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Old
10-02-2011, 02:01 PM
  #301
Mike8
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Your analogy makes the assumption that it affects productivity. It doesn't in the NHL. That's the disconnect.

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10-02-2011, 02:06 PM
  #302
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Here, I have a proposal:

Let's look at all cheapshots from every game this season. The season starts this coming week, so we can handle the entire year. We'll have a thread where we note (in the OP) every cheapshot, every suspension, and every injury that is the result of a cheapshot. We'll note the team making the cheapshot, and the team receiving the cheapshot, noting any goons/fighters, and whether any fights took place during the game (if we feel this information would be necessary). We'll also note the score, just for kicks.

Ultimately, the purpose of gaining team toughness is to:

1. Deter cheapshots
2. Avoid intimidation that may affect productivity

So by tracking all of this across the league, we may come to have some stats to back the pro or con argument. We'll see some correlation.

Instead of this perpetual back-and-forth which, as we've seen, is terribly unproductive, we'll actually be working together to collect some stronger sense of what's going on in the NHL.

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10-02-2011, 02:08 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Sorry bro I was too caught up in your comparison of enforcers to seatbelts and traffic lights. Your terrible analogy inspired mine
Hey I'll concede mine wasn't much better, but I knew when to let it go. You were telling people you were gonna run them over for jaywalking. A little over the top, no?

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10-02-2011, 02:09 PM
  #304
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Hey I'll concede mine wasn't much better, but I knew when to let it go. You were telling people you were gonna run them over for jaywalking. A little over the top, no?
To be honest I was trolling in that thread (i meant the analogy though) for the first half until I got into a debate with that robert guy.

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10-02-2011, 02:11 PM
  #305
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How the hell do you even want that evidence you're looking for? "oh look, watch as Niel in the 2nd period is playing hockey and wont intimidate while our goon is on the bench...."

do you have any idea how retarded that is?

2 other things...

1) if 99% of people tell you thar jumping off the bridge is a bad but you don't, shouldn't that mean something? (that's just to counter your ridiculous statement atthe beginning o your post)

And 2) why am I the sheep? You're the one that's pro management at all costs, that gives excuses for everything that happens. It's the complete opposite, you're the sheep! I'm the one saying "hey,we're not perfect, we have a need on this team, let's go get it."

If you think I'm going to let some pacifists call me delusional when u saw more the once our star players going back to the bench completely discouraged with their heads between their tales because they had to defend themselves... This board is going to be a lot of fun in the next months..
Actually, you just proved his point, just because a majority acts or thinks a certain way, it does not make them right.
Just because 29 teams have goons does not mean they are key or important. You obviously feel they are, and that is okay, the problem starts when people ask you to prove it, to which you respond that you cant.

Figting does not prevent anything. Some may think it prevents things from worsening, but there is no way to prove that.
In the other hand, we can see playwrs get cheap shotted despite having a goon, sometimes more than one, on the roster. The logical conclusion would obviously be that it isnt preventive.

Now, the intimidation factor. That is also very mythical seeing how there will never be an enforcer on the ice for the whole game. So anyintimidation he might bring will disappear as soon as he's off the ice. Lucic never seemed intimidated by BGL despite never wanting to figth him. You talk of instances where our players walked to the bench with their heads down, but they won the game, which is more important.
Look at every game, for every team, players tend to have theirheads down all the time when skating to the bench. Youjust have your own beliefs and views. Throug youreyes, you see intimidation. I dont see any of that.

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Old
10-02-2011, 02:12 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Here, I have a proposal:

Let's look at all cheapshots from every game this season. The season starts this coming week, so we can handle the entire year. We'll have a thread where we note (in the OP) every cheapshot, every suspension, and every injury that is the result of a cheapshot. We'll note the team making the cheapshot, and the team receiving the cheapshot, noting any goons/fighters, and whether any fights took place during the game (if we feel this information would be necessary). We'll also note the score, just for kicks.

Ultimately, the purpose of gaining team toughness is to:

1. Deter cheapshots
2. Avoid intimidation that may affect productivity

So by tracking all of this across the league, we may come to have some stats to back the pro or con argument. We'll see some correlation.

Instead of this perpetual back-and-forth which, as we've seen, is terribly unproductive, we'll actually be working together to collect some stronger sense of what's going on in the NHL.
Sounds good mike8, I'd love for something like this to occur, but I'm not sure you'll be convinced that having a tougher team would free up space for pleks, cammy, ect and the data we will collect will be difficult to prove either way, but I'll join in anyways. I feel last nights game was beginning to look like the B's vs habs game last year where boston manhandled our players just because they could, it never exploded to that level, but the similarities were there. We won the game, but it's gotta be disheartening for guys like AK to be punched in the face for nothing at all.

