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Steve Simmons (Toronto Sun): Flyers GM denies rumours about Richards, Carter trades

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Old
09-23-2011, 07:55 AM
  #76
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they are gone, it's time to move on from # 17 and 18.
Bring Back Scotty Upshall!

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09-23-2011, 07:56 AM
  #77
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Oh brother. Name me one player who hasn't been injured at some point in his career.
Any goalie who backs up Martin Brodeur. Simply because that goalie never plays, so it's impossible to get hurt.

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10-03-2011, 01:26 PM
  #78
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Why Richards and Carter Were Really Traded

Forget the rumors of partying, leadership issues, and any other theories regarding why the Flyers decided to move their major centerpieces this past summer. Itís all overblown hype and bs. When the Flyers say itís a hockey move, they are not lying about it. They just are not revealing their entire thought process behind it. And this comes down to is money and the future of the team. It had to do with dumping long contracts that the Flyers felt these players would not live up to.

http://broadstreetbuzz.com/2011/10/0...really-traded/

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10-03-2011, 01:30 PM
  #79
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Why Richards and Carter Were Really Traded

Forget the rumors of partying, leadership issues, and any other theories regarding why the Flyers decided to move their major centerpieces this past summer. It’s all overblown hype and bs. When the Flyers say it’s a hockey move, they are not lying about it. They just are not revealing their entire thought process behind it. And this comes down to is money and the future of the team. It had to do with dumping long contracts that the Flyers felt these players would not live up to.

http://broadstreetbuzz.com/2011/10/0...really-traded/
Then they're going to be ****ing pissed when Ilya Bryzgalov turns out to be just good and not Vezina.

Honestly, if this article is correct, then the organization is much more idiotic than anyone around here thinks. Thank god these were not hockey moves.

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10-03-2011, 01:37 PM
  #80
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Then they're going to be ****ing pissed when Ilya Bryzgalov turns out to be just good and not Vezina.

Honestly, if this article is correct, then the organization is much more idiotic than anyone around here thinks. Thank god these were not hockey moves.
Bryzgalov is going to be in the running for the Vezina this yr wait and see........

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10-03-2011, 01:37 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Why Richards and Carter Were Really Traded

Forget the rumors of partying, leadership issues, and any other theories regarding why the Flyers decided to move their major centerpieces this past summer. Itís all overblown hype and bs. When the Flyers say itís a hockey move, they are not lying about it. They just are not revealing their entire thought process behind it. And this comes down to is money and the future of the team. It had to do with dumping long contracts that the Flyers felt these players would not live up to.

http://broadstreetbuzz.com/2011/10/0...really-traded/
Pretty crappy article imo.

"Pronger got a lengthy contracted that was front loaded. The term was stretched out make a friendlier cap hit."

So he justifies Pronger's length because of the low cap hit, yet condemns Richards' and Carter's contracts because of the length? It's the same thing. Richards and Carter got the term in order to get the friendlier cap hit as well. If anything, Richards and Carter are more justifiable because they are far younger.

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10-03-2011, 01:58 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Pretty crappy article imo.

"Pronger got a lengthy contracted that was front loaded. The term was stretched out make a friendlier cap hit."

So he justifies Pronger's length because of the low cap hit, yet condemns Richards' and Carter's contracts because of the length? It's the same thing. Richards and Carter got the term in order to get the friendlier cap hit as well. If anything, Richards and Carter are more justifiable because they are far younger.
Exactly.

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10-03-2011, 03:29 PM
  #83
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Oh brother. Name me one player who hasn't been injured at some point in his career.
Actually, this did cross my mind, particularly as it relates to Richards.

I just don't buy the prudish Flyers front office/media lynch mob theory, nor do I buy the "hockey" trade theory on Richards, because if the Flyers are trying to win a Stanley Cup in the next 2-3 years, the trades are dubious at best.

I could see parting ways with Richie if they didn't think his body could handle the wear and tear of playing an intense brand of physical hockey in his relatively smallish frame. He's had a lot of surgery already, and with his playing style he's going to have more. If it starts to take a toll on his production suddenly he goes from a great cap-hit to overpaid. I can see that.

I don't agree with it, but it makes far more sense than "it makes us a better hockey team (short-term)" or "Holmgren/Snider/Lavy are a bunch of nazis".

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10-03-2011, 04:24 PM
  #84
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Then they're going to be ****ing pissed when Ilya Bryzgalov turns out to be just good and not Vezina.

Honestly, if this article is correct, then the organization is much more idiotic than anyone around here thinks. Thank god these were not hockey moves.
How are they idiotic? Because they reversed their plan. They absolutely were hockey moves. they were never anything else.

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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Pretty crappy article imo.

"Pronger got a lengthy contracted that was front loaded. The term was stretched out make a friendlier cap hit."

