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Flyers' 2011 Training Camp and Pre-Season Schedule - September 17 through October 5

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Old
10-03-2011, 01:26 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
737k for a 6th/7th defensemen? Was he really that bad in camp?
It's bad when his cap hit is guaranteed even if you waive him and you already have Walker, Bartulis, and Gustafsson.

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10-03-2011, 01:27 PM
  #127
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Not at that price. Nearly $2M for a 4th liner is absurd. Overpaying for intangibles is stupid.
Lappy was 1.16 and worth every freaking penny.

I have a feeling Talbot (only 0.59m more) will be as well.

The cap is going up. Player values are going to begin to raise whether you jump on board or not.

I'm perfectly fine with Talbot's money. He's what we need on the 4th line, and if he's the deciding factor (since they were only keeping Shelley around for his locker room role remember) that gets Shelley the hell off this team, then I'm thrilled. You should be too. Talbot is a hell of a hockey player.

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737k for a 6th/7th defensemen? Was he really that bad in camp?
He was pretty bad in my opinion. I noticed plenty of mistakes in games as well.

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10-03-2011, 01:31 PM
  #128
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See bold. You defined Jody Shelley. Or Max Talbot. Or Ian Laperriere. Or Darroll Powe. Or Matt Walker. Or Dan freaking Carcillo.

Zac Rinaldo, by his very definition as an enforcer, is not only a dime a dozen player but is also a member of a dying breed.

What separates the Rinaldos and Shelleys of this world from the Talbots and Laperrieres is defensive play, cool-headedness, smart play, and leadership.

Nodl may not fight, but he throws hits and plays hard, particularly along the walls.

Guess what? He plays decisively, he's cool-headed, and he makes smart plays. No leadership, but he's not exactly a veteran yet.

Nodl is 1000x the NHL player Rinaldo is.

And if you suddenly think Rinaldo has better hands than Nodl because of one nice goal in preseason you're completely off your rocker. Remember Carcillo's nice goals? How much did that do for him exactly?

Nodl is a guaranteed 30 points, smart play, cool-headed play, and defensive abilities.
I prefer Nödl over Rinaldo as well, but there's no way that he "is a guaranteed 30 points". He had 22 last year, playing with Richards for quite a lot of the time. This year, there's quite a lot that speaks for him being on the fourth line (if he is on the roster at all). Even if he ends up on the third line, 30 points is not at all guaranteed from him.

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10-03-2011, 01:32 PM
  #129
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I prefer Nödl over Rinaldo as well, but there's no way that he "is a guaranteed 30 points". He had 22 last year, playing with Richards for quite a lot of the time. This year, there's quite a lot that speaks for him being on the fourth line (if he is on the roster at all). Even if he ends up on the third line, 30 points is not at all guaranteed from him.
I'm betting the house that he roughly ends up around 30 (so 27-33 range) if he's on the third line and not traded to Nashville .

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10-03-2011, 01:37 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Lappy was 1.16 and worth every freaking penny.

I have a feeling Talbot (only 0.59m more) will be as well.

The cap is going up. Player values are going to begin to raise whether you jump on board or not.

I'm perfectly fine with Talbot's money. He's what we need on the 4th line, and if he's the deciding factor (since they were only keeping Shelley around for his locker room role remember) that gets Shelley the hell off this team, then I'm thrilled. You should be too. Talbot is a hell of a hockey player.



He was pretty bad in my opinion. I noticed plenty of mistakes in games as well.
Lappy was hero worshipped for his grit, but that doesn't mean defensive forwards are worth that much. His hit was passable (never cared for the length), but the hit and length for Talbot's contract is awful. This is a team that has an AHL team loaded with potential bottom six forwards. There is no reason to commit that much to a guy who kills penalties. I'll be glad if Shelley is gone but that doesn't mean I should celebrate one mistake getting rid of another.

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10-03-2011, 01:41 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Lappy was hero worshipped for his grit, but that doesn't mean defensive forwards are worth that much. His hit was passable (never cared for the length), but the hit and length for Talbot's contract is awful. This is a team that has an AHL team loaded with potential bottom six forwards. There is no reason to commit that much to a guy who kills penalties. I'll be glad if Shelley is gone but that doesn't mean I should celebrate one mistake getting rid of another.
None of those forwards you speak of will be at Talbots level for years, and the only guys I could see being really good in that role as veterans later in their careers are Holmstrom, Brown, and maybe Testwuide.

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10-03-2011, 01:47 PM
  #132
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None of those forwards you speak of will be at Talbots level for years, and the only guys I could see being really good in that role as veterans later in their careers are Holmstrom, Brown, and maybe Testwuide.
What is Talbot's level anyway? He is a dime a dozen penalty killer that is overrated based on his intangibles. I don't see him bringing much more to the table than Nodl does. He's a decent role player, but not for nearly $2M.

