HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Blair Betts, Oskars Bartulis and Matt Walker

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-04-2011, 04:07 PM
  #151
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Positional awareness trumps speed almost any time on the pk. The reason guys like Gagné, Richards and Lappy has been so effective on the pk during their careers, isn't because of their speed, but because they know where to be on the ice to cut off passing lanes and such before they need to go full speed ahead to get there.

Maybe Simmonds or even Rinaldo can become a good pker, but to bet on it before you see it is perhaps not the best thing to do if you're trying to build a team that will compete for the cup.
there is no doubt those guys are great pkers because they have a great awareness in their own zone, however they can put that to use by using their speed to attack the lanes and get the puck. Betts has the mental attributes just not the physical ones, he does not have the ability to win races to the puck, or quickly intercept passes and get quickly into lanes. Plus using 3 of your top 6 guys (richards, carter, giroux, on your pk is just not practical, I like how we now can use 3/4th line guys now.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:12 PM
  #152
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
there is no doubt those guys are great pkers because they have a great awareness in their own zone, however they can put that to use by using their speed to attack the lanes and get the puck. Betts has the mental attributes just not the physical ones, he does not have the ability to win races to the puck, or quickly intercept passes and get quickly into lanes. Plus using 3 of your top 6 guys (richards, carter, giroux, on your pk is just not practical, I like how we now can use 3/4th line guys now.
Lappy wasn't exactly a speed phenomenon in the latter stages of his career. Also, if we don't wanna use our top 6 players on the pk (which I might agree with, depending a bit on who is on the top six and so forth), getting rid of Betts doesn't seem like the logical choice.

Again, I'm not that high on Betts, but I would have liked to see what the guys that are to replace him can do for a little longer before making this decision.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:15 PM
  #153
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Lappy wasn't exactly a speed phenomenon in the latter stages of his career. Also, if we don't wanna use our top 6 players on the pk (which I might agree with, depending a bit on who is on the top six and so forth), getting rid of Betts doesn't seem like the logical choice.

Again, I'm not that high on Betts, but I would have liked to see what the guys that are to replace him can do for a little longer before making this decision.
even getting rid of betts we still do not have to use anyone other than giroux from the top 6.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:23 PM
  #154
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
even getting rid of betts we still do not have to use anyone other than giroux from the top 6.
Well, yeah... but we have a top six consisting of Brière, Jagr, Voracek, JvR (who might in his career turn into a solid pker, but I wouldn't count on it for this season) and Hartnell (who I think might be decent if we're going with 3 forward pairs).

It's not the same as when we had the likes of Gagné, Richards and Carter. Even guys like Knuble and Umberger could be put into this category since they probably would've been on the top six of this team if you somehow could have the 07-08 Knuble and the 11-12 Simmonds on the same team.

I think Simmonds could develop into a pretty decent guy to have on the pk if they try him out on a regular basis, but I would have liked to see him show more of that before ditching Betts. Same goes for guys like Read and Couturier/Schenn. It's one thing to look good on the pk in preseason games, and a whole other thing to do it when the games actually matters.

Edit: Also, as much as I love Giroux, let's see how he does without Richards on the pk. He won't be able to cheat as much as he did last season and still have his ass covered if he's got Read or someone like that out there with him. I don't believe he'll be a train wreck or anything, but I do think the loss of Richards will have a great impact on how Giroux can play the pk, and it might take some time for him to adapt to that.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:29 PM
  #155
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Well, yeah... but we have a top six consisting of Brière, Jagr, Voracek, JvR (who might in his career turn into a solid pker, but I wouldn't count on it for this season) and Hartnell (who I think might be decent if we're going with 3 forward pairs).

It's not the same as when we had the likes of Gagné, Richards and Carter. Even guys like Knuble and Umberger could be put into this category since they probably would've been on the top six of this team if you somehow could have the 07-08 Knuble and the 11-12 Simmonds on the same team.

I think Simmonds could develop into a pretty decent guy to have on the pk if they try him out on a regular basis, but I would have liked to see him show more of that before ditching Betts. Same goes for guys like Read and Couturier/Schenn. It's one thing to look good on the pk in preseason games, and a whole other thing to do it when the games actually matters.
You are talking like betts is a good pker, if you watch video of him on the pk it is aweful, he never wins races, puck battles, or get in lanes. He was good a couple years ago and everyone has given him the benefit of the doubt ever since. Losing richards is a blow to the pk, not losing betts.

Also giroux will be our best pker, take that to the bank. Giroux has everything you want for that role and more, if anything he allowed richards to cheat more.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:39 PM
  #156
chimrichalds18
the key
 
chimrichalds18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
You are talking like betts is a good pker, if you watch video of him on the pk it is aweful, he never wins races, puck battles, or get in lanes. He was good a couple years ago and everyone has given him the benefit of the doubt ever since. Losing richards is a blow to the pk, not losing betts.

