Last thing I am going to say about this then I am putting it to bed for good. In my eyes and others, we wasted a value asset in Franson. If he was worth the risk of taking on lombardi and lombardi's contract of 3.5M, he was damn well worth a good offensive prospect. A prospect that we missed the opportunity to have. If it had been me, I would've waited to make the deal till later in the summer to see if lombardi improved and I would've had something immediately lined up to replace his salary. It cannot be understated that this summer has been an abysmal failure to capitalize on the momentum gained from last year and really have a "go for the gold" mentality. Myself and others feel like we have been lied to as paying customers about this teams commitment to put money on the ice and ice a team that is a legit cup contender. I don't see any reason why some of us shouldn't feel that way considering we were told that this year was going to be a little different and that we were going to add a mike fisher and we haven't. I think a lot of the frustration also is related to the Weber negotiations which also didn't really go well either.
That all being said, I am really excited about the team this season. So far we have looked really good in the preseason. Problem is, preseason means nothing. If we can get enough scoring (which I still have my doubts about) I think we will be a very very good team. Problem is we have a lot of unproven players and some unknown qualities. I believe Poile is a great GM, but he (and his son for that matter) really screwed the pooch in my mind this offseason. Let's hope we can eventually package some redundant parts and get another top six early in the season if need be.
I think what bothers people more than anything is simply this,
We had our best ever postseason in our franchises history, showing promise for the future after finally getting over that first round hump. Than what happens that offseason?!?
We lose Sullivan, ward, franson, o'brien, goc, dumont, and also the injured Lombardi.
After losing key players who do we bring in during this offseason??
Bergfors and stortini!
Just seems disappointing that's how it went down, so I think the way the offseason has went that makes the franson/lombardi trade look even worse.
All in all, I don't think we are much worse off than last season. But Poile definitely needs to bring in a guy that can help our terrible PP
I think what bothers people more than anything is simply this,
We had our best ever postseason in our franchises history, showing promise for the future after finally getting over that first round hump. Than what happens that offseason?!?
We lose Sullivan, ward, franson, o'brien, goc, dumont, and also the injured Lombardi.
After losing key players who do we bring in during this offseason??
Bergfors and stortini!
Just seems disappointing that's how it went down, so I think the way the offseason has went that makes the franson/lombardi trade look even worse.
All in all, I don't think we are much worse off than last season. But Poile definitely needs to bring in a guy that can help our terrible PP
Sullivan = a 37 year old with injury problems and who has lost a step ... killers for a player that depended on speed and skating ability.
Ward = grinder who wasn't worth the $3mil Wash gave him ... career best 17g, 35pts
Franson = 3rd pair d-man with a good snapshot.
O'Brien = bottom pair d-man. Passed on depth chart by Blum immediately upon Blum's callup.
Dumont = former point per game player turned healthy scratch/4th line minute vet. Unsigned since his buyout.
Lombardi = less than two full games played as a Pred. 20g career best. $3.5mil traded away when it looked as though the Preds were facing a second season with an albatross contract.
Replaced by:
-Bergfors's offensively bad season was more productive than Dumont's last season. 12g/36pts vs 10g/19pts.
-Blum made O'Brien expendable when he immediately stepped into a top four spot. Offensively, Blum was on a similar point pace to Franson.
-For seasons there have been calls to either play or move our defensive prospects ... they get played this season with Ekholm, Josi, Ellis, Laakso all competing for the third pairing spots. All are at least as good as Franson was defensively. Ellis has the skillset to potentially become the PP QB we've lacked for years.
-Wilson and Geoffrion get moved to bigger roles with the departure of Sullivan and Ward. Geoffrion put up 6g in 20 games, Ward 10g in 80 games.
-Smith comes in as a top nine, possibly top six forward from Wisconsin. Good showing at the Worlds and in preseason.
Let's face it, Stortini either becomes the permascratch or is an Admiral. He's not about to become a regular when our 4th/energy line is pretty much set with our top PK forward pair plus Tootoo.
None are sexy moves, but, at worst things position for position are a push from the post season with a lot more potential now than last season.
