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Old
10-07-2011, 11:13 AM
  #51
Teufelsdreck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't know why people are not excited by the speed, quickness and puck moving skills of our Dmen.
Every single one of them can move the puck from decently well to really well, with the exception of Gill.

Last year, we didn't have big tough Dmen. We had some bigger guys, sure, but they weren't tough physical Dmen. The problem was mainly their speed. By the time they got to the puck behind the net or in the corners, the opposing players were already pretty much on them. You need some very fast and good skaters if you want that puck out intelligently.
How often did you see our players slowly skate to the puck and due to the oncoming pressure, had no choice but to whip it around the boards? Remember what that translated to? Losing puck possession.

I don't think we have to worry about our Defense as much, especially not with JM's system. Some additions can be made throughout the year if toughness from our back end becomes an obvious necessity, but I'm not really worried so far.
Why question the Dmen? You can't convince me that they actually defended against the Leafs in the second and third periods. You'll have to admit they were humiliated physically. It doesn't matter how well they move the puck if they can't get possession of it or neutralize the opposing puck carrier. I'd like to see better coordinated positioning in their own zone. I'd rather not see the same six as a unit. I'd rather not see PK go behind the opponents' net and be unable to get back in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrule22 View Post
If we use the last tampa game as a gauge, the defence were never in much difficulty the whole game. We shall see what the regular season starts, but with JM system, and Price. It should be OK
Unfortunately, you were praising the D before you saw it in action against the Leafs. It was not OK.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 10-07-2011 at 01:50 PM. Reason: merged
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10-07-2011, 11:30 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
We need to be careful not to confuse physicality with defense, and size with ability. Toronto's defense is signficantly weaker than Montreal's, even without Markov.
Really? What makes you say that.

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10-07-2011, 11:53 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Really? What makes you say that.
Because I evaluate D-man on results rather than eyeballs and reputation; and Montreal has better players and the unit is better constructed.

Subban can outscore top competition with Hal freaking Gill as his partner. He's better than anyone the Leafs have.

Much-disliked Spacek somehow has managed to be +9 both years he was with the Habs (2nd and 1st on the team, only behind Andrei Markov once) while playing tough minutes out of position. Advanced stats tell us this didn't happen by chance. He's been a perfectly fine top-4 D-man for the entirety of his Habs career.

Gorges is also an extremely solid defensive-minded top-4 D-man who can limit scoring chances even against tough opposition.

Toronto's blueline, by contrast, is full of players longer in reputation than ability (Phaneuf, Schenn) and sorely lacking in vital puck movement skills. Individually the players are not bad, but the unit as a whole is poorly constructed. It gets a lot of praise for its size and physicality, which obviates the fact that these do not constitute defense on their own, and that the unit is very low on puck-movers.

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10-07-2011, 12:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Unfortunately, you were praising the D before you saw it in action against the Leafs. It was not OK.
toronto had 18 shots for the game, with a 5-3 man advantage for over a min.. of those 18 shots, 2 shots came when we had a power play and they scored a goal. The defence was fine and that s not taking into account that Campoli was injured.

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10-07-2011, 12:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by habsrule22 View Post
toronto had 18 shots for the game, with a 5-3 man advantage for over a min.. of those 18 shots, 2 shots came when we had a power play and they scored a goal. The defence was fine and that s not taking into account that Campoli was injured.
This.

I don't really like how soft our D is, again, a toughness issue, but they weren't responsible for the 2-0 loss against the Leafs. The inability to create good scoring chances and bury them in the 2nd and third period was.

And that's directly connected to how soft we are, shots from the perimeter and barely anyone screening Reimer, nobody driving the puck to the net, JM benching AK and playing Darche over Cole on the 2nd line...

Toronto constantly had 1 Dman pinching on our small wingers and Habs didn't adapt. imo we got outcoached.

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10-07-2011, 12:29 PM
  #56
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Gill is the only one I see who can clear the front of the net. You need a least one more dman who can do that job. When he was in Pittsburgh, they also had Orpik and they were good enough to match up against the Wings in the playoffs (who crash the crease as well as anyone).

You saw the fun the Leafs had last night running Price. Is he gonna be able to withstand 70 games of that?

I watch someone like Spacek, who knows how, but doesn't have the strength anymore for that role (if he ever did) .

