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Strength of CIS hockey?

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Old
11-16-2010, 11:18 AM
  #26
Hollywood3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puck passion View Post
Hey Blue.
Just a few more thoughts on this....
A mix of players from the University of Saskatchewan and University of Regina defeated Team Canada's national junior team last December prior to the world junior's. The CIS team included U of S Huskie players like Steven DaSilva, Kyle Bortis, Brennan Bosch and Chris Durand, who either posted decent numbers in the CHL or, in a couple of cases, were at one time maybe considered for Canada's U-17 or U-18 squads. There may be different reasons why these guys aren't playing pro — ranging from their skating, to lack of size, to lack of toughness, or whatever — but that doesn't mean that they're not very good hockey players in their own right. Alberta, New Brunswick, St. Mary's, St. FX, Acadia and Calgary are among the other CIS teams who have players with pretty impressive major junior pedigree, who were some of the best players on their CHL teams or even among the top players in the WHL or OHL, as all-stars or whatever.
CIS hockey continues to be Canada's best-kept secret. It often gets lost in the shuffle in Canada's ever-saturated hockey market.
Also, in the lockout year the Manitoba Bisons split a pair of games against Team Canada.

One other point: Due to exams the CIS teams take December off. So when these games are played it is usually without any preparation on their part and many players have been off skates for a week or two by game time.

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11-16-2010, 11:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
Also, in the lockout year the Manitoba Bisons split a pair of games against Team Canada.
And that was arguably the best Junior team Canada has ever iced...although if I remember correctly a number of Canada's best players didn't play.

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12-02-2010, 04:03 PM
  #28
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Been over and over this thread, you make really good observations, because it is hard to prove CIS is better than CHL definitively..Yes I know, I know, before you all string me up, I like it better too, I live and breathe CIS hockey, but I know what he is saying here. It is hard to see the actual proof. I like what ALpine says, he said it here and he said it last year when AUS Fan created a similar thread. And we constantly, constantly come up with reasons ( I dare not say "excuses" about why the CIS doesn't win those matches against the Canadian Junior Squad) Cmon guys, if we are really as good as you say, and that much better than junior, shouldn't we be pasting them every time? We didn't have our best players, ( why wasn't that AUS Allstar team suitable? who else did we need?) they didn't give us Marc Andre Fluery, (No they only gave us the next three best goalies in the junior world, ) We didn't get time to practice, We were playing too rough and told to tone it down, so we lost cuz we couldn't knock them around. If you were playing a pro team with an AUS Allstar team going to the Universaide or something would you want your guys knocked to smithereens just so the pros could prove a point? Face it fellas it is an emotional attachment we have to this league, yes, players leave junior and either go pro or go to university, just because it is a step AFTER doesn't necessarily make it better. Some guys play Junior A Tier II after Major junior too, some guys play Industrial, some guys don't play. Remember that game in 03?, when Bergeron blew the doors off the AUS defenceman in the foot race, beat him by 10 strides and scored on the play? there was the story between these two levels. Our guys are older, smarter, and stronger someone said. True. Also fatter, noticeably heavier than those junior guys and don't tell me it is muscle. Those guys are in game shape when they are playing Tier I Jr. I know it is only 5% that make it to the NHL from Junior, but that 5% of those guys who do, walk on and make those teams and play ten years, some become superstars, we can count the guys on one hand that play CIS and do the same. It doesn't even begin to compare as a developmental league in that sense. But it is like Alpine says, apples and oranges, I say they do some things well, and so does the CIS. The CIS is "better" is some things, they are "better" in others, The CIS would win some games, maybe most, they'd win some too? maybe most, maybe not. This whole debate every time I hear it I go back to being a kid in PEI, 1972 ,in early September, and what We (Canada) were saying about the Russians. I learned that later I'll admit, but at the time I clearly remember how we were going to trounce them, everyone else told me too! How could they possibly be better? they had no NHLer's, not even AHL'ers (as if they could), they had no amatuer supporting leagues, they hadn't won in all those years we smoked them in the worlds, which oh by the way didn't mean anything anyway, the NHL was where it was at. They had no rinks, no equipment, they had an ugly team trainer, they had funny looking numbers and names, they weren't tough enough, they couldn't fight, they had no goalies, no fans... goes on and on.

