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Flyers talking to Predators to move salary

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Old
09-30-2011, 02:22 PM
  #276
ONTHEFLYGUY
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Betts needs to go

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09-30-2011, 02:29 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banger View Post
and Z is certainly in the mix. Rinaldo is waiver exempt whereas Nodl is not so you can keep Nodl as forward 13 and if Zac does falter or is a defensive liability you can send him down and pop Nodl in that spot.

I really haven't noticed him being pushed around or be a defensive liability though. I know there a several guys on here that have an axe to grind with him but I didn't have any opinion whatsoever on the kid. I've watched objectively (IMO) and I've really liked what I've seen. Ya, he may slow down or not be able to keep up with the pace all year but let him fail first and make you make that decision. From what I've seen and heard from the organization everyone seems to be very impressed with how he's changed his game, changed his body and has grown as a player in a short time.
I've got no real problem with him, I just think he has a little ways to go. Time will tell.

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09-30-2011, 02:38 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banger View Post
and Z is certainly in the mix. Rinaldo is waiver exempt whereas Nodl is not so you can keep Nodl as forward 13 and if Zac does falter or is a defensive liability you can send him down and pop Nodl in that spot.

I really haven't noticed him being pushed around or be a defensive liability though. I know there a several guys on here that have an axe to grind with him but I didn't have any opinion whatsoever on the kid. I've watched objectively (IMO) and I've really liked what I've seen. Ya, he may slow down or not be able to keep up with the pace all year but let him fail first and make you make that decision. From what I've seen and heard from the organization everyone seems to be very impressed with how he's changed his game, changed his body and has grown as a player in a short time.
See the thing is, some of us have watched him objectively either in juniors or AHL. We have seen him probably alot more than most on the Flyers board. It is just alittle harder for us to like the guy when we know what his hockey past is like and have seen him play more than a few preseason games. Alot of us have gone over this a few times. Just because management likes him, doesnt really mean anything. Management likes Jody Shelly. We all know how that is going.

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09-30-2011, 03:10 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
See the thing is, some of us have watched him objectively either in juniors or AHL. We have seen him probably alot more than most on the Flyers board. It is just alittle harder for us to like the guy when we know what his hockey past is like and have seen him play more than a few preseason games. Alot of us have gone over this a few times. Just because management likes him, doesnt really mean anything. Management likes Jody Shelly. We all know how that is going.
Actually it's management's opinion, not ours, that really counts. I think/hope the Shelley experiment ends as well. Terrible signing.

I can understand having the history that it's harder to divorce it from the current reality but players change sometimes...maybe it will stick, maybe it won't but he seems to be doing/saying all the right things. I like that the kid is driven, he wants to be here and will do what it takes to get here and stay here. He's got a great desire that has risen essentially a nobody through their system in quick time and now is on the verge of an NHL spot at 21. That's quite a feat for a player like him.

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09-30-2011, 03:25 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I know its preseason but I thought Betts played well so far...
I agree we you on this. Blair is one of our better PK'ers. Someone else is really going to have to show the brass they can do his job before they let him go.

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09-30-2011, 03:39 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
how good is he defensively though? he's not a shut down guy because he can't skate. He can play positionally well on the PK but that's about it. Hell he was a -3 last year. I haven't been a Betts hater but I think a lot of people are seeing thinking that we have the Betts of 2 years ago with Lappy. He's not that guy.

Ya, his cap hit is nice but I'd rather have Harry Z-Talbot-Rinaldo for a price less than Shelley-Betts-Nodl and they'd be a hell of a lot more fun and impactful. They'd be hitting bodies up and down the ice, very fast and 3 good agitators that no one would want to play against.
Betts is far more valuable and effective as a player than you are giving him credit for.

He's got good size, he's strong, he can skate too. He's been a key piece of the team since he's been here - and I firmly believe he will be here again this year.

There was a lot of talk about culture change, being professional on and off the ice, etc. Betts personifies what they are looking for in a hungry, committed player.

I'm happy to see him replaced by someone like Holmstrom next year, but I think he'll be starting as 4C in the opener.

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09-30-2011, 03:58 PM
  #282
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The problem with kicking Betts to the curb means you will likely be relying on multiple rookies in key positions (barring any other moves made in trade or something). If you take Betts out of that 4C PK role, who is on the fourth line and PK?

