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Old
10-03-2011, 03:10 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Josh Gorges

Look you and I both know that not many are going to pound Chara but I don't like the trend that's developing. So to summarize I wouldn't mind having Malone on this team or a d-man in that mould. The Habs seemingly have no interest whatsoever in that type of player.

I gave examples of those players already and while nobody would be able to pound Chara they possible could be a deterrent for these other guys. I seriously would rather Mara then Hal Gill but hey.............Gill knows how to Tweet and that's all that's needed right? Marketability and something for the fans to latch onto?
You think the habs keep gill for his 'marketability'?

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10-03-2011, 03:13 PM
  #52
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2010 wasn't just a string of good luck that finally ran out. From the moment the puck dropped against Philly the entire tone of the playoffs changed. We were hit, pummeled and bashed relentlessly for the first half of the period.
Unfortunately, this is indeed only your perception, reinforced by the results and the stories that have been written about the series. The Flyers actually outplayed the Habs less than did the Penguins and the Caps; which is not surprising because those two were better clubs than Philly. But outplay the Habs they did, and the Canadiens were simply out of miracles. The notion that the Flyers did something special to change the result relative to the other two is typical human projection of results into process.

The Habs have lost their last few playoff series against teams with a reputation for toughness and since they have a reputation for lack of size and physicality, it was immediately blamed. It's unfortunate that nobody in mainstream sports media bothers with actual analysis, which is why this sort of narrative myth persists.

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And you? You've stated what you think the Habs issue ISN'T. What do you think it IS? With the understanding, of course, that this whole game of "Assemble the perfect team" is totally subjective.
For the longest time, it was a 5-on-5 puck possession game that ranged from "subpar" to "absolutely horrid". All the talk about toughness and physicality was a red herring to the fact that the Habs were crap at evens and made their hay on special teams. Sometimes the toughness/physicality was blamed for the lack of 5-on-5 game, but that was more of the tendancy to blame toughness/physicality for everything.

2010-2011 was interesting because it was a major departure from that previous condition. Should that trend continue, incremental upgrades may be all that is needed.

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10-03-2011, 03:33 PM
  #53
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You think the habs keep gill for his 'marketability'?
Forgot............

And his elite reach.

Having said that - yes..........I do think some of it is marketing. All of of it - absolutely not. And I do think this Twitter stuff is absolutely marketing. Social media is the "in" thing and the Habs appear to be encouraging their players to Tweet with the best of them and I bet fans gobble it up left and right.


Last edited by swimmer77: 10-03-2011 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Because Malone hit me while I was typing.
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10-03-2011, 03:37 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Forgot............

And his elite reach.

Having said that - yes..........I do think some of it is marketing. All of of it - absolutely not. And I do think this Twitter stuff is absolutely marketing. Social media is the "in" thing and the Habs appear to be encouraging their players to Tweet with the best of them and I bet fans gobble it up left and right.
So we sign Paul Bissonette and everyone is happy?

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Old
10-03-2011, 04:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Unfortunately, this is indeed only your perception, reinforced by the results and the stories that have been written about the series. The Flyers actually outplayed the Habs less than did the Penguins and the Caps; which is not surprising because those two were better clubs than Philly. But outplay the Habs they did, and the Canadiens were simply out of miracles. The notion that the Flyers did something special to change the result relative to the other two is typical human projection of results into process.
Not everything gets lost in the wash of mass perceptions and foggy memory. There was indeed a distinct style shift by the Flyers to a much more physical one, which played to Canadiens' weakness -- quite obviously, since they were shutout three out of the first four games. Yes, the Flyers outplayed them, but it wasn't like the Habs suddenly forgot how to score or suddenly ran out of luck. Watching that first game -- hell, the first period -- it was clear the Flyers had adopted a very conscious strategy of running us into the boards and finishing every check as hard as possible. The change in physicality from previous series to this one was clearly obvious by watching the game, and its effectiveness clearly obvious by watching the score.

Can I quantify this with absolute proof? Of course not -- it's a game with 12 constant variables skating around each other at high speed. So call it my perception if you wish, but that leaves this debate in a lame gray area between our two subjective perceptions. Much more fun to say I'm right and you're wrong.