So he justifies Pronger's length because of the low cap hit, yet condemns Richards' and Carter's contracts because of the length? It's the same thing. Richards and Carter got the term in order to get the friendlier cap hit as well. If anything, Richards and Carter are more justifiable because they are far younger.
Pronger if he breaks down physically, can be placed on LTIR in the later years of his deal. His deal, and the Richards and Carter deals are completely different situations

The premise of the article is absolutely correct.

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10-03-2011, 04:40 PM
  #85
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How are they idiotic? Because they reversed their plan. They absolutely were hockey moves. they were never anything else.

Pronger if he breaks down physically, can be placed on LTIR in the later years of his deal. His deal, and the Richards and Carter deals are completely different situations

The premise of the article is absolutely correct.


Thesis of this article:

The Flyers traded Richards and Carter because the two were on long term deals that financially handicapped the Flyers' flexibility in the future.

Counter-thesis made by posters:

The idea that Richards and Carter were traded because of their long-term contracts makes no sense in a salary cap world both because with the ever-rising salary cap their contracts became more of a bargain the more years they played and because of other contracts they not only committed to (and are still committed to) from before the trades but also the ones from after the trades.

Basically the thesis of this article is flat-out WRONG, INCORRECT, NOT CORRECT...however you want to say it.

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10-03-2011, 05:02 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post


Thesis of this article:

The Flyers traded Richards and Carter because the two were on long term deals that financially handicapped the Flyers' flexibility in the future.

Counter-thesis made by posters:

The idea that Richards and Carter were traded because of their long-term contracts makes no sense in a salary cap world both because with the ever-rising salary cap their contracts became more of a bargain the more years they played and because of other contracts they not only committed to (and are still committed to) from before the trades but also the ones from after the trades.

Basically the thesis of this article is flat-out WRONG, INCORRECT, NOT CORRECT...however you want to say it.
You should go back and reread the article. Because you obviously missed a very key point made in the article. If you can't figure out what it is. I'd be happy to point it out to you.

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10-03-2011, 05:22 PM
  #87
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How are they idiotic? Because they reversed their plan. They absolutely were hockey moves. they were never anything else.



Pronger if he breaks down physically, can be placed on LTIR in the later years of his deal. His deal, and the Richards and Carter deals are completely different situations

The premise of the article is absolutely correct.
The flyers won't put Pronger on LTIR the way they did with Rathje. If Pronger's body begins to break down, then he'll just outright retire. Neither Pronger's ego nor legacy will see him on LTIR to end his career.

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10-03-2011, 05:34 PM
  #88
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The flyers won't put Pronger on LTIR the way they did with Rathje. If Pronger's body begins to break down, then he'll just outright retire. Neither Pronger's ego nor legacy will see him on LTIR to end his career.
I couldn't disagree more. Pronger could care less about that. He would only care about getting paid. He's also signed to a 35+ deal. Which means if he retires before the deal is up, he still counts towards the Cap. Still think the Flyers wouldn't put him on LTIR if it comes to that?

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10-03-2011, 05:46 PM
  #89
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I couldn't disagree more. Pronger could care less about that. He would only care about getting paid. He's also signed to a 35+ deal. Which means if he retires before the deal is up, he still counts towards the Cap. Still think the Flyers wouldn't put him on LTIR if it comes to that?
I know his contract would still count against the cap. The last two years of his deal combined are only worth just over a million dollars. I know it's still a million dollars, but at that point of his career Pronger shouldn't have concerns about money and if he can't go at the level that he wants to, then yes I think he'll consider retirment. Also, LTIR isn't just some thing you use to get rid of players that you don't want anymore. The team would have to prove that Pronger is physically unable to play, not that he's just not worth his contract. I just think that a guy like Pronger is not going to sit on LTIR for one or multiple seasons with his post hockey life in limbo.

Regardless, I think Pronger will remain healthy anyway and remain an effective player until the end of his contract.

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10-03-2011, 05:57 PM
  #90
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Pronger if he breaks down physically, can be placed on LTIR in the later years of his deal. His deal, and the Richards and Carter deals are completely different situations

The premise of the article is absolutely correct.
And Richards and Carter can't? What risk is there in the Richards and Carter contracts that don't exist in Pronger's? That doesn't make any sense.

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10-03-2011, 06:47 PM
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I know his contract would still count against the cap. The last two years of his deal combined are only worth just over a million dollars. I know it's still a million dollars, but at that point of his career Pronger shouldn't have concerns about money and if he can't go at the level that he wants to, then yes I think he'll consider retirment. Also, LTIR isn't just some thing you use to get rid of players that you don't want anymore. The team would have to prove that Pronger is physically unable to play, not that he's just not worth his contract. I just think that a guy like Pronger is not going to sit on LTIR for one or multiple seasons with his post hockey life in limbo.

Regardless, I think Pronger will remain healthy anyway and remain an effective player until the end of his contract.
Where did I say that they can use LTIR because they don't want the player anymore? If you reread the post that you originally replied to, I said if he breaks down physically. I guess I should have been more specific and said if he sustains injuries that prevent him from continuing to play. He already has a documented back issue. Think that's going to hold up forever? What post Hockey life would he be putting in limbo? He can do the same things being on LTIR that he can being retired. No reason for him to give up the 1M or hurt the Flyers Cap wise.

