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Leverage LTIR or Daily Savings?

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Old
10-06-2011, 07:27 AM
  #26
might2mash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
No, I'm not misunderstanding anything. I know how the Cap works inside and out. He clearly said if your 10K under for the first half of the Season, you then can go over by 10K the second half. That is incorrect. You can't go over with the exception of the LTIR exemption.
Again, you're trying to take what he said literally then rather than just trying to understand what he meant. If you are 10k under the daily cap every day for the first half of the season, you can add 20k to that roster (and thus be 10k over what the limit was on day 1) in the second half and still be compliant.

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10-06-2011, 08:18 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
With all due respect you misunderstood what I said, "but for the 35+ rule" meaning if not for the 35+ rule he could merely retire... I agree 100% on what you said there... 35+ players have to say on the books as Cap hits no matter what.
Oh ok, my bad. Misunderstood your meaning.

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10-06-2011, 08:20 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
Again, you're trying to take what he said literally then rather than just trying to understand what he meant. If you are 10k under the daily cap every day for the first half of the season, you can add 20k to that roster (and thus be 10k over what the limit was on day 1) in the second half and still be compliant.
I can't see his posts, but you're spot on.

It's not going over the "cap", it's going over the "daily limit", which is NOT a cap. It's an average, that is "soft".

If I'm taking this a step further, IIRC, it is also calculated daily for ESCROW purposes. Whatever that means haha.

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10-06-2011, 08:29 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
If I'm taking this a step further, IIRC, it is also calculated daily for ESCROW purposes. Whatever that means haha.
Some dumb revenue/retirement/pension crap no doubt.

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10-06-2011, 08:41 AM
  #30
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Let me try using a chart...and even simpler numbers:
$200 yearly cap and the season is 10 days long = $20 a day "daily limit"

You're spending $19 a day on your team.

Day 1 2 3 4 5
Spent 19 19 19 19 19
Daily Limit 20 20 20 20 20

So at this point, halfway through the year, you've spent $95 dollars of your $200 yearly cap. That leaves you with $105 left to spend over the next 5 days. That equates to $21 a day.

Day 6 7 8 9 10
Spent 21 21 21 21 21
Daily Limit 20 20 20 20 20

So if you simply look at the daily figures, we are "over" for 5 days. But if you add up 19+19+19+19+19+21+21+21+21+21 it comes to $200.

And if we had waited even LONGER than 5 days before deciding to spend our remaining money, we could have spent even more per day, because we are dividing remaining money, by less days. This is proration, and this is how it can APPEAR that someone exceeds a daily cap, when in reality, they are merely spending all of their alloted $200, just spread out differently. So if I DON'T spend money early, I "bank" it, to spend it later. You can't however just go and start spending $21 a day right off the bat and intend to be under it later.

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10-06-2011, 08:57 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Let me try using a chart...and even simpler numbers:
$200 yearly cap and the season is 10 days long = $20 a day "daily limit"

You're spending $19 a day on your team.

Day 1 2 3 4 5
Spent 19 19 19 19 19
Daily Limit 20 20 20 20 20

So at this point, halfway through the year, you've spent $95 dollars of your $200 yearly cap. That leaves you with $105 left to spend over the next 5 days. That equates to $21 a day.

Day 6 7 8 9 10
Spent 21 21 21 21 21
Daily Limit 20 20 20 20 20

So if you simply look at the daily figures, we are "over" for 5 days. But if you add up 19+19+19+19+19+21+21+21+21+21 it comes to $200.

And if we had waited even LONGER than 5 days before deciding to spend our remaining money, we could have spent even more per day, because we are dividing remaining money, by less days. This is proration, and this is how it can APPEAR that someone exceeds a daily cap, when in reality, they are merely spending all of their alloted $200, just spread out differently. So if I DON'T spend money early, I "bank" it, to spend it later. You can't however just go and start spending $21 a day right off the bat and intend to be under it later.
That's not how it works. The Daily amount you get to spend never changes. Regardless of how much Cap space you bank. Here's how proration works. Using your 20 dollars a day example. A player who costs 3 dollars a day at the start of the Season, later in the Season costs less to add such as at the trade deadline. That player may only cost $1.25 at that time. That's how proration costs. That's how teams are able to fit in a higher Cap hit player later in the year. The amount you get to spend per day, doesn't change. There are also other issues such as tagging space that come into play if your adding a player on a multi year deal versus a player on an expiring contract.