Quote:
The Habs have lost their last few playoff series against teams with a reputation for toughness and since they have a reputation for lack of size and physicality, it was immediately blamed. It's unfortunate that nobody in mainstream sports media bothers with actual analysis, which is why this sort of narrative myth persists.
The only narrative myth is that all the Habs have to do is THIS or THAT. Like any ebb-and-flow sport with a bunch of guys playing simultaneously, it's never just one thing. It's not JUST a power forward, or a tougher defense corps, or an enforcer, etc. It's a combo of a few elements and how they mix into the intangible soup of a 60-minute game. But we have to start somewhere.

Quote:
For the longest time, it was a 5-on-5 puck possession game that ranged from "subpar" to "absolutely horrid". All the talk about toughness and physicality was a red herring to the fact that the Habs were crap at evens and made their hay on special teams.
Agree with you here. But again, this is one element among many elements all overlapping each other. I can argue that our 5 on 5 play will be vastly improved by the more physical presence of bigger forwards driving toward the net.

Then there are the little things like reducing so many minor penalties, which I think we also agree on.

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Old
10-03-2011, 05:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Can I quantify this with absolute proof? Of course not -- it's a game with 12 constant variables skating around each other at high speed. So call it my perception if you wish, but that leaves this debate in a lame gray area between our two subjective perceptions. Much more fun to say I'm right and you're wrong.
More fun, but not terribly productive. Besides, I'm right and you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The only narrative myth is that all the Habs have to do is THIS or THAT. Like any ebb-and-flow sport with a bunch of guys playing simultaneously, it's never just one thing. It's not JUST a power forward, or a tougher defense corps, or an enforcer, etc. It's a combo of a few elements and how they mix into the intangible soup of a 60-minute game. But we have to start somewhere.
I agree with this, to an extent. The best way to improve's one team is to keep finding better and better players. I don't think that's very controversial, except for the small matter of defining "better".

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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Agree with you here. But again, this is one element among many elements all overlapping each other. I can argue that our 5 on 5 play will be vastly improved by the more physical presence of bigger forwards driving toward the net.
I've seen that argued, but I don't really buy it. At any rate, if the Habs maintain their 2010-2011 numbers, they're well inside the top third of the league, so that issue may have become moot -- let's hope!

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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Then there are the little things like reducing so many minor penalties, which I think we also agree on.
Yes. Although how becoming "tougher" would help that rather than hinder it, I'm not sure. Though eliminating guys like Pouliot and replacing him with Cole will help (Pouliot is a big penalty taker, Cole a big penalty drawer).

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Old
10-03-2011, 05:53 PM
  #57
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@Math, 82 games coming & I'm sure we will find one to dis-agree, always enjoy reading your break downs.

In the end were all on the same team!

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Old
10-03-2011, 06:26 PM
  #58
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Surely the relevant thing for your arguement wouldn't be what you think, it would be what the person receiving the hits and his team mates thought of them:

"When I look at those two hits and we talk about blindside - that's a big word - and unsuspecting player ... there's no puck there on both of them," Crosby said. "It was a direct hit to the head on both of them. When you go through the criteria, I think they fit all those"
I don't think Steckel was trying to hit Crosby, to me, it looked like he was trying to avoid him. I wouldn't take Crosby's opinion on the matter because he admittedly can't think straight while he was concussed. His opinion is obviously largely skewed.

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Old
10-04-2011, 06:49 AM
  #59
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I agree about last year against Boston, but the year before we were clearly out muscled by Philly, and that was the reason we were "dominated" and lost the series....

But I think PG knows what he's doing. Trading up to select Tinordi in the first round, as well as acquiring Schultz in the Halak/Eller deal show PG knows we need to get tougher. Once Schultz and Tinordi are regulars, the habs will have one of the tougher teams in the league. We just have to be patient.
We just have to be patient. Meanhwile our Habs will continue getting killed out there. And Shanahan will make excuses for our players getting killed.

If your 3 children (or Habs) are being bullied, beaten up to a pulp almost everyday
(every game) in the schoolyard and the principal (Shanahan) doesn't do anything to punish the bullies (ex: Malone on Campoli), then what would you do as a parent (GM, coach) to protect your 3 children? ''We just have to be patient??''.