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10-02-2011, 02:17 PM
  #307
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The reason we argue is that there are two different concepts here.

- Physical play (strong hits, finishing checks in a legal manner, energy, winning the 1 on 1 battles, getting the opponent to be intimidated and avoid contact to a).

- Cheapshots - stuff intended to harm someone out of the game.

Now - you have two other options: Enforcers vs Team Toughness.

Things we should all agree on:

- Physical play is needed. Physical play wins games, even at the Olympics. Physical play is enjoyable to watch.

- Cheapshots are evil. They serve no purpose. They limit or end careers. While they cause fear and (somehow) rivalries, noone wants them to stay.

- Team toughness is good for improving your team's physical play.

The topics to be discussed:

- Do enforcers actually increase physical play ? can be debated.

- Do enforcers prevent cheapshots ? IMO not so far.

- Does physical play from your team attract cheap shots against your team ? Since the opponent is irritated and finds no other way to answer ? Interesting issue considering the Bruins history.

- Does severe punishment against illegal hits reduce cheapshots ? hopefully - that's the whole point they're doing.

- Does severe punishment against illegal hits lower the physicality of the play ? No proof for that but that's the main fear of some fans and even GMs.

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10-02-2011, 02:18 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
To be honest I was trolling in that thread (i meant the analogy though) for the first half until I got into a debate with that robert guy.
Fair enough, any word on Malone yet? Has a hearing been scheduled. I agree with you on the end result here, you said 3-5 games. I think 2-3 games, but it will largely depend on whether shanny thinks Campoli lunged at the last minute to make it unavoidable. It would seem to me that Malone seen Campoli vulnerable before the lunge, but we'll wait and see, I won't be outraged either way.

I think the biggest factors here are:

1: Malone was reckless all night
2: The score was out of reach
3: The game was over for all intensive purposes
4: Primary contact was with the head
5: Whether or not Malone has been suspended for similar play in the past (not sure either way here)

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10-02-2011, 02:18 PM
  #309
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Then how do you prevent the cheapshots. This is where the problem lies. So we get the tough guys and then what? That's the problem. Do we all feel better because we had a guy who was able to fight after the fact. It just seems useless. Having Moen and White is sufficient enough. I don't think we need to go chasing tough guys around the league for the sake of because what more will they bring than what we already have...who do you replace them with. The only guys I would replace if they are significant replacement for what we already have, like when I didn't mind O'brien in the summer. But getting worse players to replace better ones for the sake of fighting is useless.

All in all the security feeling is much different from the protective and prevenative one which I don't agree happens because have many instances where it doesn.t
Andy, you are a very smart hockey person and a very smart person I am sure in other aspects.

Think of it this way.......

Having a police force in your city will not eliminate 100% of the crime, including the violent crimes like murder.

However, having a police force in your city will eliminate a lot of the crimes. And when violent crime does happen, as it will, the police will be there to bring them to justice after the fact.

Hockey and real life are similar in one facet. There is no such thing as 100% absolutism. It does not exist. There are only such things as truisms.

Having a 4th line of guys who can fight along with a couple of tough defensemen will not stop players on their teams from random violent acts on the ice. Hockey is a fast paced and physical game. No absolute guarantee.

However, when almost every other team in the NHL has an enforcer/tough guy/protector etc (whatever term you want to use), this means that those GM's believe in the value of having such player(s) on the roster while Montreal does not. That is a true fact.

See the difference between absolutism and truism that causes a lot of us Canadiens' fans such frustration toward management?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirine View Post
If a Malone comes to you and wants to fight, you take a punch and laugh in his face with your gloves still on. He's out for 7 mins. You score twice on the PP. Boom.
And you become a punk that no one respects.

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Originally Posted by googlymoogly View Post


The refs were terrible on those plays, you can see Malone escalating more and more because they did not penalize him for anything.
And honestly, do you think that the refs will suddenly step up to the plate and become great?

We saw pathetic reffing last year and we will see pathetic reffing this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Your analogy makes the assumption that it affects productivity. It doesn't in the NHL. That's the disconnect.
And you have never been more wrong.

What was one of the main gripes about Halak? He wasnt very big and you could rattle him by running into him. Other teams did it all the time and Halak would let in a few softies because of it.

Do you think that professional athletes are robots? They are human just like you and I. They can be intimidated. They can be intimidators.

You should start watching games more closely instead of spending so much time typing on GDTs.


Last edited by Mike8: 10-02-2011 at 02:32 PM. Reason: merge
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Old
10-02-2011, 02:31 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And you have never been more wrong.
Oh, okay then. Well, that was an intellectual exchange.