I'm assuming Read and Schenn will be in the top 9. So the fourth line would be what, Harry Z/Rinaldo-Talbot-Nodl? So now not only are you having two rookies in the top 9, but you also have one on the fourth line. Then we look at the PK. You're guess is as good as mine in what it would be without Betts...

Giroux-Talbot?
Schenn-Simmonds/Nodl/Read?

I just don't know if I want to be relying so heavily on rookies. This is without even considering Couturier being on the team. I know Schenn and Couturier have high ceilings, but Read, Harry Z, and Rinaldo aren't in that league. They might turn out to be perfectly suited for the roles they would be in if Betts is cut loose, but they also might crash and burn come December. Betts is cheaper (I think) and just as good as any of the other options currently on our team to be a solid 4th line center and PK guy. With Betts you know exactly what you are getting. With whomever else they throw out there in his place (on top of the multiple other rookies already looking like they are in the lineup) its a crapshoot. Betts should not be going anywhere. A fourth line of Talbot-Betts-Nodl looks a lot better to me than any alternative they come up with.

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09-30-2011, 04:36 PM
  #283
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I honestly think that Schenn might be alittle more hurt than what we think. That being said, come tomorrow he could play and I can be totally wrong. I do think that they want to keep Couturier up. Couturier is playing on the pk lately and getting some good time on there. The season starts and Schenn is hurt, Couturier is undoubtedly our 3rd line C. Now if Schenn is back, I dont think they want to send Schenn to the AHL, so Schenn will be out 3rd line C. Maybe they put Couturier on the 4th line, on wing or center and switch off faceoffs and such with Betts. This all really depends on if Nodl, JVR, and Schenn are ready to play or are hurt. I think Nodl will be the 12 or 13th forward start the season if healthy. I cant see them sending him down. Lavy really likes him. JVR has a top 6 spot, and Read looks like a sure thing on the 3rd line.

IF Schenn is healthy top 9 is:

JVR-Giroux-Jagr
Hartnell-Briere-Voracek
Read-Schenn-Simmonds

Now the bottom 3 gets tricky.

Rinaldo/Harry Z/Nodl/Couturier-Betts/Couturier-Talbot

Thats how I see it.


EDIT: Also what I would like to see is Couturier's faceoff stats. From my point of view (no stats to back it up) Couturier seems to be shredding in the faceoff circle. As a 18 yr old, he is taking on vet centers and winning faceoffs.

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09-30-2011, 04:37 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONTHEFLYGUY View Post
Betts needs to go
agreed, he offers nothing at this point.

I like a 4th line of Nodl-talbot-harry z

3 players with speed and grit, and all have decent defensive ability and could all chip in on the penalty kill. Can switch out harry z with rinaldo depending on certain factors.

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09-30-2011, 04:42 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
agreed, he offers nothing at this point.

I like a 4th line of Nodl-talbot-harry z

3 players with speed and grit, and all have decent defensive ability and could all chip in on the penalty kill. Can switch out harry z with rinaldo depending on certain factors.
Talbot isnt a center so... dont know why people are putting him there. He won 48% of the faceoffs last season.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll


Only reason Talbot took faceoffs last season was cause Crosby and Malkin were hurt. The year before he took 165 faceoffs. Thats almost as much as Ville Leino taking faceoffs for us.


EDIT: Betts took 817 faceoffs winning 50.3%. Talbot took 874 faceoffs winning 48.6%


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09-30-2011, 04:50 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Talbot isnt a center so... dont know why people are putting him there. He won 48% of the faceoffs last season.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll


Only reason Talbot took faceoffs last season was cause Crosby and Malkin were hurt. The year before he took 165 faceoffs. Thats almost as much as Ville Leino taking faceoffs for us.


EDIT: Betts took 817 faceoffs winning 50.3%. Talbot took 874 faceoffs winning 48.6%
Put talbot there full time and I bet he does just as well as betts would in the faceoff circle.

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09-30-2011, 04:52 PM
  #287
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So apparently Radulov has quite a situation brewing over in Russia. He may be back to the NHL.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp13772

I'm not sure of the contract situation with Nashville, but what would he cost at this point? I wouldn't mind moving Hartnell+ if he was guaranteed to be returning to play...

Thoughts?