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10-03-2011, 01:53 PM
  #133
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See bold. You defined Jody Shelley. Or Max Talbot. Or Ian Laperriere. Or Darroll Powe. Or Matt Walker. Or Dan freaking Carcillo.

Zac Rinaldo, by his very definition as an enforcer, is not only a dime a dozen player but is also a member of a dying breed.

What separates the Rinaldos and Shelleys of this world from the Talbots and Laperrieres is defensive play, cool-headedness, smart play, and leadership.

Nodl may not fight, but he throws hits and plays hard, particularly along the walls.

Guess what? He plays decisively, he's cool-headed, and he makes smart plays. No leadership, but he's not exactly a veteran yet.

Nodl is 1000x the NHL player Rinaldo is.

And if you suddenly think Rinaldo has better hands than Nodl because of one nice goal in preseason you're completely off your rocker. Remember Carcillo's nice goals? How much did that do for him exactly?

Nodl is a guaranteed 30 points, smart play, cool-headed play, and defensive abilities.
no way Nodl sniffs 30 points playing a 4th line role, no chance. The anti-Rinaldo mindset on this board is funny. He did some stupid things in the past no doubt but the coaching staff has told him what he needs to do to stay in the big leagues and he has listened so far. He hasn't done stupid things (like Shelley) and he's gotten in shape like the coaching staff has asked.

Don't be surprised when the far inferior Rinaldo puts Nodl in the press box or worse. I'm not sure what Nodl has done to deserve such fan fare but I'd like what you guys are smoking. Nodl may throw hits but they don't do anything, they don't create turnovers, he doesn't get people annoyed, doesn't generate momentum...he may get the puck but doesn't create anything. I'm not saying Rinaldo is going to go out there and score goals because he certainly is not...his role is to skate hard, throw the body hard, drop the gloves sometimes, be an agitator and draw some penalties. I saw more emotion and better hits in one preseason from Rinaldo than I've seen from Nodl in 3 years.

Rinaldo is not the dying breed, no skate, no hockey ability Shelley is.

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10-03-2011, 05:14 PM
  #134
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Well Matt Read offically made the Flyers:

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Welp, Paul Holmgren just admitted that @read1mat made the #Flyers roster on NHL Network. There's one less question.
-Dave Issac

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10-03-2011, 05:24 PM
  #135
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no way Nodl sniffs 30 points playing a 4th line role, no chance. The anti-Rinaldo mindset on this board is funny. He did some stupid things in the past no doubt but the coaching staff has told him what he needs to do to stay in the big leagues and he has listened so far. He hasn't done stupid things (like Shelley) and he's gotten in shape like the coaching staff has asked.

Don't be surprised when the far inferior Rinaldo puts Nodl in the press box or worse. I'm not sure what Nodl has done to deserve such fan fare but I'd like what you guys are smoking. Nodl may throw hits but they don't do anything, they don't create turnovers, he doesn't get people annoyed, doesn't generate momentum...he may get the puck but doesn't create anything. I'm not saying Rinaldo is going to go out there and score goals because he certainly is not...his role is to skate hard, throw the body hard, drop the gloves sometimes, be an agitator and draw some penalties. I saw more emotion and better hits in one preseason from Rinaldo than I've seen from Nodl in 3 years.

Rinaldo is not the dying breed, no skate, no hockey ability Shelley is.
Rinaldo doesn't have hockey ability either. Skating and hitting is not hockey ability. To have hockey ability, you have to have real puck skills...shooting, passing, scoring, checking, defense. I'm not saying he wakes up every morning and tries to eat a rock for breakfast, but all he has proven thus far is that he is doing a good job of not getting suspended. This does not make one an NHL player.

Nodl is a responsible bottom-six forward who can kill penalties. There's a ton more value in that than what Rinaldo brings. Even if Nodl is scratched, and Rinaldo plays, that doesn't necessarily make it a good decision.

At least Shelley can play enforcer. No one is going to be scared to take cheap shots on Giroux and JVR if they have to answer to 5-foot-10 Zac Rinaldo.

Rinaldo will make the roster, and then be sent to the Phantoms. He will get his chances to stick, possibly with 2 or 3 teams, and be a footnote in Flyers history. So no, he is not a dying breed. He's a breed that has literally no NHL presence. If the Flyers did not draft him and sign him, he would be an ECHL player at best.