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10-02-2011, 02:36 PM
  #311
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Oh, okay then. Well, that was an intellectual exchange.
As you dismiss and ignore what I said about Halak getting rattled by contact in the crease.

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10-02-2011, 02:39 PM
  #312
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Here we go again.

29 other NHL team are beefing up their line up. But, of course, only Gauthier is right !

Gauthier must be way ahead of his time. That's the type of team that's gonna work fine in five years when regulations are tighter and better.

In the meantime, let's just send our actual players to the slaughterhouse.

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10-02-2011, 02:43 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Sounds good mike8, I'd love for something like this to occur, but I'm not sure you'll be convinced that having a tougher team would free up space for pleks, cammy, ect and the data we will collect will be difficult to prove either way, but I'll join in anyways. I feel last nights game was beginning to look like the B's vs habs game last year where boston manhandled our players just because they could, it never exploded to that level, but the similarities were there. We won the game, but it's gotta be disheartening for guys like AK to be punched in the face for nothing at all.
So let's set out the parameters for this. To start with, do you agree with my two points on why team toughness is allegedly important?

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As you dismiss and ignore what I said about Halak getting rattled by contact in the crease.
Whenever someone makes the assertion that another poster is flat-out wrong, or tells me that I ought to watch games closely, I tend to dismiss them and the discussion altogether. Besides which, I don't find that you're ever interested in finding common ground; you make reactionary statements about Martin's ineptitude, and often obfuscate points/discussions. That's just not for me. habsjunkie2, for example, shares your sentiments on this but seems far more inclined to work toward understanding which side is closer to reality.

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10-02-2011, 02:45 PM
  #314
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Who are the enforcers on the Red Wings?

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10-02-2011, 02:55 PM
  #315
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Mike8, my biggest belief is it provides confidence and security to the more skillful players and allows them to focus on scoring goals, not retaliating or mucking it up with other teams dirt bags. I also feel like Teemu stated it allows them to play their game, whether it deters, I think it does in fact deter some, how much is any ones guess.

I'd also like to track how many times players are attacked like AK was last night and attempt to determine if we are on the receiving end more often than not. We also need to determine what is considered a cheap shot or play outside of a normal legal hockey. Do we count running price? Do we count the subtle jabs the refs don't see, or are we just counting blatant attempts to injure, because I don't think an enforcer prevents those quick, last second reactionary hockey plays.

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10-02-2011, 03:05 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Mike8, my biggest belief is it provides confidence and security to the more skillful players and allows them to focus on scoring goals, not retaliating or mucking it up with other teams dirt bags. I also feel like Teemu stated it allows them to play their game, whether it deters, I think it does in fact deter some, how much is any ones guess.

I'd also like to track how many times players are attacked like AK was last night and attempt to determine if we are on the receiving end more often than not. We also need to determine what is considered a cheap shot or play outside of a normal legal hockey. Do we count running price? Do we count the subtle jabs the refs don't see, or are we just counting blatant attempts to injure, because I don't think an enforcer prevents those quick, last second reactionary hockey plays.
I don't think we can measure 'intimidation' that easily, in the way that you described earlier in this thread. The biggest thing we can do is measure deterrence of cheapshots (easy enough to measure), and by looking at scores in games where cheapshots occurred, I suppose we can measure intimidation there ... but it's deeply flawed.

None of those subtle aspects of the game are realistic to measure, since we're not watching all of the other games.

The only way to track the subtleties you're referring to is through Montreal games exclusively: games where they're the recipients of some form of attempt-to-intimidate by the opposition, and Montreal's record in such games. That's not much of a sample size to make any real determination, but at least we'd see whether it adversely affects Montreal's ability to win a game.

So, if we go that route, we do two things this season:

1) Track suspensions/cheapshots/injuries-as-a-result-of-cheapshots league-wide, taking into account what I posted originally (noting the teams involved; fights if any; goons on the roster)

2) Track Montreal's record in games where some overt methods of intimidation are employed by the opposition (those methods of intimidation noted by you)

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10-02-2011, 03:08 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I don't think we can measure 'intimidation' that easily, in the way that you described earlier in this thread. The biggest thing we can do is measure deterrence of cheapshots (easy enough to measure), and by looking at scores in games where cheapshots occurred, I suppose we can measure intimidation there ... but it's deeply flawed.

None of those subtle aspects of the game are realistic to measure, since we're not watching all of the other games.

