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Lombardi Playing Tonight: Re-Evaluating the Trade?

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Old
10-03-2011, 12:40 PM
  #51
PredsV82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
No it was a terrible move. Timing was wrong, no deal to get another top six, Lombardi is healthy and fisher isn't, and if franson was worth a 3.5 million dollar forward who may never play again what would he have been worth had we traded him straight up for a prospect of equal value. Now if we want to upgrade our offense, we will have to trade a better player and have less depth. You are undermining your own arguement.
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Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
Well said. It was a failure in asset management. We could have either used Franson in a package for a forward or used him to clear capspace to go after a UFA or re-up the big 3. Instead we lose the two players, and don't accomplish either task. Very frustrating.
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Couldn't have said this any better myself
I think you are all crazy if you think Poile didnt first try to trade Franson for something of more value. Its pretty obvious that poile KNEW that Franson was superflous heading into this season and I would suspect he was shopped and nobody offered much in return so instead poile used him to get what appeared to everyone to be a dead contract off the books.

If Franson is still in this league in 5 years, much less a top 4 defenseman, then you can all howl about what a waste of an asset it was... but the truth is we just dumped Andrew Hutchinson Part II, and the other GMs knew it or Poile almost certainly would have traded him for something of value

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Old
10-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
No it was a terrible move. Timing was wrong, no deal to get another top six, Lombardi is healthy and fisher isn't, and if franson was worth a 3.5 million dollar forward who may never play again what would he have been worth had we traded him straight up for a prospect of equal value. Now if we want to upgrade our offense, we will have to trade a better player and have less depth. You are undermining your own arguement.
We don't know if another deal was in place or not. Fisher's injury was known at the time he was acquired last year, that was no secret. If Lombardi plays the entire season and puts up 30-50 points, then and only then can you say it was a bad deal. My bet is he gets no more then 40 games in. We couldn't take the chance, pure and simple. Franson is going to be sitting in the press box more often then on the bench. Do you really think he had value in the market?

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10-03-2011, 01:14 PM
  #53
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According to reports from practice, Lombardi is starting on Toronto's third line.

Lombardi-Bozak-Armstrong

And Franson didn't make the team. He's the #7 D-Man and will have to sit in the pressbox for awhile.

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10-03-2011, 01:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by hackm View Post
According to reports from practice, Lombardi is starting on Toronto's third line.

Lombardi-Bozak-Armstrong

And Franson didn't make the team. He's the #7 D-Man and will have to sit in the pressbox for awhile.
thanks for the info.

will be instructive to revisit this trade at the end of the season.

I still say that a year from now we may realize the best part of this trade was freeing up a spot for one of our more talented prospects

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10-03-2011, 01:24 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hackm View Post
According to reports from practice, Lombardi is starting on Toronto's third line.

Lombardi-Bozak-Armstrong

And Franson didn't make the team. He's the #7 D-Man and will have to sit in the pressbox for awhile.
He did make the team. He's essentially playing leapfrog with the 5th/6th defenseman fighting for icetime to start off. He's more useful than Komisarek who can be a bit of a pylon.

Lombardi should be a lock for the bottom 6 either as the 3rd line LW or 4th line C.

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10-03-2011, 01:32 PM
  #56
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I think Franson not making a definate spot with the Leafs out of camp pretty well shows that the return we got for him (the ability to dump Lombardi) was pretty much the best we were going to get for him.

But I'm sure I'll skim through and read bickering back and forth for another 4 or 5 pages about how we were going to get something of value to us for him and Poile just threw him away without trying. I'm happier with unloading Lombardi's contract and using Franson as the throw in than I would have been had we shipped Franson off for a 4th round pick (hypothetical).

We don't know the offers/phone calls/propositions made.

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Old
10-03-2011, 01:32 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
1. When was dumont ever a point per game player?
2 stevey Sullivan has been top 2 or 3 every year he was a predator in points, he will be missed on a team that lacks offensive help
3 ward is not worth half of what he got, but was still a big body and our best playoff performer in our best ever playoffs! Would we have even got to second round without ward???
4. Franson was great on PP, not spectacular but definitely put up numbers
5 you didn't even mention goc who was fantastic while he played
6. How was geoffrion a big part of how we got into playoffs when he only played 20 games all season?

