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Old
10-02-2011, 05:38 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
If i remember correctly, Laraque wasn't in the lineup for that game.
Laraque was in his stupid "fighter's code" mode then though and would only fight a willingly guy. Nobody was stupid enough to agree to fight him so he was a waste of space. You need a guy that just goes at it, the way Downie did on Kostitsyn, the way Malone wanted all game long...

I miss Komisarek.

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10-02-2011, 05:39 PM
  #327
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stay as we are. we'll be the team with the least amount of suspended players at the end of the season.

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10-02-2011, 05:43 PM
  #328
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Who are the enforcers on the Red Wings?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5120uo26RCA

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Old
10-02-2011, 05:45 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Here, I have a proposal:

Let's look at all cheapshots from every game this season. The season starts this coming week, so we can handle the entire year. We'll have a thread where we note (in the OP) every cheapshot, every suspension, and every injury that is the result of a cheapshot. We'll note the team making the cheapshot, and the team receiving the cheapshot, noting any goons/fighters, and whether any fights took place during the game (if we feel this information would be necessary). We'll also note the score, just for kicks.

Ultimately, the purpose of gaining team toughness is to:

1. Deter cheapshots
2. Avoid intimidation that may affect productivity

So by tracking all of this across the league, we may come to have some stats to back the pro or con argument. We'll see some correlation.

Instead of this perpetual back-and-forth which, as we've seen, is terribly unproductive, we'll actually be working together to collect some stronger sense of what's going on in the NHL.
I think that would be a very interesting thread and a good season-long study! Lets do it!

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10-02-2011, 05:47 PM
  #330
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Exelby is an AHLer...

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Old
10-02-2011, 05:48 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Okay, so I'm going to pass it by the mods to have an all-purposes toughness thread for the season.
I'm really intrigued by the results. If you do that and take care of the tracking, I think i'll become a regular again just to follow that.

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Old
10-02-2011, 05:49 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Here, I have a proposal:

Let's look at all cheapshots from every game this season. The season starts this coming week, so we can handle the entire year. We'll have a thread where we note (in the OP) every cheapshot, every suspension, and every injury that is the result of a cheapshot. We'll note the team making the cheapshot, and the team receiving the cheapshot, noting any goons/fighters, and whether any fights took place during the game (if we feel this information would be necessary). We'll also note the score, just for kicks.

Ultimately, the purpose of gaining team toughness is to:

1. Deter cheapshots
2. Avoid intimidation that may affect productivity

So by tracking all of this across the league, we may come to have some stats to back the pro or con argument. We'll see some correlation.

Instead of this perpetual back-and-forth which, as we've seen, is terribly unproductive, we'll actually be working together to collect some stronger sense of what's going on in the NHL.




Mike, who are you going to recruit to interview every single player on the bench of all the teams?

You will have to rely on actual interviews because players do not have a sign that they hold up saying that "I am not going to run ________ (pick a player) because I know that their enforcer is going to kick my ass".

I see what you did there. Cute.

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Old
10-02-2011, 05:51 PM
  #333
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(Why can't I post youtube videos? What am I doing wrong??)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ZrsncF7e5QA


Last edited by Mike8: 10-02-2011 at 05:56 PM.
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Old
10-02-2011, 05:54 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
I'm really intrigued by the results. If you do that and take care of the tracking, I think i'll become a regular again just to follow that.
Sure. We'll start up a thread shortly. Please feel free to contribute. We'll need to hammer out the parameters a little more, and it'd be nice to have some measure of intimidation beyond our own eyes ...

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Mike, who are you going to recruit to interview every single player on the bench of all the teams?

You will have to rely on actual interviews because players do not have a sign that they hold up saying that "I am not going to run ________ (pick a player) because I know that their enforcer is going to kick my ass".