Sullivan = a 37 year old with injury problems and who has lost a step ... killers for a player that depended on speed and skating ability.
Ward = grinder who wasn't worth the $3mil Wash gave him ... career best 17g, 35pts
Franson = 3rd pair d-man with a good snapshot.
O'Brien = bottom pair d-man. Passed on depth chart by Blum immediately upon Blum's callup.
Dumont = former point per game player turned healthy scratch/4th line minute vet. Unsigned since his buyout.
Lombardi = less than two full games played as a Pred. 20g career best. $3.5mil traded away when it looked as though the Preds were facing a second season with an albatross contract.
Replaced by:
-Bergfors's offensively bad season was more productive than Dumont's last season. 12g/36pts vs 10g/19pts.
-Blum made O'Brien expendable when he immediately stepped into a top four spot. Offensively, Blum was on a similar point pace to Franson.
-For seasons there have been calls to either play or move our defensive prospects ... they get played this season with Ekholm, Josi, Ellis, Laakso all competing for the third pairing spots. All are at least as good as Franson was defensively. Ellis has the skillset to potentially become the PP QB we've lacked for years.
-Wilson and Geoffrion get moved to bigger roles with the departure of Sullivan and Ward. Geoffrion put up 6g in 20 games, Ward 10g in 80 games.
-Smith comes in as a top nine, possibly top six forward from Wisconsin. Good showing at the Worlds and in preseason.
Let's face it, Stortini either becomes the permascratch or is an Admiral. He's not about to become a regular when our 4th/energy line is pretty much set with our top PK forward pair plus Tootoo.
None are sexy moves, but, at worst things position for position are a push from the post season with a lot more potential now than last season.
agreed for the most part. I think the kids are going to surprise everyone this season. Like you said, nothing sexy this offseason but in my opinion will leave us with greater options in the near future/trade deadline, (which we will likely be something we all praise when it goes down)
all while icing a team that was up to par if not better than last years team. Im so ready for this season to start.
PS as much as i liked franson it becomes apparent that he is barely a third pairing on the maple leafs. Our D is head and shoulders above TMLs d even with our rookies and all. Everyone will be ok with this deal by season's end. Guaranteed.
PS as much as i liked franson it becomes apparent that he is barely a third pairing on the maple leafs. Our D is head and shoulders above TMLs d even with our rookies and all. Everyone will be ok with this deal by season's end. Guaranteed.
I doubt that...it was a lose-lose situation for Poile to be in and so ultimately some will always view it as a lose. I don't have a problem with that, but I see it for what it was and like you said am happy with the position we are now in...
I don't see why we had to make so many moves this offseason to improve upon the momentum of last years playoff run. The guys that got us there are still here, guys like Halischuk, Spaling, Geoffrion, Mueller, etc. These are the guys that took over when O'Reilly, Sully and Goc went down as well as filled in for guys who weren't producing like Dumont. The young guys will get more minutes because of their hard work last year. What that says to me is if you work your tail off here, you'll get rewarded with minutes and that's what they need to succeed. Wilson seems to have gotten the message about working in the system. SK is another year in and healthy coming into the season. Bergfors is a guy who fills in for the points lost when Ward left and then some. For all the people that bashed on O'Brien, he should be replaced by a better puck mover in Hillen, Ellis, Ekholm or Laakso. We still have the big 3.
To be quite honest, I'm pretty darn excited about the season starting at the end of the week and seeing what this team can accomplish. Everyone came to camp ready to play and it showed. Funny how shedding some of the old guard has created a healthy competition on many levels. When was the last time we were at this point of training camp and didn't know who our third pairing would be in addition to not knowing who the 12 forwards will be on opening night. Nice problem to have.
I'm fine with trading Lombardi. He's an okay player, not a great one.
I was bummed to trade Franson. I liked him and think he was a little underrated\received some unfair criticism from our fans, especially in hindsight. BUT-- ultimately I was okay with trading him in the right situation, given the pipeline of NHL ready talent ready to compete for a spot.
