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[THE INSTIGATOR] Open letter to Geoff Molson

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09-24-2011, 09:15 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Very good blog. Enjoyed the read and pretty much agree. I think a lot of fans overlook just how great this team can be.
We're sometimes too focused on finding the negative in everything and forget to look at the positive. There's lots of it coming.

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09-24-2011, 11:07 PM
  #202
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True, I did start with Yemelin simply because he impresses me in camp so far. But it wasn't where I wanted to go with it, as the title attests.

Either way, here's hoping that Leblanc comes back healthy as I was reading this summer that some scouts think he'll become a third line player at best.
That's what they used to say about Plekanec too. The kid has above average skills and good knack for the net, he's not the most offensively creative but he makes up for it with his strong desire and non-stop attitude, will barely ever lose a 1v1 battle along the boards, I remember him beating Bergeron/Marchand in last year's camp when on the PK, that's where he really impressed me, but god did he ever look skinny out there

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10-03-2011, 10:35 PM
  #203
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Do players now know where Shanahan is “heading”?

Do players now know where Shanahan is “heading”?




Since Brendan Shanahan took over the discipline from Colin Campbell, he’s been extremely consistent with his suspensions, sending a clear message to all NHL players: DON’T HIT PLAYER’S HEAD!

Since the start of pre-season, Shanahan has suspended 9 players and has handed out a total of 59 pre-season and regular seasons’ games of suspension. The players are: Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond, Jody Shelley, James Wisniewski, Brad Staubitz, Brad Boyes, Tom Sestito, J-F Jacques, Brendan Smith and Clark MacArthur. It is interesting to note that all but one player (Jacques for leaving the bench to fight) were suspended for Rule 41.1 (Boarding) or 48.1 (Illegal check to the head), mostly on hits occurring when players were in a vulnerable position.

On Saturday night in Quebec City, Tampa Bay Lightning forward Ryan Malone was running everyone and everything over all night and with the game out of hand for his team with just a few minutes to play, he nailed Montreal Canadiens’ defenseman Chris Campoli with a hit to the head while Campoli was in a vulnerable position as he was reaching for the puck. The referees judged that it was indeed an infraction as Malone received a major penalty for hit to the head and was ejected from the game. Here’s the video:


It came as a surprise to many (if not most) when Shanahan rendered his decision and chose to let Malone walk free of any disciplinary action.

Not wanting to judge if he’s right or wrong here...

Read more: Do players now know where Shanahan is “heading”?

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10-04-2011, 12:09 AM
  #204
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Was a good read. To be honest I really don't know where I stand on some of the points you brought up at the moment but some interesting ones were made definitely.

On the hit specifically I agree it does make it harder to understand what is or isn't clean given the MacArthur hit in comparison. (Among others)

Consistency appears to be an issue.

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10-04-2011, 08:23 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Was a good read. To be honest I really don't know where I stand on some of the points you brought up at the moment but some interesting ones were made definitely.

On the hit specifically I agree it does make it harder to understand what is or isn't clean given the MacArthur hit in comparison. (Among others)

Consistency appears to be an issue.
The thing is I like Shanahan and what he had done so far. I felt like I knew where he was going. I now can't say that anymore and that's where the problem is.

As Mathman was saying in another thread, Shanny seems to be walking a fine grey line, creating this precedent and loophole where he can go one way or the other. Not good.

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10-04-2011, 08:38 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
The thing is I like Shanahan and what he had done so far. I felt like I knew where he was going. I now can't say that anymore and that's where the problem is.

As Mathman was saying in another thread, Shanny seems to be walking a fine grey line, creating this precedent and loophole where he can go one way or the other. Not good.
Exactly. I also felt Oren's piece over at HQ was pretty good too. He was talking about how after the MacArthur hit (we all know it was a bs suspension) Shanny felt heat from the NHLPA and thus made a bad decision on the Malone hit due to some kind of backlash. Problem is like you say now we don't know what is legal or isn't and are pretty much back to square one. Only difference being it's Shanny being inconsistent now and not Campbell.

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10-05-2011, 10:29 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Exactly. I also felt Oren's piece over at HQ was pretty good too. He was talking about how after the MacArthur hit (we all know it was a bs suspension) Shanny felt heat from the NHLPA and thus made a bad decision on the Malone hit due to some kind of backlash. Problem is like you say now we don't know what is legal or isn't and are pretty much back to square one. Only difference being it's Shanny being inconsistent now and not Campbell.
It will be interesting to see what happens now that the real season is about to start... that's for sure.

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10-05-2011, 10:56 PM
  #208
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A great read about Shanahan, Habsterix.

I, too, was pleased to see that the NHL finally found someone willing to punish the most egregious violators.......the head hunters.

And then, along comes Malone and the non-suspension. The NHL, while looking fair and decent in most games, became a joke again.

I wonder who the NHL is angry with........the city of Montreal, the Molsons, Gauthier or Martin.

If the non-suspensions are the rule for the Habs, it will be open season on our skill players, especially since our team does not have the muscle and fighting ability to defend themselves.

Might be a long hard year.....

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10-07-2011, 05:10 PM
  #209
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The truth hurts: Don Cherry tells it like he sees it!

The truth hurts: Don Cherry tells it like he sees it!