7. I agree about no big loss with o'brien and dumont, but others will be missed... You can't say they won't be.

8. Do you think rookies can come in and play like veterans?? Other than Blum?
http://hfboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=37404039
1. OK ... JP topped out at .9ppg as a Pred with two other seasons above .8ppg ... much better than his 19 pts in 70 games last season. (still no takers for him on the open market)

2. No Sully wasn't. He ranged from tied for first with Hornqvist to injured and scoring only 22 points. He only managed to play 9 of 12 playoff games last season. Great player from March 03-Feb 07, not so much since the injury. He's only played a full season once in the past three. Much like a gallon of milk, he has a best before date and he passed it.

3. Underperforming for 82 games can't be overlooked when a player is looking for too much money. Yes, he had a good post season, but by your own admission is overpaid this season.

4. Franson had 2 PP goals, 4 PP assists in the regular season. 0 PP goals, 3 PP assists in the playoffs.

5. Goc is a 3rd line center with the ability to play limited games on the 2nd line. He's a career .277ppg, or less than half of the offensive output of the oft maligned Legwand. He put up .42ppg in his one relatively full season as a Pred.

6. Geoffrion had the highest goals per 60mins of ice time on the team. Oh, and the Buffalo game. Compare his regular season numbers to those of Ward, Goc, and Dumont .. his 6 g in 20gp stands up quite well.

7. Yes, I can quite honestly say I won't miss guys well past their primes and replaceable 3rd pair defenders. I'm not mourning the departure of replaceable members of the Admirals either.

8. For the most part, yes they can. I've seen Josi and Laakso play in the AHL and they're pretty much ready for NHL 3rd pair time although Josi's injury cost him this camp. Ellis and Ekholm both have a good chance of starting the season in Milwaukee but both did a good job in camp and probably see time with the big club. Geoffrion did what was asked of him last season as did Halischuk and 21yr old Spaling. It looks like Smith is the only true rookie forward for opening night and based on his performance at camp and in the Worlds, he's earned the shot while Fisher is out. Bergfors is a former 20g scorer who put up 36 points last season in what was considered an off year for him. None of these guys need to put up stellar numbers. 10-15 goals, 20ish assists for those playing full seasons on the big club and they match or surpass the players you're saying we'll miss.

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Old
10-03-2011, 01:37 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
If Franson is still in this league in 5 years, much less a top 4 defenseman, then you can all howl about what a waste of an asset it was... but the truth is we just dumped Andrew Hutchinson Part II, and the other GMs knew it or Poile almost certainly would have traded him for something of value
Franson has a hot wife, cool kids, and an artilleryman for a dad? That would truly make him Hutch Part II ... along with his name on the Cup.

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10-03-2011, 02:18 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
He did make the team. He's essentially playing leapfrog with the 5th/6th defenseman fighting for icetime to start off. He's more useful than Komisarek who can be a bit of a pylon.

Lombardi should be a lock for the bottom 6 either as the 3rd line LW or 4th line C.
So I guess they can sub a pylon for a pylon. Makes some sense I guess

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10-03-2011, 02:56 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
He did make the team. He's essentially playing leapfrog with the 5th/6th defenseman fighting for icetime to start off. He's more useful than Komisarek who can be a bit of a pylon.

Lombardi should be a lock for the bottom 6 either as the 3rd line LW or 4th line C.
Grasping at straws with the Franson analogy. Making the team as a 7th defenseman when only 6 dress isn't really making the team, it's being the permascratch. He'll get some time but either way, Toronto figured out what we already knew about him, some good skills but others aren't up to par for a full time defenseman in this league.

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10-03-2011, 03:08 PM
  #61
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Pretty sure they wanted to dump him anyway, and used the injury as an excuse.

With Fisher and Weber/Rinne/Suter looking for extensions, Nashville is gonna have to spend alot in the next 2 years.

EDIT: Oops, thought I was still in the Leafs board.