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09-30-2011, 04:58 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
So apparently Radulov has quite a situation brewing over in Russia. He may be back to the NHL.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp13772

I'm not sure of the contract situation with Nashville, but what would he cost at this point? I wouldn't mind moving Hartnell+ if he was guaranteed to be returning to play...

Thoughts?
I'd pass. I wouldn't trade the trainer for him.

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09-30-2011, 05:11 PM
  #289
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Radulov is immensely talented, there's no denying that. He appears to be quite troubling to have around your team though.

That whole part with him requesting a trade over in Russia is just that though, if I've understood this correctly, he wants a trade within the KHL. He's not looking to go back to the NHL where he would still have to play through a year on his entry-level contract I believe.

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09-30-2011, 05:12 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Put talbot there full time and I bet he does just as well as betts would in the faceoff circle.

I would easily take that bet. Talbot's BEST faceoff season doesnt beat Bett's worst. Unless Talbot did a complete 180 from his past 6 seasons of faceoffs, there is 0 evidence Talbot even gets close. There is a reason why the Pens moved Talbot to wing.

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09-30-2011, 05:16 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I would easily take that bet. Talbot's BEST faceoff season doesnt beat Bett's worst. Unless Talbot did a complete 180 from his past 6 seasons of faceoffs, there is 0 evidence Talbot even gets close. There is a reason why the Pens moved Talbot to wing.

They moved Talbot to wing because they have Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. Not because Talbot is a poor faceoff guy.

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09-30-2011, 05:19 PM
  #292
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I'm not sure of the contract situation with Nashville, but what would he cost at this point? I wouldn't mind moving Hartnell+ if he was guaranteed to be returning to play...

Thoughts?
If Radulov was willing to finish the ELC, he would be playing top-line minutes in Nashville. I can't imagine they would trade him if they thought he would actually come back--and certainly wouldn't accept "just Hartnell" as the return.

And, from our side, I don't think you could trade any asset of value for less than an iron-clad guarantee that he would come back.

It's a bad situation--from the NHL's perspective at least--and it is really hard to find a path forward. Actually, I'm surprised that this hasn't happened more with talented (but not superstar) Russian players.

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09-30-2011, 05:20 PM
  #293
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They moved Talbot to wing because they have Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. Not because Talbot is a poor faceoff guy.
You sure about that one? Well yea, with those 3 centers, obviously he would be put to wing. BUT I think his terrible % was also a factor.

10/11: 48.6%
09/10: 41.2%
08/09: 51.1%
07/08: 45%
06/07: 44.4%
05/06: 42.9%


So yea, other than 08/09, he has been horrendous. But hey, if you guys want a mid 40s % faceoff guy taking defense draws and such (that Betts does) more power to ya.

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09-30-2011, 05:24 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
You sure about that one? Well yea, with those 3 centers, obviously he would be put to wing. BUT I think his terrible % was also a factor.

10/11: 48.6%
09/10: 41.2%
08/09: 51.1%
07/08: 45%
06/07: 44.4%
05/06: 42.9%


So yea, other than 08/09, he has been horrendous. But hey, if you guys want a mid 40s % faceoff guy taking defense draws and such (that Betts does) more power to ya.
Betts is around a 50% guy on faceoffs. He's no stud there either. You have to look at all the factors. Sometimes when your not taking a lot of faceoffs, it's hard to get on a role with it. Talbot is capable of taking faceoffs

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09-30-2011, 05:26 PM
  #295
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If Radulov was willing to finish the ELC, he would be playing top-line minutes in Nashville. I can't imagine they would trade him if they thought he would actually come back--and certainly wouldn't accept "just Hartnell" as the return.
That's why there's a "+" next to Hartnell, declaring that we'd need to add
And, from our side, I don't think you could trade any asset of value for less than an iron-clad guarantee that he would come back.
Obviously not, but we could load the deal up with conditional picks for each side
It's a bad situation--from the NHL's perspective at least--and it is really hard to find a path forward. Actually, I'm surprised that this hasn't happened more with talented (but not superstar) Russian players.
Answers in italics.

I have no idea what NSH would be willing to give him up for. They don't know if Radulov will ever return to play for them, why not get SOMETHING for him and dump his issues off on another team? The only thing that'd drive up his value is his skill (again, obviously), but with his attitude, he could be another Zherdev. All teams need to decide that when they place value in the trade.