I like your post, I think like this too...Gauthier understands we need tougher/bigger players (Shultz, Tinordi, Conboy) which I really like, and looking forward to those players, BUT...our players (Plekanec, Campoli, Gorges, Subban, Desharnais,etc) need help NOW. We can't afford to be patient.

In order for our smaller players to do their magic (win by playing clean hockey) we need a Chris Neil type. The minimum we should have is: Chris Neil type, Moen, White, and maybe even a slightly better version of Mara. The minimum.
Moen and White...it's just not fair to them.
For example: Moen + White VS Boychuk, Lucic, Chara, Thornton,etc...
We're missing at least one more...a Chris Neil type.
Where to find this Chris Neil type? Ottawa is a good start!


Rhetorial question:
If you were Moen and/or White wouldn't you be more confident with a Chris Neil type in the Habs' lineup?? (or maybe Desharnais and Weber have been taking boxing lessons this summer?!).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 10-04-2011 at 07:08 AM.
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Old
10-04-2011, 07:15 AM
  #60
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there's a reason he always plays for bad teams...
I read somewhere that being a 4th line centerman, you can be good enough if you whine your share of faceoffs and are not detrimental to your team defensively. Well we know how good he is in the first category.....and everytime I see him, he's surely not a bad defensive player. Add the fact that he adds a toughness side and he's a pretty good 4th line player.

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10-04-2011, 07:26 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
We just have to be patient. Meanhwile our Habs will continue getting killed out there. And Shanahan will make excuses for our players getting killed.

If your 3 children (or Habs) are being bullied, beaten up to a pulp almost everyday
(every game) in the schoolyard and the principal (Shanahan) doesn't do anything to punish the bullies (ex: Malone on Campoli), then what would you do as a parent (GM, coach) to protect your 3 children? ''We just have to be patient??''.

I like your post, I think like this too...Gauthier understands we need tougher/bigger players (Shultz, Tinordi, Conboy) which I really like, and looking forward to those players, BUT...our players (Plekanec, Campoli, Gorges, Subban, Desharnais,etc) need help NOW. We can't afford to be patient.

In order for our smaller players to do their magic (win by playing clean hockey) we need a Chris Neil type. The minimum we should have is: Chris Neil type, Moen, White, and maybe even a slightly better version of Mara. The minimum.
Moen and White...it's just not fair to them.
For example: Moen + White VS Boychuk, Lucic, Chara, Thornton,etc...
We're missing at least one more...a Chris Neil type.
Where to find this Chris Neil type? Ottawa is a good start!


Rhetorial question:
If you were Moen and/or White wouldn't you be more confident with a Chris Neil type in the Habs' lineup?? (or maybe Desharnais and Weber have been taking boxing lessons this summer?!).
i swear sometimes it's like were watching two different games...

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Old
10-04-2011, 07:37 AM
  #62
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Mr Hab gets it... Habs have been pushed around for the past few years. Like it or not the road to success runs directly through Boston, and much like we did with the Flyers of the 70s, it's time to send the message that we won't be intimidated. Initiate AND retaliate... I'd love to get a Clarkson or Neil type and an Engelland/Carkner dman. Ask Spacek, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Gionta, Subban et al if they'd like more protection.

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Old
10-04-2011, 07:42 AM
  #63
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I read somewhere that being a 4th line centerman, you can be good enough if you whine your share of faceoffs and are not detrimental to your team defensively. Well we know how good he is in the first category.....and everytime I see him, he's surely not a bad defensive player. Add the fact that he adds a toughness side and he's a pretty good 4th line player.
i guess he's so good that they only signed him for one year @ 700k

wanna talk about rupp, or neil? ok, we can have that conversation. but, im sorry i don't buy the narrative that konopka is a good player - or even a good enough player. if all your looking for is his faceoff win % and his PIM, then yeah, he's awesome and supertough™

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10-04-2011, 08:56 AM
  #64
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i guess he's so good that they only signed him for one year @ 700k

wanna talk about rupp, or neil? ok, we can have that conversation. but, im sorry i don't buy the narrative that konopka is a good player - or even a good enough player. if all your looking for is his faceoff win % and his PIM, then yeah, he's awesome and supertough™
If the Habs truly want a centerman that can play and enforce go to SKA St.Petersburg and bring Eugene Artukyin back.