I see what you did there. Cute.
I don't think you understand this at all. Running players has nothing to do with this in the least, so I'd wager this has indeed gone over your head. The fact that individuals from both sides of the debate are interested in being productive, contributing members, and even lay out the parameters, rather than try to brush it off as you have is further evidence of my initial impression of you. As such, I see no need to continue this exercise in futility (i.e., a discussion with you).

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10-02-2011, 06:04 PM
  #335
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I don't think you understand this at all. Running players has nothing to do with this in the least, so I'd wager this has indeed gone over your head. The fact that individuals from both sides of the debate are interested in being productive, contributing members, and even lay out the parameters, rather than try to brush it off as you have is further evidence of my initial impression of you. As such, I see no need to continue this exercise in futility (i.e., a discussion with you).
My whole point of posting in this thread is about Montreal players getting run and abused without retribution. Yet you and several of the other posters like to twist the argument around and turn it into.......once again....head shots and cheap shots that result in injuries.

It is an exercise in futility because you cannot take a concrete measurement of a particular player's thoughts at any given time.

Can you tell me if Malone's actions were premeditated? At what time did he decide to elbow Campoli?

What was Downey thinking at the moment he decided to push one of our players into Price? Was he thinking that he intentionally did it to knock Price over or was he simply going after the defender?

Did Downey think about fighting Price? Did Kostitsyn think differently about the game he was playing after Downey dropped the gloves?

Do you know?

Good luck with your endeavor. You are embarking on something no one has done before. Trying to draw a conclusion about behavior without actually finding out what a person was thinking when they did or did not do something.

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Old
10-02-2011, 06:04 PM
  #336
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laraque was also just jelly of gill cause dude is still an NHLer. is he the most skilled? everyone knows he's not. does he nonetheless exploit his strength(s) and assets as far as he can, and adjust with his 'aging' physique to maintain a job? yes. did laraque do that? he had one skill which he refused to exploit. he didn't want to compromise his new found principles and made himself utterly useless. it was his own fault he was bought out, never to lace them up again. unless you count stars on ice..

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Old
10-02-2011, 06:09 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by HarlemsFinest View Post
laraque was also just jelly of gill cause dude is still an NHLer. is he the most skilled? everyone knows he's not. does he nonetheless exploit his strength(s) and assets as far as he can, and adjust with his 'aging' physique to maintain a job? yes. did laraque do that? he had one skill which he refused to exploit. he didn't want to compromise his new found principles and made himself utterly useless. it was his own fault he was bought out, never to lace them up again. unless you count stars on ice..
Total truth. His off-ice lifetyle destroyed his on-ice persona. It's a shame but it is what it is.

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Old
10-02-2011, 06:10 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
It is an exercise in futility because you cannot take a concrete measurement of a particular player's thoughts at any given time.
I don't care what players are thinking. I care about results. If you took the time to read things before criticising, then you'd realise our objective is to see about results first and foremost. Players' state of mind has no bearing on any of this.

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10-02-2011, 06:36 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I don't care what players are thinking. I care about results. If you took the time to read things before criticising, then you'd realise our objective is to see about results first and foremost. Players' state of mind has no bearing on any of this.

Are you serious?

What the hell do you think intimidation is? Intimidation is a state of mind. Deciding to run a player is a state of mind. Deciding not to run a player because he knows he will have to fight is a state of mind.

That's why I said what I did on my previous post regarding this as an exercise in futility........because there is no way to know what a player is thinking at any given moment.

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Old
10-02-2011, 06:39 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Are you serious?

What the hell do you think intimidation is? Intimidation is a state of mind. Deciding to run a player is a state of mind. Deciding not to run a player because he knows he will have to fight is a state of mind.

That's why I said what I did on my previous post regarding this as an exercise in futility........because there is no way to know what a player is thinking at any given moment.
I don't really understand how you're not understanding this, frankly. We're measuring results. In games where there is allegedly intimidation, we will measure--over the course of the season--what the Habs win-loss record is. This will tell us whether intimidation, even if it does occur, has any bearing on the end result. Because the end result matters. But I don't want to explain this to you anymore.