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10-03-2011, 03:13 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
1. When was dumont ever a point per game player? 07-08 had 72 points in 80 games. not quite 1 point per game, but pretty close
2 stevey Sullivan has been top 2 or 3 every year he was a predator in points, he will be missed on a team that lacks offensive help I don't think we will miss his 10 regulare season goals all that much. I think touting his offensive contributions shows how misguided I think your opinion is, but alas, it is your opinion, and I respect that. I think we will miss him on the pk
3 ward is not worth half of what he got, but was still a big body and our best playoff performer in our best ever playoffs! Would we have even got to second round without ward??? maybe, maybe not
4. Franson was great on PP, not spectacular but definitely put up numbers he had 29 points in 80 games. big time numbers. There is a reason he may be permascratch dman in Toronto. (Gunnarson, Phaneuf, Schenn, Gardiner, and Liles have 5 spots locked up. He is battling Komiserek for the 6 job, and Komi plays the pk, which is something DP and Schenn do, not the others. I will leave the math up to you there)
5 you didn't even mention goc who was fantastic while he played If half a point per game is fantastic, we should have been battling Edmonton and Colorado for a top 3 pick in the draft
6. How was geoffrion a big part of how we got into playoffs when he only played 20 games all season? game winning goal at Vancouver and the Hat trick in Buffalo come right to mind. without those 4 points, we miss the playoffs.

7. I agree about no big loss with o'brien and dumont, but others will be missed... You can't say they won't be. I think we will miss obie's physical presence and the fact he stuck up for his teammates. Someone will have to step up and be that guy now.

8. Do you think rookies can come in and play like veterans?? Other than Blum? Doesn't matter. If you believe in the predator way, which is based on hard work and team play, you can make it work. We had the youngest lineup in the playoffs last year and look what we did.
I also am curious to see what tangible value Franson had, considering he is going to a bad defensive team and will be the 6/7 dman.

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10-03-2011, 04:15 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hackm View Post
According to reports from practice, Lombardi is starting on Toronto's third line.

Lombardi-Bozak-Armstrong

And Franson didn't make the team. He's the #7 D-Man and will have to sit in the pressbox for awhile.
Wait.....what??????????? Franson isn't on the starting lineup?????

But there are experts on this very board touting his awesomeness. I've read how he could get us a blue chip prospect or be part of a deal to get a top 6 forward. How could he not crack the starting lineup?

Hmmmm, maybe those professional GMs actually have an idea of a players value...

And no, I am not re-evaluating the trade. I didn't have a problem with it before and I don't have a problem with it now. If Lombardi can and does play, good for him.

Do the Preds get some kind of compensation if he plays a certain number of games? Thought I read that somewhere.

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10-03-2011, 05:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by hatedandproud View Post
Wait.....what??????????? Franson isn't on the starting lineup?????

But there are experts on this very board touting his awesomeness. I've read how he could get us a blue chip prospect or be part of a deal to get a top 6 forward. How could he not crack the starting lineup?

Hmmmm, maybe those professional GMs actually have an idea of a players value...

And no, I am not re-evaluating the trade. I didn't have a problem with it before and I don't have a problem with it now. If Lombardi can and does play, good for him.

Do the Preds get some kind of compensation if he plays a certain number of games? Thought I read that somewhere.
if Lombardi plays 60 games over the next 2 years the preds get a 4th round pick. If he doesnt, we send them a 4th rounder

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10-03-2011, 06:00 PM
  #65
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This thread proves that objective conversation cannot be had on any discussion that has any potential to cast doubt on David Poile. Sad. David Poile is a good GM, great even, but he makes quite a few mistakes. Failing to even acknowledge both sides of the coin is a mistake and disappointing.

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10-03-2011, 06:38 PM
  #66
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People disagree. Everybody has an opinion. I fail to see why it is disappointing if some people think Poile did something good, and the rest think he did something wrong.

Sounds pretty normal to me

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10-03-2011, 06:44 PM
  #67
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People disagree. Everybody has an opinion. I fail to see why it is disappointing if some people think Poile did something good, and the rest think he did something wrong.

Sounds pretty normal to me
To quote myself, "Failing to even acknowledge both sides of the coin...."

It isn't the debate that is disappointing. It is that some sides are so entrenched that a reasonable conversation is impossible. This is what is sad, but yes, this more often than not, is the normal in most avenues of debate.