Also giroux will be our best pker, take that to the bank. Giroux has everything you want for that role and more, if anything he allowed richards to cheat more.
I'm not sure what you've been watching. Betts is not the fastest skater--you're right--but as it's been pointed out, that's not the most important aspect of PKing. Powe, for instance, was faster than Betts, but he was not as good a PKer because he wasn't as smart as Betts and tended to be out of position every now and then.

As to getting in lanes -- simply not true. Maybe breaking up passes, but what about blocked shots? While we're on that, let's look at our blocked shots leaders from the last two years:

2010-2011

Richards (73)
Betts (72)
Powe (60)
Versteeg (56)
Giroux (44)
Carter (41)

2009-2010

Laperriere (74)
Richards (64)
Betts (63)
Giroux (48)
Powe (40)
Carter (34)

So now all of our best PKers/shot blockers from the last two years--save Giroux--are gone. That's not something that Talbot can fix by himself. It's more important than you seem to realize.

chimrichalds18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:44 PM
  #157
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,557
vCash: 156
Medical science would probably be very interested in seeing what sort of effect an extra 206 blocked shots could have. Talbot should go for it.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:47 PM
  #158
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
I'm not sure what you've been watching. Betts is not the fastest skater--you're right--but as it's been pointed out, that's not the most important aspect of PKing. Powe, for instance, was faster than Betts, but he was not as good a PKer because he wasn't as smart as Betts and tended to be out of position every now and then.

As to getting in lanes -- simply not true. Maybe breaking up passes, but what about blocked shots? While we're on that, let's look at our blocked shots leaders from the last two years:

2010-2011

Richards (73)
Betts (72)
Powe (60)
Versteeg (56)
Giroux (44)
Carter (41)

2009-2010

Laperriere (74)
Richards (64)
Betts (63)
Giroux (48)
Powe (40)
Carter (34)

So now all of our best PKers/shot blockers from the last two years--save Giroux--are gone. That's not something that Talbot can fix by himself. It's more important than you seem to realize.
I would rather have powe on the pk then betts to be honest with you. Blocked shots are important true there is no denying that, but his weaknesses overcome his positives.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:47 PM
  #159
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
Your best PKer is and should be your goalie. People seem to have forgotten that after years of suck.

We have a deep all star veteran blueline, a top 10 goalie, and capable though unproven forwards. Our PK will be fine.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:47 PM
  #160
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
You are talking like betts is a good pker, if you watch video of him on the pk it is aweful, he never wins races, puck battles, or get in lanes. He was good a couple years ago and everyone has given him the benefit of the doubt ever since. Losing richards is a blow to the pk, not losing betts.

Also giroux will be our best pker, take that to the bank. Giroux has everything you want for that role and more, if anything he allowed richards to cheat more.
I think Betts still is solid on the pk, yes. In fact, I'm of the belief that we overused him (and Powe) on the pk last year. They played 3+ minutes per game. Not many forwards have done so since the lockout. I'd have liked to have seen Carter and Nödl out there a little bit to take some of the work load off them. And from what I saw in the preseason, Betts hadn't fallen completely off the chart. Again, I wouldn't have minded if guys like Simmonds and Rinaldo showed that Betts place on the team was unnecessary, but I don't think they've done so yet.

Giroux doesn't have everything I want in a pker. Just to start, he plays with too short of a stick for to be perfect in this sense (it has other benefits though). He is also a bit of a risktaker out on the ice, which can pay off, and when it does he might get a breakaway or something out of it. Other times, it does not.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:49 PM
  #161
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Your best PKer is and should be your goalie. People seem to have forgotten that after years of suck.

We have a deep all star veteran blueline, a top 10 goalie, and capable though unproven forwards. Our PK will be fine.
While Bryzgalov is definitely an upgrade in goal... you might wanna look into his numbers while on the pk.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:58 PM
  #162
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
While Bryzgalov is definitely an upgrade in goal... you might wanna look into his numbers while on the pk.
Or the team he was playing in front of

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 04:58 PM
  #163
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,557
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Or the team he was playing in front of
Actually, Phoenix played a system which is pretty friendly to goalies.

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:01 PM
  #164
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Yeah, a goalie shouldn't complain too much playing behind a Dave Tippett-run defense.

Whatever the hell it was that happened to Phoenix in the playoffs this spring, that might be discussed, but during the season they made a guy like Keith Yandle look almost like a defense-first kind of guy. Not really, but they were good defensively.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:02 PM
  #165
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Actually, Phoenix played a system which is pretty friendly to goalies.
As do we, with nearly 4x the Phoenix defensive talent across the lineup.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:04 PM
  #166
Flyerfan808
Registered User
 
Flyerfan808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honolulu, HI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As do we, with nearly 4x the Phoenix defensive talent across the lineup.
By my calculations it's only 2.76532x the Phoenix defensive talent across the lineup.