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10-06-2011, 09:26 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's not how it works. The Daily amount you get to spend never changes. Regardless of how much Cap space you bank. Here's how proration works. Using your 20 dollars a day example. A player who costs 3 dollars a day at the start of the Season, later in the Season costs less to add such as at the trade deadline. That player may only cost $1.25 at that time. That's how proration costs. That's how teams are able to fit in a higher Cap hit player later in the year. The amount you get to spend per day, doesn't change. There are also other issues such as tagging space that come into play if your adding a player on a multi year deal versus a player on an expiring contract.
Guess we have to quote you so DU knows you've responded.

I'm barely literate when it comes to legal documents when they're written in Swedish, so don't expect me to contribute much in a discussion regarding the CBA.

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10-06-2011, 10:05 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Guess we have to quote you so DU knows you've responded.

I'm barely literate when it comes to legal documents when they're written in Swedish, so don't expect me to contribute much in a discussion regarding the CBA.
A player's daily cost NEVER EVER EVER EVER changes. Ever. What changes is for how long you are responsible for paying that player. AKA how is that player's pie being split up.

It's an issue of semantics. As defined in the CBA there is "Actual Club Salary" which is calculated daily (this is what I'm discussing), and there is "Average Club Salary" which is the yearly number.

VanSciver is saying the same thing I am really. A $3 player doesn't cost any less, ever. He may cost the team less, but HE does not cost less. Which is determined by how many days you are taking responsibility for his contract.

You can come to the same conclusions whether you use yearly numbrs or daily. Some people like the daily numbers because some feel it better shows how you arrive at the conclusion.

So do you want to view the yearly numbers or the daily ones? Do you want the 10 piece puzzle or the 100 piece one? Some people want the simplicity, some people want the details.

The point remains...it is beneficial if the Flyers do not utilize LTIR, and truly stay under the cap, because it will allow them to add a prorated contract later.

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10-06-2011, 10:38 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
A player's daily cost NEVER EVER EVER EVER changes. Ever. What changes is for how long you are responsible for paying that player. AKA how is that player's pie being split up.

It's an issue of semantics. As defined in the CBA there is "Actual Club Salary" which is calculated daily (this is what I'm discussing), and there is "Average Club Salary" which is the yearly number.

VanSciver is saying the same thing I am really. A $3 player doesn't cost any less, ever. He may cost the team less, but HE does not cost less. Which is determined by how many days you are taking responsibility for his contract.

You can come to the same conclusions whether you use yearly numbrs or daily. Some people like the daily numbers because some feel it better shows how you arrive at the conclusion.

So do you want to view the yearly numbers or the daily ones? Do you want the 10 piece puzzle or the 100 piece one? Some people want the simplicity, some people want the details.

The point remains...it is beneficial if the Flyers do not utilize LTIR, and truly stay under the cap, because it will allow them to add a prorated contract later.
The first point is to understand that there is a difference between Cap hit and cap charge. They are two different things. For example, Kris Versteeg did not cost the FLyers his full Cap hit last year, due to being acquired mid season.

Your analogy that if you save 10 dollars a day in the first half, that means you can spend 10 dollars more than the limit is incorrect.

Leaving any LTIR situations out of it, to keep it simple. The Upper Limit is 64.3M. I beleive this Season is 185 days. So the daily limit per day, is $347,567.

If a player has a Cap hit of 3M, he has a daily Cap hit of $16,216. So if you acquire that player's SPC with 60 days left in the Season, you need $972,972 of available Cap space at that time to do so. So you don't get to spend more because you banked the Cap space, the player's Cap charge to you is smaller. Again the difference between Cap hit and Cap charge. If you call up a player from the Minors for a week, with a Cap hit of 500K, he doesn't cost you 500K on the Cap.


Placing a player on LTIR will have no effect on the Flyers ability to acquire a player on a prorated contract later in the Season.

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Old
10-06-2011, 11:26 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
A player's daily cost NEVER EVER EVER EVER changes. Ever. What changes is for how long you are responsible for paying that player. AKA how is that player's pie being split up.

It's an issue of semantics. As defined in the CBA there is "Actual Club Salary" which is calculated daily (this is what I'm discussing), and there is "Average Club Salary" which is the yearly number.

VanSciver is saying the same thing I am really. A $3 player doesn't cost any less, ever. He may cost the team less, but HE does not cost less. Which is determined by how many days you are taking responsibility for his contract.

You can come to the same conclusions whether you use yearly numbrs or daily. Some people like the daily numbers because some feel it better shows how you arrive at the conclusion.