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Old
10-02-2011, 06:39 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Are you serious?

What the hell do you think intimidation is? Intimidation is a state of mind. Deciding to run a player is a state of mind. Deciding not to run a player because he knows he will have to fight is a state of mind.

That's why I said what I did on my previous post regarding this as an exercise in futility........because there is no way to know what a player is thinking at any given moment.
guess you dont know much about science then.

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10-02-2011, 06:41 PM
  #342
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Seems like we have a cognitivist vs. behaviourist fight on our hands.

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Old
10-02-2011, 06:48 PM
  #343
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looks like Campoli should be good to go on thursday. Any word as to whether Malone will have a hearing and/or suspension.

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Old
10-02-2011, 08:01 PM
  #344
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My whole point of posting in this thread is about Montreal players getting run and abused without retribution. Yet you and several of the other posters like to twist the argument around and turn it into.......once again....head shots and cheap shots that result in injuries.

It is an exercise in futility because you cannot take a concrete measurement of a particular player's thoughts at any given time.

Can you tell me if Malone's actions were premeditated? At what time did he decide to elbow Campoli?

What was Downey thinking at the moment he decided to push one of our players into Price? Was he thinking that he intentionally did it to knock Price over or was he simply going after the defender?

Did Downey think about fighting Price? Did Kostitsyn think differently about the game he was playing after Downey dropped the gloves?

Do you know?

Good luck with your endeavor. You are embarking on something no one has done before. Trying to draw a conclusion about behavior without actually finding out what a person was thinking when they did or did not do something.
I don't want to be "that guy", but it's spelled Downie.

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10-02-2011, 08:35 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
Seems like we have a cognitivist vs. behaviourist fight on our hands.
I'm on the behaviorist side on this one. Any good scientist will prefer measuring thoughts and emotions through behavioral observation than by questioning.

If a guy is angry - he will be more aggressive. If he is scared - he will avoid more.

However such a research would need a careful discussion on the basic hypothesis and independent and dependent variables.

As I understand it - there are several hypotheses possible - we need to clarify them.

- cheap shots intimidate the opponent
- clean physical play intimidate the opponent
- intimidation reduces productivity.
- enforcers and fights ....do what ?

Measuring intimidation with reliable indicators would be difficult. The number of hits done by the intimidated team before and after an incident ? Puck possession before and after ? 1 on 1 battles won ? Tricky one.

Anyway - I'll try to contribute to such a project.

To ECWHSWI - If you know of a reliable scientific way to know what a human being is thinking at a specific moment. I would be really happy (though part of my work would become obsolete).

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10-02-2011, 08:36 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
My whole point of posting in this thread is about Montreal players getting run and abused without retribution. Yet you and several of the other posters like to twist the argument around and turn it into.......once again....head shots and cheap shots that result in injuries.

It is an exercise in futility because you cannot take a concrete measurement of a particular player's thoughts at any given time.

Can you tell me if Malone's actions were premeditated? At what time did he decide to elbow Campoli?

What was Downey thinking at the moment he decided to push one of our players into Price? Was he thinking that he intentionally did it to knock Price over or was he simply going after the defender?

Did Downey think about fighting Price? Did Kostitsyn think differently about the game he was playing after Downey dropped the gloves?

Do you know?

Good luck with your endeavor. You are embarking on something no one has done before. Trying to draw a conclusion about behavior without actually finding out what a person was thinking when they did or did not do something.
With all due respect, it's the results that matter in the end, if win 50 games and get pushed around, will it really matter much? Not that I expect that to happen, but I think between mike and myself we can objectively value whether intimation may or may not have played a role in a specific game. I'd welcome your feedback on games you think we were bullied and lost partly because off that aspect. I think mike8 is more than capable of looking objectively at this with me. It won't be easy, but should lead to some interesting conversation if nothing else.