If the powerplay was functioning well, it would mitigate it some because teams would be afraid to give the Habs chances.

They need to add someone to the group, in my opinion. Doesn't have to be a fighter, just someone with the ability to protect the front of his net. Even Mara would look good with this group. There is an imbalance to me.

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10-07-2011, 12:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
This.

I don't really like how soft our D is, again, a toughness issue, but they weren't responsible for the 2-0 loss against the Leafs. The inability to create good scoring chances and bury them in the 2nd and third period was.

And that's directly connected to how soft we are, shots from the perimeter and barely anyone screening Reimer, nobody driving the puck to the net, JM benching AK and playing Darche over Cole on the 2nd line...

Toronto constantly had 1 Dman pinching on our small wingers and Habs didn't adapt. imo we got outcoached.
guess you arent aware there's a toughness thread on Habs board...

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10-07-2011, 12:42 PM
  #58
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When we are 100% healthy on defense I am NOT worried:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Campoli - Diaz
Spacek
Yemelin

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10-07-2011, 12:46 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
When we are 100% healthy on defense I am NOT worried:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Campoli - Diaz
Spacek
Yemelin
You should...

And don't count out on the injury factor.

When you have Gill on a second pairing, it means BIG TROUBLE

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
guess you arent aware there's a toughness thread on Habs board...
I am sure you are...


Last edited by Habsfan18: 10-07-2011 at 01:51 PM. Reason: merged
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Old
10-07-2011, 12:48 PM
  #60
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Why question the Dmen? You can't convince me that they actually defended against the Leafs in the second and third periods. You'll have to admit they were humiliated physically. It doesn't matter how well they move the puck if they can't get possession of it or neutralize the opposing puck carrier. I'd like to see better coordinated positioning in their own zone. I'd rather not see the same six as a unit. I'd rather not see PK go behind the opponents' net and be unable to get back in time.
Yes, they defended rather well versus the Leafs. No team will completely neutralize another throughout a whole game. The leafs got a couple chances, that's it. There was no instance where they utterly dominated the play in our zone. The puck was effectively moved out throughout the game, and it was tape to tape for the most part, which was refreshing compared to last year's dump it along the board or glass to turn it right over.
Other than the check on Campoli, who got humiliated?? The Leafs forwards threw 6 hits, as opposed to our 7. When you're team is small, constantly being questioned about it and toughness, as soon as they get hit a little bit, it is magnified by millions.
People will talk about the hit Brown threw on Campoli, but nobody will talk about the attempt the same Brown made at hitting AK when he skated as hard as possible to lay him but AK stood his ground ''a la Forsberg'', shoved his shoulder into the hit and laid Brown down. No, nobody will talk about that.
People have their conception already made, and as soon as there is anything that plays into it, they will make it bigger than ever. People also rather whine about PG not doing anything instead of simply realizing we have three players injured that are big and bring their share of toughness.

Coordination in the zone comes with time. You realize it was game 1, it's normal for them to be rusty. If you expected them to be well coordinated and perfectly positioned right from the start, then you were setting yourself up for a disappointment.

All in all, they played well, they moved the puck well, I remember in the first, three very quick passes starting from the back end, and just like that we were already at the opposing blueline. This wasn't a long feed but 3 fast passes.

PK going behind the net has nothing to do with defense. We were on the PP and he cheated. It is a mistake that has nothing to do with the defensive game. You should talk about his pass that got intercepted and lead to the 2nd goal more. But those are simple mistakes caused from him trying too much, nothing to worry about.

I strongly disagree with your opinion about our Defense. I would have dressed Emelin instead of Diaz, but I don't have much to say about the latter one. For a first NHL game, Diaz handled himself very well.

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Old
10-07-2011, 12:49 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
I am sure you are...
Yeah I am, but I'm kind of afraid to go there as I'm not really big and huh, well, you know...