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Old
12-04-2010, 10:11 AM
  #29
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Better is like beauty.... in the eye of the beholder.
I've been lucky as a hockey fan.
I got to see the 2006 Mem Cup with every game being sold out in 2006 the Quebec/Moncton final........I didn't think the emotion in the Coliseum would ever be surpassed. I got to see the 2007 U-Cup with more than 6.000 in 2 OT Final UdeM vs UNB.
I got to see one of the best Uni games ever in 2008 with Alberta and UNB in the U-Cup final.
I got to see the the Jr A regional championship game in 2009 with Dieppe and Summerside going into 2 OT in a more than sold out J-Louis.
I got to see the 2010 Q championship series in sold out buildings in Saint John and Moncton with fans making the 90 minute drive back and forth with the cars decked out and team flags hanging out windows. That emotion INMHO was higher than the 2006 Mem Cup
What's better?
All levels have thier place and all are good for different reasons.
Yes different players in different places becuse of different reasons.
Apples and Oranges. All good food yet different
Those are examples in only 5 years. I just hope that my hockey experience as a fan can continue.
What's better you decide..........I like it all.
Avatar change........why?..............Because the Cats are the reigning Q champs.


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03-12-2011, 10:03 AM
  #30
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Just wanted to add my $0.02 on this topic...

I'm a big major junior fan, and the Vancouver Giants have given me a few good years, including a Memorial Cup, and a World Junior tournament.

While UBC is my CIS option, I live out in the burbs, so driving all the way out to the campus to see a game that might have only 100 other people in attendnace isn't that attractive, which is unfortunate, given their nice new arena.

However, if I'm able to watch some University Cup games on TSN, I can't turn it off. I think it's great hockey, and wish it got a higher profile in Canada, especially out here. But that's the problem being in an area with the Canucks, Giants, Bruins, Heat and three Jr. A teams.

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03-12-2011, 11:55 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko604 View Post
Just wanted to add my $0.02 on this topic...

I'm a big major junior fan, and the Vancouver Giants have given me a few good years, including a Memorial Cup, and a World Junior tournament.

While UBC is my CIS option, I live out in the burbs, so driving all the way out to the campus to see a game that might have only 100 other people in attendnace isn't that attractive, which is unfortunate, given their nice new arena.

However, if I'm able to watch some University Cup games on TSN, I can't turn it off. I think it's great hockey, and wish it got a higher profile in Canada, especially out here. But that's the problem being in an area with the Canucks, Giants, Bruins, Heat and three Jr. A teams.
Where do you have to drive to to watch junior? If you live in the Vancouver Burbs you must surely drive everywhere You might find it is cheaper, given you have to drive for anything, to attend a game at the UBC campus, probably much easier parking, cheaper ticket price. My experience from many years ago, transforming from the junior to the university game, tells me it takes more than a game. You'll probably not find the excitement you are looking for at your first university game. For example, I remember the Ottawa 67's having a half dozen or so stars that went out East to play at SMU and Dal. When I arrived in Halifax in 1981, couldn't wait to see them, but it was different, something was missing, they didn't stand out the same way. It took a few years, then there is no looking back for most of us.

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03-12-2011, 10:22 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Island Husky View Post
Where do you have to drive to to watch junior? If you live in the Vancouver Burbs you must surely drive everywhere You might find it is cheaper, given you have to drive for anything, to attend a game at the UBC campus, probably much easier parking, cheaper ticket price. My experience from many years ago, transforming from the junior to the university game, tells me it takes more than a game. You'll probably not find the excitement you are looking for at your first university game. For example, I remember the Ottawa 67's having a half dozen or so stars that went out East to play at SMU and Dal. When I arrived in Halifax in 1981, couldn't wait to see them, but it was different, something was missing, they didn't stand out the same way. It took a few years, then there is no looking back for most of us.
Driving to a Giants game is about a 30 minute drive for me as opposed to roughly an hour to get to UBC. I can park for free at Giants games, and the ticket will cost me between $15-20, UBC would be $10, plus however much it costs to park. I also have the problem of none of my friends wanting to see a UBC game.

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03-14-2011, 10:58 PM
  #33
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In a nice event that you normally don't see too much from OUA players, former Laurier forward Mark Voakes has been called up to the AHL. He scored a goal on his first shift and in each of his first 3 games. He has 5 points in 5 games.

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03-15-2011, 12:30 AM
  #34
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CIS hockey is a great to watch.
The problem is that there is no commercial market for collegiate sports in Canada with the possible exception of the Atlantic provinces.
It has nothing to do with the quality of the actual hockey.
It is a best kept secret due to the abscence of fans and media presence.