HOWEVER:
We were told a story that seems not to have been entirely accurate. Whenever asked about Lombardi just prior to the trade, Poile painted a grim picture of Lombardi never playing again, no progress at all having been made since the injury, etc. Suddenly he's traded, sees a different doctor, and increases his bike workouts, gets on the ice shortly after, joins the team for practice a little after that and then -- wham, he's cleared for contact and playing in preseason games. That's a pretty quick miraculous recovery, no?
I wish we could have waited a little bit to see what was going to happen, so that Lombardi could have possibly given himself a bit of value. A salary dump is never going to be a fruitful trade, but someone would have taken him if he was skating and playing. We might have gotten Robert Slaney for him,but who cares. The loss is having to sweeten the pot by including Franson.
Now, the issue with that..again, is not that losing Franson is so devastating, but he had real, tangible value. We talk about various trades we can make...be it Hartnell, be it Kostitsyn, be it Hemsky--whomever. Franson is a young, promising defenseman with room to get better. He represented a great chip in bringing in a player like that. With him gone, who becomes that chip? Ellis? Josi? Ekholm? Another first round pick? These guys all have more potential than Franson, but if we get to a point where we need or would like to supplement the roster, we're forced to give someone away that might be a little more painful to part with.
All because we might have made a poorly timed trade. Like I said--I dont' lose sleep over what we lost, but if you view this trade objectively from the perspective of BOTH teams, it's pretty lopsided.
one thing nobody has mentioned and is pure conspiracy theory stuff, but has anyone thought that maybe Lombardi didnt let Poile know just how much better he was feeling, in order to try to get traded??
I find it odd that he went from "still not on the bike" to "playing in preseason" that quickly...
one thing nobody has mentioned and is pure conspiracy theory stuff, but has anyone thought that maybe Lombardi didnt let Poile know just how much better he was feeling, in order to try to get traded??
I find it odd that he went from "still not on the bike" to "playing in preseason" that quickly...
i've had that thought...it just seems kind of weird. what could have changed that drastically that all of a sudden Lombardi went from taking a lower offer from us to play for us\wanting to play with Weber and Trotz--to lying about his condition to bring on a trade?
I just wondered if he saw the writing on the wall with the Fisher acquisition, and didnt want to be the obvious odd man out
maybe he knew that as a salary dump he would only have a couple of possible destinations, but as a servicable player he could end up getting traded anywhere.
We will never know, but I still think something is pretty shady about the whole deal
We were told a story that seems not to have been entirely accurate. Whenever asked about Lombardi just prior to the trade, Poile painted a grim picture of Lombardi never playing again, no progress at all having been made since the injury, etc. Suddenly he's traded, sees a different doctor, and increases his bike workouts, gets on the ice shortly after, joins the team for practice a little after that and then -- wham, he's cleared for contact and playing in preseason games. That's a pretty quick miraculous recovery, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82
.... but has anyone thought that maybe Lombardi didnt let Poile know just how much better he was feeling, in order to try to get traded??
I find it odd that he went from "still not on the bike" to "playing in preseason" that quickly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck
i've had that thought...it just seems kind of weird. what could have changed that drastically that all of a sudden Lombardi went from taking a lower offer from us to play for us\wanting to play with Weber and Trotz--to lying about his condition to bring on a trade?
All of the questions that we will never know the full answers to. You guys are all pointing to the general direction of what I hinted at when this trade went down...that there is far more to this story than what appeared on the surface. I don't believe in "miracle cures" and "faking it" goes way too far, but in between those two extremes is the most likely situation. I still maintain that both the player and organization are glad to be done with each other at this point.
1. I agree with the point about ML getting better awfully quickly. I think I was as excited as anyone to get him so it really disturbs me to think that he actually sand-bagged that he was getting better.
2. However, the whole trade still was predicated on Poile doing risk-management on the roster. We all go "look, more cap-space" but cap-space has never been this team's issue - it's cash-flow. Basically, given Orly is gonna' play and we had all the other kids, ML is redundant to MF. ML is potentially $7mil not of cap-space, but actual cash-flow, which went to Mr. Weber and his Arb award, at least for this year.