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And Richards and Carter can't? What risk is there in the Richards and Carter contracts that don't exist in Pronger's? That doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense huh? While there is always the risk of a player sustaining a career ending injury at any age. Which players do you think stand the better chance of finishing out their contracts. Carter, whose deal expires when he's 36, Richards whose deal expires when he's 34, or Pronger, whose deal expires when he's 41? You tell me!

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10-03-2011, 07:08 PM
  #92
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I know his contract would still count against the cap. The last two years of his deal combined are only worth just over a million dollars. I know it's still a million dollars, but at that point of his career Pronger shouldn't have concerns about money and if he can't go at the level that he wants to, then yes I think he'll consider retirment. Also, LTIR isn't just some thing you use to get rid of players that you don't want anymore. The team would have to prove that Pronger is physically unable to play, not that he's just not worth his contract. I just think that a guy like Pronger is not going to sit on LTIR for one or multiple seasons with his post hockey life in limbo.

Regardless, I think Pronger will remain healthy anyway and remain an effective player until the end of his contract.
I'm pretty sure the cap hit is what is going to kill the Flyers if Pronger retires. $4.9 million per year. This contract was constructed like an under 35 contract but our GM didn't know the rules. So if Pronger decides to retire at any time, cap hell is where we'll be, not that we're ever not in it. $5 million of dead space.

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10-03-2011, 09:05 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
I'm pretty sure the cap hit is what is going to kill the Flyers if Pronger retires. $4.9 million per year. This contract was constructed like an under 35 contract but our GM didn't know the rules. So if Pronger decides to retire at any time, cap hell is where we'll be, not that we're ever not in it. $5 million of dead space.
I don't think it'll get to that point. He'll likely go down the Rathje/Hatcher road. That seems to be standard operating procedure for the Flyers.

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10-03-2011, 09:27 PM
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Where did I say that they can use LTIR because they don't want the player anymore? If you reread the post that you originally replied to, I said if he breaks down physically. I guess I should have been more specific and said if he sustains injuries that prevent him from continuing to play. He already has a documented back issue. Think that's going to hold up forever? What post Hockey life would he be putting in limbo? He can do the same things being on LTIR that he can being retired. No reason for him to give up the 1M or hurt the Flyers Cap wise.



It doesn't make any sense huh? While there is always the risk of a player sustaining a career ending injury at any age. Which players do you think stand the better chance of finishing out their contracts. Carter, whose deal expires when he's 36, Richards whose deal expires when he's 34, or Pronger, whose deal expires when he's 41? You tell me!
Yeah your point makes sense. I was under the impression that a player on LTIR had to be evaluated pretty frequently about their health status. After looking around it seems that they just have to be declared unhealthy once and then they can stay on LTIR as long as the team wants. The only concern is if Pronger just decides to retire instead of ending his prominent career as a long term injured player.

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10-03-2011, 09:29 PM
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I'm pretty sure the cap hit is what is going to kill the Flyers if Pronger retires. $4.9 million per year. This contract was constructed like an under 35 contract but our GM didn't know the rules. So if Pronger decides to retire at any time, cap hell is where we'll be, not that we're ever not in it. $5 million of dead space.
This is ultimately the fear. The contract was poorly constructed and it's amazing to me that nobody realized that this would be a 35+ contract. That much dead cap space is essentially a first line player's contract that would more then likely have to be replaced by a player on an entry level deal.

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10-03-2011, 09:32 PM
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Yeah your point makes sense. I was under the impression that a player on LTIR had to be evaluated pretty frequently about their health status. After looking around it seems that they just have to be declared unhealthy once and then they can stay on LTIR as long as the team wants. The only concern is if Pronger just decides to retire instead of ending his prominent career as a long term injured player.
Well not really. Not as long as a team wants. Each Season the team will have to document his injuries, and be granted approval from the League to place the player on LTIR.

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10-03-2011, 11:35 PM
  #97
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Thesis of this article:
Since we can't have fun with 'fixed' anymore, how about this, more accurate assessement:

The faeces of this article....

Enough said, total dreck.

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10-04-2011, 06:08 AM
  #98
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Since we can't have fun with 'fixed' anymore, how about this, more accurate assessement:

The faeces of this article....

Enough said, total dreck.
Faeces is exactly how I'd describe the thought that went into the structure of Pronger's contract.

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10-04-2011, 08:10 AM
  #99
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Faeces is exactly how I'd describe the thought that went into the structure of Pronger's contract.

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10-04-2011, 12:29 PM
  #100
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That horse ain't dead yet. It won't be until that contract is off the books. I think he'll either play out the contract or suddenly suffer from some debilitating yet hard to disprove medical condition and go out on LTIR, but it is more than fair to discuss the myriad ways that the contract hamstrings what we can do in the future. I would gladly trade for Pronger again, but the contract was ill-conceived.

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