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10-04-2011, 09:15 AM
  #65
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Not trying to be mean but Konopka really is a terrible hockey player. There is a reason he was on the 4th line of a team that had AHLers on the squad and it isn't because he's good at draws and physical it's because he sucks and limiting his ice time is for the betterment of the team.

Till this day I don't get how all of you guys fap every night to the thought of having this guy he's a joke. Like another poster mentioned Neil or Rupp? Sure... but Konopka? The guy sucks and I just don't get why people try and claim otherwise. He sucks.

There's a reason once again he's going to play for a lottery team on the 4th line.

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10-04-2011, 09:39 AM
  #66
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Not trying to be mean but Konopka really is a terrible hockey player. There is a reason he was on the 4th line of a team that had AHLers on the squad and it isn't because he's good at draws and physical it's because he sucks and limiting his ice time is for the betterment of the team.

Till this day I don't get how all of you guys fap every night to the thought of having this guy he's a joke. Like another poster mentioned Neil or Rupp? Sure... but Konopka? The guy sucks and I just don't get why people try and claim otherwise. He sucks.

There's a reason once again he's going to play for a lottery team on the 4th line.
Simply not true.

I've seen him play both in junior and the NHL. He doesn't "suck". Is he a great player? No. But he doesn't suck.

If you look at his minor league (AHL) stats and compare those to the minor league stats of our 4th liners (Enqvist, White etc) you will see they are comparable.

Plus this argument that he was a 4th liner on a bad team is BOGUS. You know who else was a 4th liner on the same team? Sean Bergenheim - and I would take Bergenheim over a bunch of guys on this team.

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10-04-2011, 09:48 AM
  #67
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Simply not true.

I've seen him play both in junior and the NHL. He doesn't "suck". Is he a great player? No. But he doesn't suck.

If you look at his minor league (AHL) stats and compare those to the minor league stats of our 4th liners (Enqvist, White etc) you will see they are comparable.

Plus this argument that he was a 4th liner on a bad team is BOGUS. You know who else was a 4th liner on the same team? Sean Bergenheim - and I would take Bergenheim over a bunch of guys on this team.
difference is that after their last season one signed a decent contract while the other signed for league minimum on one of the worst teams in the league... there's a reason the had way different offers...

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10-04-2011, 09:51 AM
  #68
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difference is that after their last season one signed a decent contract while the other signed for league minimum on one of the worst teams in the league... there's a reason the had way different offers...
Plenty of other examples.

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10-04-2011, 09:54 AM
  #69
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Plenty of other examples.
Im all ears...

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10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
  #70
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Im all ears...
Jussi Jokinen (waived - key performer on CAR)
Nate Thompson (bit player on NYI - key player for TB in the playoffs last year)
Dominic Moore (4th liner on a terrible 2009 FLA team) seemed to help us and TB in the last 2 years

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10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
  #71
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I'm sad when I look at our 4rth line and see 1) Weber, he's another smurf that should be spending time in AHL at defense, too soft and won't back up his teammates 2) Palushaj, just not reliable defensively and too soft for 4rth line, wich should be all about being tough and physical and responsible in the defenssive zone 3) Engqvist, I just don't see anything good in his game, other than working hard along the boards. Of all three he's the best suited for 4rth line but is relatively missing some of the tools to be a good 4rth line center in the NHL, mostly toughness, grit and physicality.

In conclusion, I can live with smurfs all over our 3 scoring lines, but the fourth line is composed of softies too, and that's a problem to me. I have played hockey in the QJMHL back in the days, am 5'10 and knows how important it is to have bigger guys backing you up when things go bad. Mind you I was one of the smallest guy on many of the teams I played for and I am bigger than the smurfs on the Habs (5'10 180 pounds). I felt a lot mroe confident on the ice when I knew I had tough guys to rely on when a 6'4 220 pounds guy was taking liberties on me. You have to experience it before saying toughness isn't important when you ahve more skills.