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10-02-2011, 08:53 PM
  #347
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You are embarking on something no one has done before. Trying to draw a conclusion about behavior without actually finding out what a person was thinking when they did or did not do something.
It's been done a lot actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

Behavior can be observed and quantified. The hard part is actually to try and draw a conclusion about thoughts and emotions without observing behaviors.

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10-02-2011, 09:03 PM
  #348
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Measuring intimidation with reliable indicators would be difficult. The number of hits done by the intimidated team before and after an incident ? Puck possession before and after ? 1 on 1 battles won ? Tricky one.

Anyway - I'll try to contribute to such a project.

To ECWHSWI - If you know of a reliable scientific way to know what a human being is thinking at a specific moment. I would be really happy (though part of my work would become obsolete).
I don't think you could measure intimidation unless the effects are so big that it can overcome statistical noise in the indicators you're trying to use. Like you said, it would be incredibly difficult. Puck possession already is subject to score effects, hits are subject to puck possession to a degree (you generally don't hit when you have the puck... Kovalev on Tucker being the main exception).

I think intimidation is something that can very well exist, but the effect is so small that you can't find anything but anecdotal, narrative-driven evidence of it. Much like "clutch" ability.

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10-02-2011, 09:18 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
Seems like we have a cognitivist vs. behaviourist fight on our hands.
Elaborate please? I'm too ignorant on this but it seems interesting!

My opinion: when *I* see a huge player on the field, I'm immediately wary of him.
My other opinion: these are professional players who have seen it and gone through it all and probably aren't afraid of getting hit. Ben Maxwell is though!

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Old
10-02-2011, 09:25 PM
  #350
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However such a research would need a careful discussion on the basic hypothesis and independent and dependent variables.

As I understand it - there are several hypotheses possible - we need to clarify them.

- cheap shots intimidate the opponent
- clean physical play intimidate the opponent
- intimidation reduces productivity.
- enforcers and fights ....do what ?

Measuring intimidation with reliable indicators would be difficult. The number of hits done by the intimidated team before and after an incident ? Puck possession before and after ? 1 on 1 battles won ? Tricky one.

Anyway - I'll try to contribute to such a project.
I concur. It is deeply flawed at the moment. It is important to clarify that we have two elements that we're examining here:

1) Track suspensions/cheapshots/injuries-as-a-result-of-cheapshots league-wide

2) Track Montreal's record in games where some overt methods of intimidation are employed by the opposition


On the first point, I'm actually curious to see whether teams that play with more team toughness are more susceptible to cheapshots/injury. I suspect such teams engage in tougher games on average and, consequently, such games will be played on the brink of dirty. Tensions are higher, and there will be an escalation of events to eventually having intent-to-injure or a cheapshot occur.

But the most important point of #1 is to see what correlation there is, if any, between having an enforcer/team toughness & receiving cheapshots.

I'd like clarification from habsjunkie2 and other on this, actually. I know habsjunkie2 doesn't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that enforcers provide a deterrence. However, it seemed to be commonly thought by the pro-enforcer or pro-team toughness crowd that in the game vs. TB, for example, that if Montreal had a tough team to answer to Malone, that the cheapshot to Campoli wouldn't have happened. That he wouldn't have gone running around all game. Is this not so? Is this not the basic argument for having a tough team?

...

On the second point, we can just as easily remove the word intimidation, replacing it with: teams that assert themselves physically. Montreal doesn't actually have to be intimidated, and that may be too controversial a word to use. Rather, the assert-themselves-physically may be more easy to gain consensus: we can agree that TB asserted themselves physically more than Montreal last night. We can then see that it had no bearing on Montreal's ability to perform and win the game. As such, Montreal was not physically intimidated.

Essentially, this could be a measure of Montreal's capacity to match up with teams that are physical. And that may be a far less controversial, but ultimately similar, way of describing 'intimidation.'

Thoughts?

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