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10-03-2011, 06:01 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
What is Talbot's level anyway? He is a dime a dozen penalty killer that is overrated based on his intangibles. I don't see him bringing much more to the table than Nodl does. He's a decent role player, but not for nearly $2M.
Was Laperriere a dime-a-dozen hockey player? I'm expecting similar from Talbot.

You should know that there aren't many Laperrieres in this league. Similarly there are not that many Talbots. Maybe my expectations of him are lofty, but he's the kind of player that gets more and more effective with age in terms of doing the little things necessary to help a team win.

Just because they are utility players does not mean all utility players are made equally or stand at equal footing.

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Well Matt Read offically made the Flyers:

-Dave Issac
That was a good decision but not shocking. I'm hoping for a Bozak-esque third liner without the Bozak hype or pricetag. That signing is already looking like a huge organizational win.

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Rinaldo doesn't have hockey ability either. Skating and hitting is not hockey ability. To have hockey ability, you have to have real puck skills...shooting, passing, scoring, checking, defense. I'm not saying he wakes up every morning and tries to eat a rock for breakfast, but all he has proven thus far is that he is doing a good job of not getting suspended. This does not make one an NHL player.

Nodl is a responsible bottom-six forward who can kill penalties. There's a ton more value in that than what Rinaldo brings. Even if Nodl is scratched, and Rinaldo plays, that doesn't necessarily make it a good decision.

At least Shelley can play enforcer. No one is going to be scared to take cheap shots on Giroux and JVR if they have to answer to 5-foot-10 Zac Rinaldo.

Rinaldo will make the roster, and then be sent to the Phantoms. He will get his chances to stick, possibly with 2 or 3 teams, and be a footnote in Flyers history. So no, he is not a dying breed. He's a breed that has literally no NHL presence. If the Flyers did not draft him and sign him, he would be an ECHL player at best.
Quoted for emphasis. This is literally EVERYTHING that needs to be said about Rinaldo, his game, his role on the Flyers, and his future in the NHL.

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10-03-2011, 06:40 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Rinaldo doesn't have hockey ability either. Skating and hitting is not hockey ability. To have hockey ability, you have to have real puck skills...shooting, passing, scoring, checking, defense. I'm not saying he wakes up every morning and tries to eat a rock for breakfast, but all he has proven thus far is that he is doing a good job of not getting suspended. This does not make one an NHL player.



ya, he has absolutely no hockey ability at all

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10-03-2011, 06:42 PM
  #138
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ya, he has absolutely no hockey ability at all
I've seen prettier goals from Carcillo, Asham, and Shelley, all within the last two seasons.

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10-03-2011, 06:43 PM
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I've seen prettier goals from Carcillo, Asham, and Shelley, all within the last two seasons.
Shelley? no. Carcillo and Asham may have scored a few nice ones....but they've also been in the league way longer than rinaldo


I'm not saying Rinaldo is a great player, but GKJ saying he has no hockey ability at all is not true

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10-03-2011, 06:57 PM
  #140
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Shelley? no. Carcillo and Asham may have scored a few nice ones....but they've also been in the league way longer than rinaldo


I'm not saying Rinaldo is a great player, but GKJ saying he has no hockey ability at all is not true
I think it really depends on what your definition of hockey ability is. He scored 3 goals in the AHL playing on the 3rd line. To put that into perspective, Garrett Klotz scored 2 goals his first full year playing on the 4th line. Until he starts doing more than hitting people, Rinaldo wont do much in the NHL. There are way to many players that can do what he does. Way to many.

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10-03-2011, 07:04 PM
  #141
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I'm not saying Rinaldo is a great player, but GKJ saying he has no hockey ability at all is not true
And I'm sure you'll follow this up with all the other spectacular goals he scored solely based on his skill. If you can find them. I'm sure one other of those 27 goals he had in 3 full years in junior had to be half as good as this one. Or one of the 3 goals he had in 60 AHL games. Maybe he does have the skills. The NHL isn't the place to find them though, and he didn't in the OHL or AHL either.

Darroll Powe is 2 for 3 in his career in penalty shots, but in almost any given situation, he had nearly no puck skills, couldn't make a backhand play (not even a pass), and blew almost any opportunity in front of the net during the process of play. I'm sure if Rinaldo plays 82 games, he'll bang in a few as well. It's called puck luck.

I actually specifically pointed this goal out in another thread, citing when Carcillo scored a nice goal against Chris Osgood in pre-season. People claimed it was proof that Carcillo had the skills needed to be a successful top-9 forward, until increasing evidence came forward (which was just about the rest of his career) that he didn't.

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10-03-2011, 07:12 PM
  #142
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Shelley? no.
Uhh yeah I think so.