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10-07-2011, 01:02 PM
  #62
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, they defended rather well versus the Leafs. No team will completely neutralize another throughout a whole game. The leafs got a couple chances, that's it. There was no instance where they utterly dominated the play in our zone. The puck was effectively moved out throughout the game, and it was tape to tape for the most part, which was refreshing compared to last year's dump it along the board or glass to turn it right over.
Other than the check on Campoli, who got humiliated?? The Leafs forwards threw 6 hits, as opposed to our 7. When you're team is small, constantly being questioned about it and toughness, as soon as they get hit a little bit, it is magnified by millions.
People will talk about the hit Brown threw on Campoli, but nobody will talk about the attempt the same Brown made at hitting AK when he skated as hard as possible to lay him but AK stood his ground ''a la Forsberg'', shoved his shoulder into the hit and laid Brown down. No, nobody will talk about that.
People have their conception already made, and as soon as there is anything that plays into it, they will make it bigger than ever. People also rather whine about PG not doing anything instead of simply realizing we have three players injured that are big and bring their share of toughness.

Coordination in the zone comes with time. You realize it was game 1, it's normal for them to be rusty. If you expected them to be well coordinated and perfectly positioned right from the start, then you were setting yourself up for a disappointment.

All in all, they played well, they moved the puck well, I remember in the first, three very quick passes starting from the back end, and just like that we were already at the opposing blueline. This wasn't a long feed but 3 fast passes.

PK going behind the net has nothing to do with defense. We were on the PP and he cheated. It is a mistake that has nothing to do with the defensive game. You should talk about his pass that got intercepted and lead to the 2nd goal more. But those are simple mistakes caused from him trying too much, nothing to worry about.

I strongly disagree with your opinion about our Defense. I would have dressed Emelin instead of Diaz, but I don't have much to say about the latter one. For a first NHL game, Diaz handled himself very well.
This is a great post, unfortunately the people that should be paying attention will dismiss it.

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10-07-2011, 01:48 PM
  #63
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What I want to see in Winnipeg :

Spacek-Gorges
Gill-Subban
Emelin-Weber

Spacek need to step up, he was a good top 4 dman not so long ago and is the only one that has the experience to shut down top 6 forward along with Gorges.

Weber is the most experienced between him, Diaz, and Emelin so he need to play IMO. Diaz also wasn't the best against Toronto and would like that they try Emelin there, perhaps he will do good.

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10-07-2011, 01:54 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
Actually i find this thread's existence funny.

shots Toronto 18 - 32 Habs

Their should be a Our offense thread !! more than a "our defense" thread !!

So you are saying we shouldn't be discussing topics surrounding the play of the Canadiens. The post was started before the first game of the season, so it is not a reactionary post as you seem to claim.

An typical of many, you rebuttal is based on the teams play after one game. I am trying to take a step back an objectively look at the big picture rather than micor-analyzing the play of one individual or another after only three periods of hockey.

I still believe it is a legitimate topic to discuss, along with any other topics concerning the Canadiens. After all, it is a discussion forum.

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10-07-2011, 01:56 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
So you are saying we shouldn't be discussing topics surrounding the play of the Canadiens. The post was started before the first game of the season, so it is not a reactionary post as you seem to claim.

An typical of many, you rebuttal is based on the teams play after one game. I am trying to take a step back an objectively look at the big picture rather than micor-analyzing the play of one individual or another after only three periods of hockey.

I still believe it is a legitimate topic to discuss, along with any other topics concerning the Canadiens. After all, it is a discussion forum.
Look at the smiley he wasn't serious...

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10-07-2011, 02:07 PM
  #66
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would pairings of...

Markov-gorges
campoli-subban
gill-diaz
spacek/emelin/weber

..work? im not sure of handedness, also that last spot with diaz could be filled by any of those below depending on who is playing best really ( a good problem to have?), other thing is if wed wanna ease markov back in go with something like

subban-gorges
markov-campoli
gill-diaz
etc

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10-07-2011, 06:49 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
So you are saying we shouldn't be discussing topics surrounding the play of the Canadiens. The post was started before the first game of the season, so it is not a reactionary post as you seem to claim.

An typical of many, you rebuttal is based on the teams play after one game. I am trying to take a step back an objectively look at the big picture rather than micor-analyzing the play of one individual or another after only three periods of hockey.

I still believe it is a legitimate topic to discuss, along with any other topics concerning the Canadiens. After all, it is a discussion forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Look at the smiley he wasn't serious...
Forsead was +/- right ... i was half serious ... more sort of commenting dumbly ...

one of these stupid but true little comments that kids would make in the back end of the class room and that bring nothing except a little smile.