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03-15-2011, 10:33 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by blackmarketmob View Post
In a nice event that you normally don't see too much from OUA players, former Laurier forward Mark Voakes has been called up to the AHL. He scored a goal on his first shift and in each of his first 3 games. He has 5 points in 5 games.
Good to see another CIS guy do well in the AHL. Hopefully he can stick with the AHL club and perhaps work his way up the food chain.

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03-15-2011, 12:12 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rocko604 View Post
Driving to a Giants game is about a 30 minute drive for me as opposed to roughly an hour to get to UBC. I can park for free at Giants games, and the ticket will cost me between $15-20, UBC would be $10, plus however much it costs to park. I also have the problem of none of my friends wanting to see a UBC game.
I am a long ways from living there, but I have been there a number of times visiting. Free parking in downtown Vancouver, but not on the UBC Campus, at least for a hockey game? that is incredible.

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03-15-2011, 05:52 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Island Husky View Post
I am a long ways from living there, but I have been there a number of times visiting. Free parking in downtown Vancouver, but not on the UBC Campus, at least for a hockey game? that is incredible.
Well, the Giants aren't technically "downtown", but at the PNE grounds, just of the freeway. Parking along Hastings Street is free after 6pm, so I just park there and walk 5-7 minutes. Every time I've parked at UBC, I've had to pay. Same with SFU. Colleges/Universities out here LOVE their parking money.

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10-03-2011, 10:47 AM
  #38
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Is there, somewhere, a list of CIS players who made it to the NHL?

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10-03-2011, 11:06 AM
  #39
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There was always several pages of listing in the CIS men's hockey "year book", but I don't know if that is still online.

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10-03-2011, 11:07 AM
  #40
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The CIS has been keeping a list. I don't know if its published on the Internet anymore. I would suggest you email Marc Belanger(sp), of the CIS, he would know.

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10-03-2011, 01:55 PM
  #41
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I would think that the CIS is a step up from major junior just because of the age/size/speed difference, but I wouldn't really know for sure.

It is a bit of a step down from NCAA D1 hockey though (maybe more comparable to D3?). Most D1 squads start their season with an exhibition game against CIS schools; this year the NCAA teams went a combined 24-4-3 against them.

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10-03-2011, 02:12 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I would think that the CIS is a step up from major junior just because of the age/size/speed difference, but I wouldn't really know for sure.

It is a bit of a step down from NCAA D1 hockey though (maybe more comparable to D3?). Most D1 squads start their season with an exhibition game against CIS schools; this year the NCAA teams went a combined 24-4-3 against them.
No way is CIS comparable to D3. D3 is made up of lower level JrA or JrB players, CIS is Major Junior Grads(low to mid) or mid to high range JrA players(the very highest JrA go D1). Any CIS would destroy the best of D3 teams. I know some very good D3 players and they were nowhere near Major Junior, some were not even close to Jr A.

I am very surprised that the NCAA teams had that much of an advantage over CIS as CIS players are generally older and fairly talented coming from Major Junior. I would have though based on level of play CIS would be just a fraction behind D1, but way ahead of Major Junior. Both D1 and Major Junior only have the advantage of a few select elite players that help prop them up, but D1 is for sure deeper overall. So yah I'd rank them based on level of play as D1, CIS, Major Junior, Junior A.......*wide gap*.......Div 3, JrB. Note that is not their rank based on as a developmental league, CIS has older players they are not as good developmental league as the others, that is strictly a level of play assessment.


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10-03-2011, 03:28 PM
  #43
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I concur with your comment re: D3 teams. CIS is much better.
NCAA D1 teams are made up of the best US talent and some of the best Canadian talent as well (from Junior A). Guys like Kessel, St Louis, Heatley to name a few. If you are playing against BU or BC in a Championship year, they are a potent force. Also, all NCAA players aren't that young. A lot of Canadian Junior A players are 20 when they finish up in Canada and accept the scholarship to an NCAA school.

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10-03-2011, 04:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I would think that the CIS is a step up from major junior just because of the age/size/speed difference, but I wouldn't really know for sure.

It is a bit of a step down from NCAA D1 hockey though (maybe more comparable to D3?). Most D1 squads start their season with an exhibition game against CIS schools; this year the NCAA teams went a combined 24-4-3 against them.
No i would not say its a step up i would say its a step below major jr.