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10-04-2011, 10:12 AM
  #72
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I'm sad when I look at our 4rth line and see 1) Weber, he's another smurf that should be spending time in AHL at defense, too soft and won't back up his teammates 2) Palushaj, just not reliable defensively and too soft for 4rth line, wich should be all about being tough and physical and responsible in the defenssive zone 3) Engqvist, I just don't see anything good in his game, other than working hard along the boards. Of all three he's the best suited for 4rth line but is relatively missing some of the tools to be a good 4rth line center in the NHL, mostly toughness, grit and physicality.

In conclusion, I can live with smurfs all over our 3 scoring lines, but the fourth line is composed of softies too, and that's a problem to me. I have played hockey in the QJMHL back in the days, am 5'10 and knows how important it is to have bigger guys backing you up when things go bad. Mind you I was one of the smallest guy on many of the teams I played for and I am bigger than the smurfs on the Habs (5'10 180 pounds). I felt a lot mroe confident on the ice when I knew I had tough guys to rely on when a 6'4 220 pounds guy was taking liberties on me. You have to experience it before saying toughness isn't important when you ahve more skills.
That's one of my points. If we were stacked all throughout our lineup, then I could understand the notion that these types of players couldn't fit, but Engqvist and Weber on our 4th line?

Would have loved to have seen:

Moen-Konopka (or someone similar)-White

And to speak to your experience point, I totally agree. Just yesterday I heard Theo Fleury and Paul McLean say the same thing that younger or smaller player's just have more confidence when these types of guys are on your team - and NO not GOONS, but guys like Rupp, Neil etc.

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10-04-2011, 10:14 AM
  #73
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10-04-2011, 11:30 AM
  #74
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We just have to be patient. Meanhwile our Habs will continue getting killed out there. And Shanahan will make excuses for our players getting killed.

If your 3 children (or Habs) are being bullied, beaten up to a pulp almost everyday
(every game) in the schoolyard and the principal (Shanahan) doesn't do anything to punish the bullies (ex: Malone on Campoli), then what would you do as a parent (GM, coach) to protect your 3 children? ''We just have to be patient??''.

I like your post, I think like this too...Gauthier understands we need tougher/bigger players (Shultz, Tinordi, Conboy) which I really like, and looking forward to those players, BUT...our players (Plekanec, Campoli, Gorges, Subban, Desharnais,etc) need help NOW. We can't afford to be patient.

In order for our smaller players to do their magic (win by playing clean hockey) we need a Chris Neil type. The minimum we should have is: Chris Neil type, Moen, White, and maybe even a slightly better version of Mara. The minimum.
Moen and White...it's just not fair to them.
For example: Moen + White VS Boychuk, Lucic, Chara, Thornton,etc...
We're missing at least one more...a Chris Neil type.
Where to find this Chris Neil type? Ottawa is a good start!


Rhetorial question:
If you were Moen and/or White wouldn't you be more confident with a Chris Neil type in the Habs' lineup?? (or maybe Desharnais and Weber have been taking boxing lessons this summer?!).
How many Chris Neil type's (I won't bold it) do you consider there to be in the league? Who are some of the others?

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Old
10-04-2011, 11:46 AM
  #75
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Again, the debate is endless. But the problem with that debate is that there are mixed signals all over the place. Does Cole brings toughness? Or do we talk about fighters? Do we agree White does? But what about MaxPac who won't fight, but will most likely win all of his board battles? Yet, the mixed signals seems to be coming from the org. but also from some fans as well. So, no need for fighters, no need for those types of players and yet....what was everybody reactions when we acquired Travis Moen? 'Cause again, the same people who are even against a Moen type of player, were probably ecstatic when we acquired him. Are we right to be ecstatic by the type of development a Tinordi could take....but yet be satisfied with having 0 type of d-man of that sort this year. Incredibly happy to see bigger bodies and yet there's no need to acquire 1 or 2 more? Tough to gauge at one point. I know that my point of view will never change. I want my team to not be laughed at. Capable of playing hockey and taking care of their own. A great mix of players that will be able to play any type of hockey that are presented to them. And if it means sending messages when it's totally not going your way....why not. Yet, I don't want those often 'cause it would mean it's not going our way a whole lot....

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