Flyerfan808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:04 PM
  #167
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As do we, with nearly 4x the Phoenix defensive talent across the lineup.
Exactly, was it the coyotes system or bryzgalov that made that team. I tend to think the latter. I remember the game we played against them in philly last year and we peppered bryz, he was the only reason they were in the game, their defense didnt lok great to me at all.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:08 PM
  #168
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Exactly, was it the coyotes system or bryzgalov that made that team. I tend to think the latter. I remember the game we played against them in philly last year and we peppered bryz, he was the only reason they were in the game, their defense didnt lok great to me at all.
Well see, this could be a huge debate. Honestly, I am going with system. Do you see their forwards and defense? Their pretty average at best. What they have going for them is a system though. I think this concept will be shown to be true or false this up and coming system. Dont get me wrong, Breezy was good for them, but he didnt single handedly win them every single game. If anything the system helped Breezy out alot.

sa cyred is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:14 PM
  #169
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Well see, this could be a huge debate. Honestly, I am going with system. Do you see their forwards and defense? Their pretty average at best. What they have going for them is a system though. I think this concept will be shown to be true or false this up and coming system. Dont get me wrong, Breezy was good for them, but he didnt single handedly win them every single game. If anything the system helped Breezy out alot.
Bryz carried that team to the playoffs the past 2 years, anyone who argues that is crazy.... watch what happens to them without bryz this year. 99% they will not even sniff the playoffs in the west now without him.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:36 PM
  #170
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,952
vCash: 5792
People honestly thought Shelley was going to be waived?


(Almost) everyone here is a Flyers fan. Have you learned nothing during this time? The Flyers will never go into battle without having the biggest, baddest goon available to them. That's just how it is, and how it's going to be for a long time.

Nodl was never getting waived, not after he just signed a new contract. Laviolette loves him.

Betts, Bartulis, Walker. Contract management. Betts has the best chance of being claimed. If Couturier is staying the whole season, and it looks like he is even though it's clearly the low-percentage play, they have to get rid of someone and Betts has the best chance of being claimed. Bartulis having a low number as well. Problem here is that it leave fewer players to out-perform their cap number.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 05:37 PM
  #171
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Exactly, was it the coyotes system or bryzgalov that made that team. I tend to think the latter. I remember the game we played against them in philly last year and we peppered bryz, he was the only reason they were in the game, their defense didnt lok great to me at all.
Well, it's obviously a bit of both. I mean, that team defense won't be as effective with Mike Smith as their goalie. That much I think should be clear to almost anyone. They gained a lot by having a goalie with as good of rebound control as Bryzgalov has for instance. At the same time, put Bryzgalov behind a team like the Islanders last season and he won't be having quite the same impressive numbers (and no, I don't believe he could have led them to the playoffs).

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 06:01 PM
  #172
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Well, it's obviously a bit of both. I mean, that team defense won't be as effective with Mike Smith as their goalie. That much I think should be clear to almost anyone. They gained a lot by having a goalie with as good of rebound control as Bryzgalov has for instance. At the same time, put Bryzgalov behind a team like the Islanders last season and he won't be having quite the same impressive numbers (and no, I don't believe he could have led them to the playoffs).
The coyotes without bryz will probably finish close to the bottom of the west without any other major roster changes. If this doesnt show he carried the team I do not know what will.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 06:24 PM
  #173
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,021
vCash: 955
None of the moves surprise me on their own.

Betts is a shell of his former self. Without the shoulder strength to be a solid faceoff guy, his value as a centre is limited.

Bartulis has never impressed and, given how he has been used over the last two seasons, that's not a shock.

Walker is a depth guy, so no big loss if someone claims him.

The only strange thing is leaving the team with 6 defensemen, one being Lilja. If Bart and Walker both get claimed, I guess they recall Gus.

__________________
I deride your truth handling abilities
CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 06:27 PM
  #174
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,952
vCash: 5792
Bartulis is a curious case. I'll never forget after 10 NHL games, Holmgren signed him to an extension and declared him and NHL player. Of course, Ryan Parent was also an NHL player at Holmgren's whim once upon a time as well. Holmgren just falls in love with guys way too fast when they impress early.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2011, 06:28 PM
  #175
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Pretty sure they are hoping walker gets claimed, could be why they are pumping him up in the media so much. Sure he has played well in preseason, but he is still a 6th dman and you cannot pay 1.7mill for that, gus or bart can step into that for less.

Snipsnap12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.