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09-30-2011, 05:34 PM
  #296
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Add another one onto the "we need to keep Betts" train. It seems like people don't realize how important he is to that PK. When you lose Powe, Carter, Richards, Versteeg, and essentially Laperriere, you can't lose Betts, the PK will absolutely suck. Talbot can't replace everybody.

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09-30-2011, 05:35 PM
  #297
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Both Talbot and Betts are decent in the faceoff circle. Nothing great about them, but they are certainly not atrocious.

I'd like to have them both on the team, I think they will be our first pk pair that we put out there, and having two guys that can take a faceoff is really good on the pk. Plus they both are decent pkers in general...

Having versatility is a good thing, as well. Usually at least. Not saying that it's been the case in this particular discussion, but sometimes on here it's discussed as if it's a problem when we have a multitude of choices.

Honestly, I'm not Betts' biggest fan, but until the young guns really show that he's been made redundant. He stays. The same goes for Nödl, who I care even less about. I still haven't seen enough from guys like Zolnierczyk or Rinaldo to warrant waiving Nödl though.

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09-30-2011, 05:35 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Betts is around a 50% guy on faceoffs. He's no stud there either. You have to look at all the factors. Sometimes when your not taking a lot of faceoffs, it's hard to get on a role with it. Talbot is capable of taking faceoffs
50% compared to 45% is a HUGE difference, especially the more you take, the higher chance you have of lowering you % (or if your good raising it).

Faceoffs taken (Talbot has taken alot more than I thought due to pk)

Talbot last 6 years: 3470 taken 45.5% won
Betts last 6 years: 5290 taken 51.1% won

Betts had 1 season over 1000 faceoffs taken. That being said, I dont know why we are arguing about it. Betts is a sure thing to play 4th line center, while Talbot hasnt played center at all this season. Bett's has taken more faceoffs and has a significantly higher win percentage.

All I know is, if we are in the defense zone, and we need to win a faceoff, Talbot better be the last guy taking it. History has shown he has not been good.


Last edited by sa cyred: 09-30-2011 at 05:45 PM.
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09-30-2011, 05:43 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Answers in italics.

I have no idea what NSH would be willing to give him up for. They don't know if Radulov will ever return to play for them, why not get SOMETHING for him and dump his issues off on another team? The only thing that'd drive up his value is his skill (again, obviously), but with his attitude, he could be another Zherdev. All teams need to decide that when they place value in the trade.
Fair enough--I did miss the "+."

I guess what I'm suggesting is, if Nashville believes Radulov will come back over, they would want far more than the Flyers would likely be willing to give up for him (+Schenn? a 1st? I'm not sure); they would accept much less in the interim, but that move makes no sense for the Flyers.

The way that this team is currently constructed, I don't really think they could give up a plus asset on the chance Radulov would come back--at which point he's only under control for a few years anyway, right? He's 25, isn't he? So one year @ ELC + 1 year RFA (unless there is some provision in the CBA that overrides the normal 27 years old / 7 years of service rule).

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09-30-2011, 05:54 PM
  #300
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50% compared to 45% is a HUGE difference, especially the more you take, the higher chance you have of lowering you % (or if your good raising it).

Faceoffs taken (Talbot has taken alot more than I thought due to pk)

Talbot last 6 years: 3470 taken 45.5% won
Betts last 6 years: 5290 taken 51.1% won

Betts had 1 season over 1000 faceoffs taken. That being said, I dont know why we are arguing about it. Betts is a sure thing to play 4th line center, while Talbot hasnt played center at all this season. Bett's has taken more faceoffs and has a significantly higher win percentage.

All I know is, if we are in the defense zone, and we need to win a faceoff, Talbot better be the last guy taking it. History has shown he has not been good.
It can't be looked at that way. Teams break it down. They look at shorthanded faceoffs, they look at right side versus left side, etc. Talbot is just as capable of winning a draw as Betts is. Talbot is also capable of playing Center.
I see Talbot as being brought in to replace what they had in Lappariere. Would Talbots be my go to guy to win a key defensive zone draw? No. But neither would Betts. Truth is that the Flyers don't have that guy. And when your looking at guys who are pretty well equal there, it's a crapshoot.

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