So do you want to view the yearly numbers or the daily ones? Do you want the 10 piece puzzle or the 100 piece one? Some people want the simplicity, some people want the details.

The point remains...it is beneficial if the Flyers do not utilize LTIR, and truly stay under the cap, because it will allow them to add a prorated contract later.
It would be beneficial to see those dollars accumulate and spend under the cap.....EXCEPT.....For the entire year based on our current team, we would spend $65,000 under the cap. So - what is the point of staying under when you are so close to the cap? There is no benefit at the deadline since regardless of how you do the math, there is no possible way we can bring in a higher priced player for $65,000 a year. Based on todays salaries, for game 1 we will bank 1/82 of $65,000 = $792. Why not go over the limit by 1.1 million and keep guys rather than trying to stay under the cap by so little? Now if Walker was sent down/Shelley waiver etc to get us significantly under the cap, then the banked dollars becomes very beneficial.

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10-06-2011, 11:46 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
It would be beneficial to see those dollars accumulate and spend under the cap.....EXCEPT.....For the entire year based on our current team, we would spend $65,000 under the cap. So - what is the point of staying under when you are so close to the cap? There is no benefit at the deadline since regardless of how you do the math, there is no possible way we can bring in a higher priced player for $65,000 a year. Based on todays salaries, for game 1 we will bank 1/82 of $65,000 = $792. Why not go over the limit by 1.1 million and keep guys rather than trying to stay under the cap by so little? Now if Walker was sent down/Shelley waiver etc to get us significantly under the cap, then the banked dollars becomes very beneficial.
Exactly. If the Flyers were to place Lappy on LTIR thier Upper Limit would essentially be 65.4, minus the 65K.

Placing Lappy on LTIR would increase the team's ability to add a player at the deadline. And with no bonus cushion in play this year, there is no worry about bonus overage penalties onto next year's Cap.

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10-06-2011, 12:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
It would be beneficial to see those dollars accumulate and spend under the cap.....EXCEPT.....For the entire year based on our current team, we would spend $65,000 under the cap. So - what is the point of staying under when you are so close to the cap? There is no benefit at the deadline since regardless of how you do the math, there is no possible way we can bring in a higher priced player for $65,000 a year. Based on todays salaries, for game 1 we will bank 1/82 of $65,000 = $792. Why not go over the limit by 1.1 million and keep guys rather than trying to stay under the cap by so little? Now if Walker was sent down/Shelley waiver etc to get us significantly under the cap, then the banked dollars becomes very beneficial.
Fair point. I'm just really discussing the pro's and con's of utilizing LTIR and the benefits of being under the cap.

And if I'm nitpicking, it wouldn't be 1/82nd. The season is calculated by days not games. So it's something like 162 or something. Unimportant however.

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10-06-2011, 04:03 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Fair point. I'm just really discussing the pro's and con's of utilizing LTIR and the benefits of being under the cap.

And if I'm nitpicking, it wouldn't be 1/82nd. The season is calculated by days not games. So it's something like 162 or something. Unimportant however.
With no bonus cushion this year, there are no cons to using LTIR. I beleive that this Season is 185 days.

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10-07-2011, 09:22 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
You can't send down 35+ contracts. Well you could, but you'd still take the cap hit for everything except, I believe, 100k.

In the simplest of terms, by definition if you are using LTIR AT ALL, you are not banking cap space. LTIR means you are exceeding the cap, which means you aren't under it, which means you aren't banking anything.
Thanks. That's about what I figured.

Going back to the original question, I'm not sure they're able to bank enough cap space to make it worth it. Unless they're willing to waive Shelley, that is. If they feel like their optimal roster is one with Schenn and Walker here, I'd rather they LTIR Lappy rather than leave Schenn down and replace Walker with say Bartulis...it's not worth the little space they could bank.

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10-08-2011, 01:49 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's not how it works. The Daily amount you get to spend never changes. Regardless of how much Cap space you bank. Here's how proration works. Using your 20 dollars a day example. A player who costs 3 dollars a day at the start of the Season, later in the Season costs less to add such as at the trade deadline. That player may only cost $1.25 at that time. That's how proration costs. That's how teams are able to fit in a higher Cap hit player later in the year. The amount you get to spend per day, doesn't change. There are also other issues such as tagging space that come into play if your adding a player on a multi year deal versus a player on an expiring contract.

You are wrong and that shows that you really don't understand how computing the cap actually works. I was going to stay away from this "pissing contest" but it's been bugging me since I've read this. Sorry but you are DEFINITELY wrong in this. I'll expand on our little $200 and 10 day season example and show you how it's REALLY done.