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10-03-2011, 04:56 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
No way is CIS comparable to D3. D3 is made up of lower level JrA or JrB players, CIS is Major Junior Grads(low to mid) or mid to high range JrA players(the very highest JrA go D1). Any CIS would destroy the best of D3 teams. I know some very good D3 players and they were nowhere near Major Junior, some were not even close to Jr A.

I am very surprised that the NCAA teams had that much of an advantage over CIS as CIS players are generally older and fairly talented coming from Major Junior. I would have though based on level of play CIS would be just a fraction behind D1, but way ahead of Major Junior. Both D1 and Major Junior only have the advantage of a few select elite players that help prop them up, but D1 is for sure deeper overall. So yah I'd rank them based on level of play as D1, CIS, Major Junior, Junior A.......*wide gap*.......Div 3, JrB. Note that is not their rank based on as a developmental league, CIS has older players they are not as good developmental league as the others, that is strictly a level of play assessment.
I don't think the elite level of D3 is as bad as you are saying. RIT was still essentially a D3 team in 05-06 (1st year in D1, their frosh may have been D1 recruits, but that's it) when they defeated Waterloo in an exhibition (and lost to a D3 team - Oswego).

That said, the average D3 team is most likely far below the average CIS team, I'll agree with that.

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10-03-2011, 06:52 PM
  #46
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No i would not say its a step up i would say its a step below major jr.
I would also say that CIS is "better" than Major Junior. Obviously, there are NHL calibre players in the CHL, but if the teams played a 7 game series, the CIS would win most times.

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10-03-2011, 09:28 PM
  #47
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There is no one level of team in the CIS or NCAA (1 or 3). Major junior at least has a draft and the leagues attempt some degree of parity. Conversely, CIS and NCAA teams go out to get as good of a team as possible. So both organizations have a wide variety of calibres of teams.

The university teams would destroy junior teams. For one thing, I doubt that you could get a junior team to play regular rules against a university team. The major junior teams have outstanding top-end talent. But the 16 and 17 year-olds on their 3rd and 4th lines would be eaten alive by the 20-21 year olds they would face.

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10-04-2011, 08:50 AM
  #48
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I would also say that CIS is "better" than Major Junior. Obviously, there are NHL calibre players in the CHL, but if the teams played a 7 game series, the CIS would win most times.
While there are some very good teams in the cis i don't think i would go as far as saying every team even the worst would beat any major jr team.If you look at the big picture which includes attendance etc major jr is better for the most part that is not to say cis is a bad leagues its not.

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10-04-2011, 08:54 AM
  #49
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There is no one level of team in the CIS or NCAA (1 or 3). Major junior at least has a draft and the leagues attempt some degree of parity. Conversely, CIS and NCAA teams go out to get as good of a team as possible. So both organizations have a wide variety of calibres of teams.

The university teams would destroy junior teams. For one thing, I doubt that you could get a junior team to play regular rules against a university team. The major junior teams have outstanding top-end talent. But the 16 and 17 year-olds on their 3rd and 4th lines would be eaten alive by the 20-21 year olds they would face.
No cis would not destroy a major jr team it could be a close game but some major jr teams get very good attendance and this could work aginst some cis teams who may get less then 500 fans a game.

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10-04-2011, 09:00 AM
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While there are some very good teams in the cis i don't think i would go as far as saying every team even the worst would beat any major jr team.If you look at the big picture which includes attendance etc major jr is better for the most part that is not to say cis is a bad leagues its not.
We're not debating attendance or marketing of the game - we're talking about the level of hockey on the ice. No one would argue that Major Junior gets more fans and more media coverage because it is the primary player development league for the NHL.

The point several have made, is that once you look past the actual NHL prospects that some MJ teams are lucky enough to have, there are lots of 16 and 17 years olds on those teams who are not going to play competitive hockey after Junior, and aren't good enough to make most CIS teams. The majority of good CIS team rosters (i.e. AUS and CanWest teams in particular) are made up of former Major Junior players who were not fourth line grinders.

NCAA teams also have NHL prospects on their rosters that are not on CIS teams. This past weekend all of the CIS-NCAA games were played in NCAA rinks, with NCAA rules (just ask UNB about "facemask" rules that can lead to game misconducts and goalies you aren't allowed to bump in the crease while trying to score ...). Advantage NCAA.

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