3. and yes, I do realize at some point cap-space comes into play because we impose the mid-point on ourselves, but really, with all the kids and knowing long-term we have to sign the "big 3", why would any of us - thinking rationally - think we were gonna' spend that money on an F? Now, I think history shows we will do a rental - but they tend to be lower-return types. Or we will make an acquisition Poile thinks is a long-term fit. I think the only reasonable exception we could - and can - expect for a bigger splash is that we might actually go for a high-end rental this year, assuming the kids actually step up. Oh - and history shows Poile will do this, too, Mr. Forsberg.
I think this is a non-issue. Could we use ML? Of course, assuming he's healthy. Do we need ML? Well, only if you think he - playing instead of Orly - is gonna' make us good enough to win the Division. How much better is he than Orly?
and please, enough CF love. We traded him to a terrible team (no offense if a Leafs fan is reading, but.....) and he's gonna' play 3rd pair minutes. He's not MZ QBing a PP and at least playing a little D; he has a quick accurate snapshot that's useful in spots, but his D shortcomings are still there and he's S-L-O-W. If you've watched pre-season, we clearly have at least 3 guys that are ready right now to play that 3rd pair; plus Cube if he ever gets healthy. Plus our Admirals friends make a strong case for Josi, so if he gets healthy that's 4 guys - as cheap or cheaper - at least 2 of whom have superior long-term upside to CF. They need to play. CF was the price to manage the risk of being stuck with a non-performing ML, who even healthy was redundant, wasn't a significant enough upgrade over Orly to get us a Div championship and was a long-term risk to have a repeat injury.
Even if you didn't expect this, can you really argue it was a BAD move? Maybe argue timing, maybe argue taking Lebda, but bad? I don't think bad.
You'll use the money to lock up Weber and Suter long term
Win-Win IMO
From your lips to God's ears.
But if the play was to use Lombo's $$$ (and the other buyouts) to lock up our FAs, why didn't it happen? Why did the Weber negotiations go so poorly? Why was there no talk of Suter/Rinne extensions? Why are all three still entering their final years of their contracts?
I think Poile had other ideas to bring in a player, wanted to be in a position to add them by getting rid of salary, but just couldn't get it done. I disagree with some who feel the deal is still in the works. Maybe I'll be wrong and something will happen this week, but I think Poile is comfortable with what we have, and to an extent, I am too.
I could see a trade happening if we're slow out of the gate, and this added financial flexibility will certainly be useful. But any trade deadline acquisitions will have nothing to do with what happened this summer as most rentals (those in the last years of their contracts, that is) will have already been paid most of their salary. If it's another Fisher type, then I guess you could argue that Lombo's $$$ will be put to good use on the remaining years of said player, but again, I don't think this is what Poile had in mind.
This summer would have been a whole lot better had Poile just extended one of the big three. Can anyone disagree with that statement? It would paint a much more solid picture of what the future will look like...
All of this makes my blood boil more because, at present, Lombardi is healthier that his "replacement", Fisher. Ridiculous.
I will answer my own question after perusing the leaf boards:
Lombardi is not ready for NHL duties
Considering how long its been since he played Lombardi looked fine
Well at this moment our centre depth looks like its back to normal, bunch of AHLers
Jake Gardiner made the leafs. no way they make him the 7th dman. the other 5 look to be locks for their D. Maybe he splits with Komiserek, but they need him for the pk.
I am joining those marveling at the miraculous recovery.
Smells fishy to me.
I am not going to address CF-- I've made posts analyzing that months ago. Look them up if you care to. As far as would I rather have Fisher or Lombo, that is a no brainer. Mike Fisher is a player better suited to this team and system, hands down. He is not a point machine and won't be even at his best. But he is a strong leader and faceoff man, plays hard minutes, knows what it takes in the post-season. He is a guy I want on my team. Lombo? great wheels, but one more hit from retirement.
But if the play was to use Lombo's $$$ (and the other buyouts) to lock up our FAs, why didn't it happen? Why did the Weber negotiations go so poorly? Why was there no talk of Suter/Rinne extensions? Why are all three still entering their final years of their contracts?