The only way to track the subtleties you're referring to is through Montreal games exclusively: games where they're the recipients of some form of attempt-to-intimidate by the opposition, and Montreal's record in such games. That's not much of a sample size to make any real determination, but at least we'd see whether it adversely affects Montreal's ability to win a game.

So, if we go that route, we do two things this season:

1) Track suspensions/cheapshots/injuries-as-a-result-of-cheapshots league-wide, taking into account what I posted originally (noting the teams involved; fights if any; goons on the roster)

2) Track Montreal's record in games where some overt methods of intimidation are employed by the opposition (those methods of intimidation noted by you)
agreed

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10-02-2011, 03:17 PM
  #318
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Okay, so I'm going to pass it by the mods to have an all-purposes toughness thread for the season.

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10-02-2011, 04:05 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Who are the enforcers on the Red Wings?
Mike Commodore, Garnett Exelby and a couple of big guys able to take care of themselves. And it's the only team in the western conference to have so few fighters

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10-02-2011, 04:20 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Here we go again.

29 other NHL team are beefing up their line up. But, of course, only Gauthier is right !

Gauthier must be way ahead of his time. That's the type of team that's gonna work fine in five years when regulations are tighter and better.

In the meantime, let's just send our actual players to the slaughterhouse.
Do you really think this sort of hysterical hyperbole does anything?

Replacing Hamrlik and Pouliot with Yemelin and Cole and resigning White isn't adding strength? Why do you think they drafted Tinordi?

Want to give me an example about how every team but the Habs is filled to the brim with fighters?

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10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Here, I have a proposal:

Let's look at all cheapshots from every game this season. The season starts this coming week, so we can handle the entire year. We'll have a thread where we note (in the OP) every cheapshot, every suspension, and every injury that is the result of a cheapshot. We'll note the team making the cheapshot, and the team receiving the cheapshot, noting any goons/fighters, and whether any fights took place during the game (if we feel this information would be necessary). We'll also note the score, just for kicks.

Ultimately, the purpose of gaining team toughness is to:

1. Deter cheapshots
2. Avoid intimidation that may affect productivity

So by tracking all of this across the league, we may come to have some stats to back the pro or con argument. We'll see some correlation.

Instead of this perpetual back-and-forth which, as we've seen, is terribly unproductive, we'll actually be working together to collect some stronger sense of what's going on in the NHL.
Excellent idea.

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10-02-2011, 04:26 PM
  #322
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I like Mike8's idea cause I already know what it's going to prove

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10-02-2011, 04:31 PM
  #323
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Our exercise is more for fun, I don't expect it to prove a whole lot, but I am willing to do it anyways, even if it's designed to make my view seem less relevant, which I don't think it will or can since I've stated cheap shots aren't preventable by enforcers, but hey, don't let the facts get in way of a good debate.


Last edited by Mike8: 10-02-2011 at 04:47 PM.
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10-02-2011, 04:47 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Our exercise is more for fun, I don't expect it to prove a whole lot, but I am willing to do it anyways, even if it's designed to make my view seem less relevant, which I don't think it will or can since I've stated cheap shots aren't preventable by enforcers, but hey, don't let the facts get in way of a good debate.
Well, I'm not intending to design it to prove anything in particular, actually. I'd be more than happy to have it prove that team toughness does, in fact, matter. (This is because from a personal standpoint, I'm a big fan of grit)

How do you think it's designed to prove 'my side' right? (I'd like to rectify that, if it is the case)

Also, it will give us more understanding of whether Montreal does get intimidated.

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10-02-2011, 04:58 PM
  #325
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Well, I'm not intending to design it to prove anything in particular, actually. I'd be more than happy to have it prove that team toughness does, in fact, matter. (This is because from a personal standpoint, I'm a big fan of grit)

How do you think it's designed to prove 'my side' right? (I'd like to rectify that, if it is the case)

Also, it will give us more understanding of whether Montreal does get intimidated.
I said even if it is, some people seem worried about proving they are right and hanging on to old grudges rather than looking at things objectively, but I don't accuse you of that. i think the parameters are fine, was referring to neo's preconceived notion that he already knows the answer, i'm sure he must of conducted a similar study and will post his findings here.

I am more interested in the the habs as well, this might not be able to give us a conclusive look either way, but I believe it to be a valuable exercise even if it suggests I'm wrong. Whether it can prove either sides position conclusively isn't really the reason I want to do this, I think it will be a fun thing to go over and enjoy discussions with people like yourself. I have no problem with differing opinions, I also don't mind admitting I was out to lunch, see price vs halak. lol.

I also wouldn't be opposed to bringing in a few more objective posters to help make things easier, but I would prefer to lock the thread from those who seemingly already know the results, to me, they can't look at this objectively.

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