up here.

In all seriousness, though, while Voracek is likely to eventually be a top-line player, he isn't yet and so Suter isn't a sane option. Plus, the top-line guy the Preds really need would be more of a trigger-puller than a playmaker - they've already got some damn good playmakers. A goal-scoring power forward would be something beyond perfect, but those aren't exactly easy to come by.

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10-01-2011, 02:48 AM
  #88
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Just for curiosity sakes, if Nashville had of offered the exact same deal to Philly that columbus offered to get Carter, but we switched voracek and put in Wilson, who would the flyers rather have traded with?

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10-01-2011, 03:08 AM
  #89
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Just for curiosity sakes, if Nashville had of offered the exact same deal to Philly that columbus offered to get Carter, but we switched voracek and put in Wilson, who would the flyers rather have traded with?
Wilson and Vorachek are interchangeable based on NHL performance with Wilson probably having more potential upside. That said, we didn't have a draft pick comparable to what Columbus offered so Carter still probably ends up as a Jacket. #8 overall vs a 2nd rounder isn't even close. To make that deal with Wilson as the centerpiece would have required trading assets for a top ten pick, then bundling that pick with Wilson to get Carter.

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10-01-2011, 11:20 AM
  #90
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Another reply from a friendly Flyer!

The face of the Flyers is now is JvR and Giroux. JvR is that power forward that you
guys covet; some one that can put the puck in the net. He is going to be tremendous this year, we are predicting Tim Kerr, John LeClair numbers from this dude. No way he going to Nashville unless you gave us BOTH Suter AND Weber. And you know that is NEVER going to happen. Ditto Giroux.

I saw your list of top ten prospects, very VERY impressive. I hope for you they all
pan out and I hope you kill the Red Wings. I think Philly hates them as much as you do.
Truly, wish you guys the best, maybe we will meet in the SC finals some day! And when
your team plays Columbus watch out for Carter; He will kill you with that snap shot of his.

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10-01-2011, 11:27 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Flyers1974 View Post
Another reply from a friendly Flyer!

The face of the Flyers is now is JvR and Giroux. JvR is that power forward that you
guys covet; some one that can put the puck in the net. He is going to be tremendous this year, we are predicting Tim Kerr, John LeClair numbers from this dude. No way he going to Nashville unless you gave us BOTH Suter AND Weber. And you know that is NEVER going to happen. Ditto Giroux.

I saw your list of top ten prospects, very VERY impressive. I hope for you they all
pan out and I hope you kill the Red Wings. I think Philly hates them as much as you do.
Truly, wish you guys the best, maybe we will meet in the SC finals some day! And when
your team plays Columbus watch out for Carter; He will kill you with that snap shot of his.
Unless Weber literally kills Carter with that slap shot of his

Actually, I take that back. With my luck it would really happen...

And Philly can't afford both Weber and Suter, though I get your point about JVR being untouchable after the Carter and Richards trades. A team needs good center depth to be successful.

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10-01-2011, 01:41 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Wilson and Vorachek are interchangeable based on NHL performance with Wilson probably having more potential upside. That said, we didn't have a draft pick comparable to what Columbus offered so Carter still probably ends up as a Jacket. #8 overall vs a 2nd rounder isn't even close. To make that deal with Wilson as the centerpiece would have required trading assets for a top ten pick, then bundling that pick with Wilson to get Carter.
Essentially the deal would have been Wilson, Ellis, and the draft pick. Its debatable which is worth more, Ellis or the 8th overall pre-draft. At the draft table, Courterier was inexplicably available and obviously holds more value to the Flyers. Pre-draft, I'm not so sure this would have been the situation. *Shrug*. Either way, the value would be close. Throw in another forward prospect (of which we have several very good second-tier prospects), and I think it is comparable if not better. I think long-term Wilson would be a better player for the Flyers.

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10-01-2011, 01:44 PM
  #93
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Or couldn't we have just given them our 2012, first overall and thrown in a decent prospect?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Wilson and Vorachek are interchangeable based on NHL performance with Wilson probably having more potential upside. That said, we didn't have a draft pick comparable to what Columbus offered so Carter still probably ends up as a Jacket. #8 overall vs a 2nd rounder isn't even close. To make that deal with Wilson as the centerpiece would have required trading assets for a top ten pick, then bundling that pick with Wilson to get Carter.

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10-01-2011, 02:04 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Wilson and Vorachek are interchangeable based on NHL performance with Wilson probably having more potential upside.
Ehwha? Voracek's played one more season than Wilson and has outperformed him literally every single season. Heck, Jake's worst NHL season is still above Wilson's best so far (although admittedly I doubt that'll last ). And Philly desperately needed a playmaking winger, not a budding power forward - they already have JvR.

Wilson doesn't fill a need there, and so wouldn't have worked as the centerpiece IMO. I'm still convinced the only way Carter would have been a Pred would have been if Rinne was offered before Holmgren started talking to Phoenix.

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10-01-2011, 02:33 PM
  #95
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Ehwha? Voracek's played one more season than Wilson and has outperformed him literally every single season. Heck, Jake's worst NHL season is still above Wilson's best so far (although admittedly I doubt that'll last ). And Philly desperately needed a playmaking winger, not a budding power forward - they already have JvR.

Wilson doesn't fill a need there, and so wouldn't have worked as the centerpiece IMO. I'm still convinced the only way Carter would have been a Pred would have been if Rinne was offered before Holmgren started talking to Phoenix.
Voracek's best season total of goals is equal to Wilson's .... with one more NHL season. Where they've differed so far is in assists with Voracek holding a definite advantage there. The #8 overall pick was the deciding factor here with Philly on record as wanting forwards, not defensive prospects. Yes, we have Ellis, Ekholm, Josi, Blum, and others but that does nothing when the potential trading partner is looking for NHL ready forwards and near ready forward prospects.

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