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10-03-2011, 07:21 PM
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I doubt Shelley is much of a deterrent for opposing players. They just choose not to fight him. It's a dumb corollary and has been for years. Now say someone takes a cheep shot at giroux, you don't think rinaldo is going to try to take out that player or the best player on that team during the remainder of the game? The old guys understood, you mess with our best players, you just put a bullseye on your teams best player. Not, oooh, we'll have our big useless fighter fight your useless fighter and prove something by proxy.

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10-03-2011, 07:32 PM
  #144
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I doubt Shelley is much of a deterrent for opposing players. They just choose not to fight him. It's a dumb corollary and has been for years. Now say someone takes a cheep shot at giroux, you don't think rinaldo is going to try to take out that player or the best player on that team during the remainder of the game? The old guys understood, you mess with our best players, you just put a bullseye on your teams best player. Not, oooh, we'll have our big useless fighter fight your useless fighter and prove something by proxy.
The one Ottawa game last year serves notice to where Jody Shelley comes in. Not that he's worth the money, but your theory is a good way to get someone suspended. There's a reason they're 'the old guys.'

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10-04-2011, 01:02 AM
  #145
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I view this anti-Rinaldo view in the same light as the anti-Downie sentiment that existed. As a teenager they were "crazy" and so fans assume they cannot mature and turn on them. Rinaldo does not have any way near the talent Downie did, but he can be a nhl role player.

Nodl is just a nhl role player as well, likely to be staring in the KHL in 5 years. Nodl will just be a footnote in Flyers history along with so many others who contributed in the bottom half of the lineup and are now out of the league. (Thorensen is a similar comparison).

Betts (according to some such as BSH) is a key fourth line player because they like him. If he was such a key penalty killer, he would not have been on a try-out two years ago.

There is nothing wrong with a player like Rinaldo, who can bring energy and maybe stick on the fourth line for a few years until his size and play possibly lead to injuries and the rest of his career in the minors. There will be many more "footnotes" who contribute to the team in the future.

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10-04-2011, 07:40 AM
  #146
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Shelly had 2 nice goals against us a few years back. Thats why he was signed after all.


On a different note, did you guys see the HNL center ice interview with Homer where he mentioned that the Flyers tried to sign Read a few years ago already? He said they brought him to a playoff game against the Habs and tried to convince him to leave college early, but he said that BS was building a new arena and he wanted to get his degree first. I have to hand it to whoever our college scout was. He obviously saw a few years ago what we saw in the preseason.

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10-04-2011, 08:02 AM
  #147
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I'm betting the house that he roughly ends up around 30 (so 27-33 range) if he's on the third line and not traded to Nashville .
If Nodl is playing on the 3rd line ahead of Read that's a huge mistake.

Nodl is not one of out top 20. He should be traded or waived at this point.

Since he's turned pro he's had one month where he's shown any kind of offense (last November).

He doesn't bring enough other stuff to the table to make up for zero offensive game.

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10-04-2011, 09:21 AM
  #148
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If Nodl is playing on the 3rd line ahead of Read that's a huge mistake.

Nodl is not one of out top 20. He should be traded or waived at this point.

Since he's turned pro he's had one month where he's shown any kind of offense (last November).

He doesn't bring enough other stuff to the table to make up for zero offensive game.
You're going to throw away a perfectly good NHLer on a hunch that Read is better?

Forgot Nodl's one good offensive month, Read has had NONE.

I know you like Read's offensive potential, but what if he's just another preseason flare out?

Then you just got rid of a third line winger for somebody who couldn't cut it. If you waive Nodl just to put Read in his place, Read better drop 50 because he's definitely not going to be as defensively responsible as Nodl while chipping in offensively.

I'm a huge Read fan, but until Read has proven anything more than a few preseason games of offense, he has no right to suddenly be deemed better than Nodl.

Note that he's also a couple years older than Nodl, and a hefty chunk of the forwards on our roster for that matter.

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10-04-2011, 09:23 AM
  #149
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You're going to throw away a perfectly good NHLer on a hunch that Read is better?

Forgot Nodl's one good offensive month, Read has had NONE.

I know you like Read's offensive potential, but what if he's just another preseason flare out?

Then you just got rid of a third line winger for somebody who couldn't cut it. If you waive Nodl just to put Read in his place, Read better drop 50 because he's definitely not going to be as defensively responsible as Nodl while chipping in offensively.

I'm a huge Read fan, but until Read has proven anything more than a few preseason games of offense, he has no right to suddenly be deemed better than Nodl.

Note that he's also a couple years older than Nodl, and a hefty chunk of the forwards on our roster for that matter.
At least he isn't betting his house on it

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10-04-2011, 09:28 AM
  #150
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At least he isn't betting his house on it
I'm betting on what is basically proven. He's betting on an unknown.

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