Nothing to worry about in any case ;-)

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10-07-2011, 08:47 PM
  #68
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Interesting that Martin said that he thought Emelin had a pretty good camp. Also he tought that Desharnais line was doing well in the game.

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10-07-2011, 09:11 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Because I evaluate D-man on results rather than eyeballs and reputation; and Montreal has better players and the unit is better constructed.

Subban can outscore top competition with Hal freaking Gill as his partner. He's better than anyone the Leafs have.

Much-disliked Spacek somehow has managed to be +9 both years he was with the Habs (2nd and 1st on the team, only behind Andrei Markov once) while playing tough minutes out of position. Advanced stats tell us this didn't happen by chance. He's been a perfectly fine top-4 D-man for the entirety of his Habs career.

Gorges is also an extremely solid defensive-minded top-4 D-man who can limit scoring chances even against tough opposition.

Toronto's blueline, by contrast, is full of players longer in reputation than ability (Phaneuf, Schenn) and sorely lacking in vital puck movement skills. Individually the players are not bad, but the unit as a whole is poorly constructed. It gets a lot of praise for its size and physicality, which obviates the fact that these do not constitute defense on their own, and that the unit is very low on puck-movers.
We have one puck mover with NHL experience and that is Subban, they have one and it is Liles. We have a puck mover who is a rookie (Diaz) and they have one who is a rookie (Gardner). I would rate Phaneuf ahead of Campoli in that area. I don't consider Gorges or Spacek to be a tremendous puck moving defensemen, certainly no better than Gunnarson and probably not as good.

Maybe I am over-rating the Toronto defense here but it seems to me that it is a unit that has a reasonable balance among size, skill and toughness. I wouldn't gloat about how much superior we are in that area just yet.

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10-07-2011, 09:24 PM
  #70
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Spacek is not a "tremendous" puck mover, but he's a good one. Certainly better than Gunnarson. I see Campoli as a better passer than Phaneuf, whom I don't rate very highly TBH; Phaneuf as a PMD is, frankly, a new one to me. Subban is better at it than Liles. And so on.

I don't see why everyone goes ga-ga about the Leafs defense. I remember a couple years back when it was, for some reason, hailed as one of the best 5 in the game. Turned out to be terrible, of course, for many of the same flaws that this new version shares.

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10-07-2011, 09:32 PM
  #71
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Liles is the leafs only above average puck moving blueliner. Even with him they are well below league average at this as a unit.

They've gotten faster, but that still isn't a defense I trust with the puck.

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10-07-2011, 10:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Spacek is not a "tremendous" puck mover, but he's a good one. Certainly better than Gunnarson. I see Campoli as a better passer than Phaneuf, whom I don't rate very highly TBH; Phaneuf as a PMD is, frankly, a new one to me. Subban is better at it than Liles. And so on.

I don't see why everyone goes ga-ga about the Leafs defense. I remember a couple years back when it was, for some reason, hailed as one of the best 5 in the game. Turned out to be terrible, of course, for many of the same flaws that this new version shares.
I agree that no one should be ga-ga over the Leaf's defense. However, I don't think the gap between their defense and ours is terribly wide... certainly not as wide as I would like to see it. I believe the Leafs played much better over the last half of last year and since then they have added some new blood without losing a lot of talent.

This year, at least so far, we are still trying to replace Markov/Wizniewski as well as Hamrlik. That is a lot of minutes and a lot of points that someone needs to replace.

Hopefully our defensive unit continues to develop and can carry the load necessary for the team to win.

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10-07-2011, 11:09 PM
  #73
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didnt the leafs start out 4-0 last year?

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10-08-2011, 12:28 AM
  #74
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I think many are under estimating the leafs D. They have a very nice balance of offence, puck moving, size and physicality. That is not just as a defensive group either but on each pairing. They also have two young guys with alot of upside and huge size in Franson and Aulie both at 6'5" as their #7 and 8. One is an offensive guy and the other a stay at home type, once agian a nice balance. Not saying its the best or anything but is definetly not weak as some seem to be suggesting.

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10-08-2011, 12:30 AM
  #75
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Liles is the leafs only above average puck moving blueliner. Even with him they are well below league average at this as a unit.

They've gotten faster, but that still isn't a defense I trust with the puck.
Its unfortunate you did not get to see more of Gardiner yesterday. If he stays up on the roster you will be noticing him soon enough.

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