Before the season begins, teams start with $200 in their "bank". You divide the amount of money you have remaining in your "bank" by the number of days remaining in the season and that's the MAXIMUM amount that you can spend on player salaries ON A DAILY BASIS. when you add up all the players "single day cap hit" it cannot exceed this number (in our example it's $20 for day 1).

In our example, on day 1 we spend $19 on player salaries and thus, $19 is subtracted from our "bank" leaving us with $181. our "maximum daily cap limit" is recomputed and that $181 is now divided by 9 (the number of days remaining in the season). Our new "max daily amount" is now $20.1111111111.

On day 2 we spend another $19 and again this amount is removed from our "bank" bringing us down to $162 for the remaining 8 days. Again our "max daily cap" is recomputed and now it's $20.25 At this point in time, the average daily cap cost of our roster is just $19. We COULD, if we wanted to do so, add a player to our roster after day 2 that has an average daily cap hit of $1.25 or we could just keep "banking" this cap space.

Skipping all the way down to day 5, we again have a roster with a daily cap hit of $19 and again remove that amount from our "bank" leaving us with $105 left for the rest of the season. For the remaining days of the season (days 6 through 10) our maximum daily cap limit is recalucaled by taking the amount we have in our bank ($105) and dividing it by the number of days remaining in the season (5). $105/5day = $21/day max cap hit. This enables us to add a player with a $2 daily cap hit for the remainder of the season.


This is EXACTLY what the league does on a daily basis for every single team in the league. They use computers to do it because there are a lot of players moving in and out of each teams roster and the impact of players on LTIR have to also be accounted for but suffice it to say that our little example IS in fact the way it's done by the league. The daily amount you get to spend DOES change every single day. It's recomputed after every single day and every team gets a new number EVERY SINGLE DAY.


LTIR gets a little "funky" but I can add it to our little example if everyone is really THAT interested (I honestly don't WANT to have to do it but if another pissing contest erupts and more misinformation is spewed I probably won't be able to stop myself).

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10-08-2011, 05:14 PM
  #41
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You are wrong and that shows that you really don't understand how computing the cap actually works. I was going to stay away from this "pissing contest" but it's been bugging me since I've read this. Sorry but you are DEFINITELY wrong in this. I'll expand on our little $200 and 10 day season example and show you how it's REALLY done.

Before the season begins, teams start with $200 in their "bank". You divide the amount of money you have remaining in your "bank" by the number of days remaining in the season and that's the MAXIMUM amount that you can spend on player salaries ON A DAILY BASIS. when you add up all the players "single day cap hit" it cannot exceed this number (in our example it's $20 for day 1).

In our example, on day 1 we spend $19 on player salaries and thus, $19 is subtracted from our "bank" leaving us with $181. our "maximum daily cap limit" is recomputed and that $181 is now divided by 9 (the number of days remaining in the season). Our new "max daily amount" is now $20.1111111111.

On day 2 we spend another $19 and again this amount is removed from our "bank" bringing us down to $162 for the remaining 8 days. Again our "max daily cap" is recomputed and now it's $20.25 At this point in time, the average daily cap cost of our roster is just $19. We COULD, if we wanted to do so, add a player to our roster after day 2 that has an average daily cap hit of $1.25 or we could just keep "banking" this cap space.

Skipping all the way down to day 5, we again have a roster with a daily cap hit of $19 and again remove that amount from our "bank" leaving us with $105 left for the rest of the season. For the remaining days of the season (days 6 through 10) our maximum daily cap limit is recalucaled by taking the amount we have in our bank ($105) and dividing it by the number of days remaining in the season (5). $105/5day = $21/day max cap hit. This enables us to add a player with a $2 daily cap hit for the remainder of the season.


This is EXACTLY what the league does on a daily basis for every single team in the league. They use computers to do it because there are a lot of players moving in and out of each teams roster and the impact of players on LTIR have to also be accounted for but suffice it to say that our little example IS in fact the way it's done by the league. The daily amount you get to spend DOES change every single day. It's recomputed after every single day and every team gets a new number EVERY SINGLE DAY.


LTIR gets a little "funky" but I can add it to our little example if everyone is really THAT interested (I honestly don't WANT to have to do it but if another pissing contest erupts and more misinformation is spewed I probably won't be able to stop myself).

LOL - I was also going to quote VanSciver explaning the above and showing that the previous (although spoken as fact) statements were false. You are correct.

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