I think Poile had other ideas to bring in a player, wanted to be in a position to add them by getting rid of salary, but just couldn't get it done. I disagree with some who feel the deal is still in the works. Maybe I'll be wrong and something will happen this week, but I think Poile is comfortable with what we have, and to an extent, I am too.
I could see a trade happening if we're slow out of the gate, and this added financial flexibility will certainly be useful. But any trade deadline acquisitions will have nothing to do with what happened this summer as most rentals (those in the last years of their contracts, that is) will have already been paid most of their salary. If it's another Fisher type, then I guess you could argue that Lombo's $$$ will be put to good use on the remaining years of said player, but again, I don't think this is what Poile had in mind.
This summer would have been a whole lot better had Poile just extended one of the big three. Can anyone disagree with that statement? It would paint a much more solid picture of what the future will look like...
All of this makes my blood boil more because, at present, Lombardi is healthier that his "replacement", Fisher. Ridiculous.
I think we're going to add something. It won't be this week but it won't be at the trade deadline either. I have a funny feeling something will happen between now and the end of the calendar year. That would allow the new player coming in to gain some chemistry with the rest of the roster. It also allows Poile and Trotz to see what we really have and what we really need to get over the hump.
I know you and I have been at odds over this but let me throw something out there for both of us. If Poile sees what we have is good and we continue to grow, he was right in his assessments of talent. If we are good but not quite as good as where they think we should be, he has the ability via players/prospects/picks and cap space to make a splash if necessary. While I don't like the waiting game and what's been said in the media about adding salary, there may be more at play than we realize. I wanted one of the big three if not all three to be locked up by now. That would make both of us sleep better at night. Maybe, just maybe if the players that make the roster out of camp grow like we've expected, especially Wilson, maybe we're one player away like some think and then Poile can look for that addition by trading some of the young chips in Milwaukee. He won't know that until the team starts playing, that's the problem with all of this, wait and see.
I'm just glad we're starting up on Friday. Should be fun to watch a bunch of youth that skates and plays hard. No one will have the ability to take the night off. We also have a lot of home grown talent and the pieces that have been picked up along the way fit the Predators way of life. All of the old guard is gone which may be a blessing in disguise too.
This post wasn't to say what you're saying is wrong. You have a lot of validity to what you're saying. Just bringing an opinion in that may have been overlooked a little by both of us. Have a good week.
1. I agree with the point about ML getting better awfully quickly. I think I was as excited as anyone to get him so it really disturbs me to think that he actually sand-bagged that he was getting better.
2. However, the whole trade still was predicated on Poile doing risk-management on the roster. We all go "look, more cap-space" but cap-space has never been this team's issue - it's cash-flow. Basically, given Orly is gonna' play and we had all the other kids, ML is redundant to MF. ML is potentially $7mil not of cap-space, but actual cash-flow, which went to Mr. Weber and his Arb award, at least for this year.
3. and yes, I do realize at some point cap-space comes into play because we impose the mid-point on ourselves, but really, with all the kids and knowing long-term we have to sign the "big 3", why would any of us - thinking rationally - think we were gonna' spend that money on an F? Now, I think history shows we will do a rental - but they tend to be lower-return types. Or we will make an acquisition Poile thinks is a long-term fit. I think the only reasonable exception we could - and can - expect for a bigger splash is that we might actually go for a high-end rental this year, assuming the kids actually step up. Oh - and history shows Poile will do this, too, Mr. Forsberg.
I think this is a non-issue. Could we use ML? Of course, assuming he's healthy. Do we need ML? Well, only if you think he - playing instead of Orly - is gonna' make us good enough to win the Division. How much better is he than Orly?
and please, enough CF love. We traded him to a terrible team (no offense if a Leafs fan is reading, but.....) and he's gonna' play 3rd pair minutes. He's not MZ QBing a PP and at least playing a little D; he has a quick accurate snapshot that's useful in spots, but his D shortcomings are still there and he's S-L-O-W. If you've watched pre-season, we clearly have at least 3 guys that are ready right now to play that 3rd pair; plus Cube if he ever gets healthy. Plus our Admirals friends make a strong case for Josi, so if he gets healthy that's 4 guys - as cheap or cheaper - at least 2 of whom have superior long-term upside to CF. They need to play. CF was the price to manage the risk of being stuck with a non-performing ML, who even healthy was redundant, wasn't a significant enough upgrade over Orly to get us a Div championship and was a long-term risk to have a repeat injury.