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10-03-2011, 07:37 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
To quote myself, "Failing to even acknowledge both sides of the coin...."

It isn't the debate that is disappointing. It is that some sides are so entrenched that a reasonable conversation is impossible. This is what is sad, but yes, this more often than not, is the normal in most avenues of debate.
unfortunately, i think that is the norm in much of society today......

the avenue of reasonable conversation and debate has too many people blindly entrenched on their side.............how we got here is probably even a bone of contention .....

oh, wait, this isn't the political thread is it?

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10-03-2011, 08:10 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
This thread proves that objective conversation cannot be had on any discussion that has any potential to cast doubt on David Poile. Sad. David Poile is a good GM, great even, but he makes quite a few mistakes. Failing to even acknowledge both sides of the coin is a mistake and disappointing.
Well, its not just the poile defenders who fail to acknowledge both sides of the coin. As I have said before I hate it that poile was in the situation that led to him feeling this trade was necessary. And lombardis return does make it have even more "well crap" factor. But second guessing after the fact of lombardis return is known, or continuing to insist franson was some big trade chip even after he failed to crack the leafs top six is just as off base as unquestioning poile defending

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10-03-2011, 08:37 PM
  #70
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This trade was lost as soon as "Lebda" showed up in the panel, really.
At the same time, Blum, Josi, Ellis all fill the role Franson was in and Lombardi, as cool as he was, was redundant with Fisher, Wilson and what appears to be a reinvigorated Legwand. So aside from Ledba, it was pretty much a harmless trade to make. A kneejerk reaction, but mostly harmless.

Heh. Mostly Harmless.



Lebda though... Yikes.

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10-03-2011, 10:00 PM
  #71
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I admit, I had to chuckle this afternoon when I read that Franson is starting the year as the No. 7 D for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He is a valuable offensive weapon, but until he improves his skating, he is very limited defensively and needs to be protected in terms of zone starts and match ups. I think he'll actually earn his way into a regular role this season, but am happy to see that he's getting this wake up call right now...

As for Lombardi, I'm happy to see that he's healthy and wish him the best. Reality is that we couldn't afford to take the risk moving forward that he could suffer another setback or sustain another concussion and possibly be out long-term again. We are a small market team, Toronto actually gets a benefit if he goes on LTIR, but we do not.

As I said last night, this was a no win situation for Poile, but I think he made the right decision shedding two assets to make room for some roster competition amongst our younger players and in the long run we will come out better for it.

That's just my opinion, I don't expect everyone to agree with it and understand that some just see it as shedding two assets and getting back a buyout (Lebda) and an AHL lifer at best (Slaney) for it. That IS frustrating!!! If you look past this move though and look for the big picture, I think there's a case to be made that we are better off for the move though.

P.S. Every time this topic comes up I cringe when I click on the thread. It is singlehandedly the most divisive issue that the fan base has gone through since the "Legwand" debates of the mid-2000's.

Please just be civil when debating the issue and realize that no one's necessarily right or wrong and that there's multiple ways of looking at it. Personal attacks won't be tolerated...


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10-03-2011, 10:04 PM
  #72
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I'm fine with this trade and I love David Legwand.

There, I said it.

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10-03-2011, 10:17 PM
  #73
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So I guess they can sub a pylon for a pylon. Makes some sense I guess
Uh, oh. Someone just dropped the P-word.

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10-04-2011, 01:16 AM
  #74
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Uh, oh. Someone just dropped the P-word.
It's hard being on both sides of the border with this deal, literally and figuratively. Still, it was pretty funny to hear the ridiculous over-hype of Franson. Top 3 defenseman, first powerplay unit at the point, etc etc.....and then leaf fans saw him play. Not quite what they were expecting to say the least. It's amazing the conclusions some people make about a player without actually seeing him play. That being said, can't paint everyone with the same brush.


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10-04-2011, 01:44 AM
  #75
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I always thought Franson would have garnered more in a trade.
I thought his potential is high no? (Albeit, I am basing this mostly on NHL 11 potential stats lol)

If he's #7 on TML, yeah thats not much of a loss.

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