Even if you didn't expect this, can you really argue it was a BAD move? Maybe argue timing, maybe argue taking Lebda, but bad? I don't think bad.
No it was a terrible move. Timing was wrong, no deal to get another top six, Lombardi is healthy and fisher isn't, and if franson was worth a 3.5 million dollar forward who may never play again what would he have been worth had we traded him straight up for a prospect of equal value. Now if we want to upgrade our offense, we will have to trade a better player and have less depth. You are undermining your own arguement.
No it was a terrible move. Timing was wrong, no deal to get another top six, Lombardi is healthy and fisher isn't, and if franson was worth a 3.5 million dollar forward who may never play again what would he have been worth had we traded him straight up for a prospect of equal value. Now if we want to upgrade our offense, we will have to trade a better player and have less depth. You are undermining your own arguement.
Well said. It was a failure in asset management. We could have either used Franson in a package for a forward or used him to clear capspace to go after a UFA or re-up the big 3. Instead we lose the two players, and don't accomplish either task. Very frustrating.
1. When was dumont ever a point per game player?
2 stevey Sullivan has been top 2 or 3 every year he was a predator in points, he will be missed on a team that lacks offensive help
3 ward is not worth half of what he got, but was still a big body and our best playoff performer in our best ever playoffs! Would we have even got to second round without ward???
4. Franson was great on PP, not spectacular but definitely put up numbers
5 you didn't even mention goc who was fantastic while he played
6. How was geoffrion a big part of how we got into playoffs when he only played 20 games all season?
7. I agree about no big loss with o'brien and dumont, but others will be missed... You can't say they won't be.
8. Do you think rookies can come in and play like veterans?? Other than Blum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101st_fan
Sullivan = a 37 year old with injury problems and who has lost a step ... killers for a player that depended on speed and skating ability.
Ward = grinder who wasn't worth the $3mil Wash gave him ... career best 17g, 35pts
Franson = 3rd pair d-man with a good snapshot.
O'Brien = bottom pair d-man. Passed on depth chart by Blum immediately upon Blum's callup.
Dumont = former point per game player turned healthy scratch/4th line minute vet. Unsigned since his buyout.
Lombardi = less than two full games played as a Pred. 20g career best. $3.5mil traded away when it looked as though the Preds were facing a second season with an albatross contract.
Replaced by:
-Bergfors's offensively bad season was more productive than Dumont's last season. 12g/36pts vs 10g/19pts.
-Blum made O'Brien expendable when he immediately stepped into a top four spot. Offensively, Blum was on a similar point pace to Franson.
-For seasons there have been calls to either play or move our defensive prospects ... they get played this season with Ekholm, Josi, Ellis, Laakso all competing for the third pairing spots. All are at least as good as Franson was defensively. Ellis has the skillset to potentially become the PP QB we've lacked for years.
-Wilson and Geoffrion get moved to bigger roles with the departure of Sullivan and Ward. Geoffrion put up 6g in 20 games, Ward 10g in 80 games.
-Smith comes in as a top nine, possibly top six forward from Wisconsin. Good showing at the Worlds and in preseason.
Let's face it, Stortini either becomes the permascratch or is an Admiral. He's not about to become a regular when our 4th/energy line is pretty much set with our top PK forward pair plus Tootoo.
None are sexy moves, but, at worst things position for position are a push from the post season with a lot more potential now than last season.
No it was a terrible move. Timing was wrong, no deal to get another top six, Lombardi is healthy and fisher isn't, and if franson was worth a 3.5 million dollar forward who may never play again what would he have been worth had we traded him straight up for a prospect of equal value. Now if we want to upgrade our offense, we will have to trade a better player and have less depth. You are undermining your own arguement.