Who in the NHL hockey world doesn’t know Don “Grapes” Cherry by now? The 77 year old former player and former NHL coach has been telling his side of things on thousands of hockey related topics on Hockey Night in Canada since the early 80’s. Controversial and well known for his loud suits and even louder mouth, he’s not afraid to speak his mind even if he knows that he’ll ruffle some feathers.

In his most recent Coach’s Corner on CBC this past Thursday, Cherry went on a rant against Brendan Shanahan for his severe suspensions, saying that by doing so, he will take hitting out of hockey as that he’s giving the players excuses not to hit. Further, he blasted those, including the media, who took advantage on the fact that 3 enforcers passed away this summer to run an anti-fighting campaign. He pushed the issue further again by calling former fighters Stu Grimson, Chris Nilan and Jim Thomson “pukes” and “hypocrites” for, according to Cherry, implying that their substance and alcohol abuse on the fact that they were fighters. To his credit, Cherry did do some research on past suicide.

See for yourself...


Read more: The truth hurts: Don Cherry tells it like he sees it!

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10-07-2011, 05:28 PM
  #210
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I am not surprise your view falls in hand with this pure imbecile's. Calling anyone a puke because their opinion differs from yours is simply idiotic.

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10-07-2011, 05:45 PM
  #211
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He shoulda been off the air years ago

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10-07-2011, 06:03 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I am not surprise your view falls in hand with this pure imbecile's. Calling anyone a puke because their opinion differs from yours is simply idiotic.
Pot meet kettle? He calls someone a puke for disagreeing, you call him an imbecile for having a different opinion than you. What's the difference, really Kriss? As for his puke comment, he admitted having gone too far. See the Sportsnet interview.

I don't like the way he delivers his messages. As a matter of fact, I don't agree with everything he says. But make no mistakes: his message often is the right one.

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10-07-2011, 06:12 PM
  #213
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So you agree with Cherry and... how is this interesting?

Saying that Shanahan work will "will take hitting out of hockey" isn't an argument, it's a slippery slope. As for the MMA angle, MMA fighters takes months of rest between every fight they do (just like Boxers). This isn't the same context at all with NHL players, who have to play 2-3 games every week.

As for Shanahan consistency, he hasn't be at his job for long enough for an opinion to be formed on the matter.

I'm sorry, but this isn't more than a "me too" blog post.

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10-07-2011, 06:18 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
As for the MMA angle, MMA fighters takes months of rest between every fight they do (just like Boxers). This isn't the same context at all with NHL players, who have to play 2-3 games every week.
MMA also fight several rounds in each fight, not the case in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by La Grosse Tendresse View Post
Yep, nobody cares about how you agree with a piece of **** human being Habsterix.
Thanks for the input. Buy why did you come read and comment if you don't care, might I ask?

It's so easy to take the personal attacks way when you run out of arguments on a topic.

Bottom line is that his way of delivering the message is wrong and rubs people the wrong way. But it doesn't change the fact that more often than not, the message itself has value.

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10-07-2011, 06:20 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Pot meet kettle? He calls someone a puke for disagreeing, you call him an imbecile for having a different opinion than you. What's the difference, really Kriss? As for his puke comment, he admitted having gone too far. See the Sportsnet interview.

I don't like the way he delivers his messages. As a matter of fact, I don't agree with everything he says. But make no mistakes: his message often is the right one.
You really should not use that example when you assume things on your own.
I think Cherry is an imbecile for the many things he has said over the years. This is another example. I do not think he is an idiot for having his own opinion. You missed the boat.

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10-07-2011, 06:22 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
MMA also fight several rounds in each fight, not the case in the NHL.
And players play multiple periods, and can get hit multiple times after their fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Bottom line is that his way of delivering the message is wrong and rubs people the wrong way. But it doesn't change the fact that more often than not, the message itself has value.
But not this time. This time it's a parade of all the old clichés.


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 10-07-2011 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Merged
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10-07-2011, 06:24 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Bottom line is that his way of delivering the message is wrong and rubs people the wrong way. But it doesn't change the fact that more often than not, the message itself has value.
I dont think saying the way shanahan is handing out suspension will remove hitting has any value at all.

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10-07-2011, 06:26 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
And players play multiple periods, and can get hit multiple times after their fight.
They don't fight every period though, MMA fighters do, every minute, every second of a fight.

The MMA reference by Cherry in the Sportsnet piece was about the so-called outrage of fighting in hockey, yet there is none in boxing (which has been around for how many years?) and with MMA, the fastest growing sport in the world.

The media (and fans by ricochet) are pushing their own agenda to ban fighting because they don't like it, but as Cherry is saying, instead of coming out to say what they want/don't want, they hide behind suicides, players safety and all other excuses.

Hard to argue against that.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I dont think saying the way shanahan is handing out suspension will remove hitting has any value at all.
I think it does. Now who's right Kriss? It's a matter of opinions, based on what may or may not happen in the future. Hard to prove one way or another.


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 10-07-2011 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Merged
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10-07-2011, 06:33 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
They don't fight every period though, MMA fighters do, every minute, every second of a fight.
It still doesn't change anything Habsterix. It doesn't change the fact that we are comparing months of rests versus a few days at best.
Quote:
The MMA reference by Cherry in the Sportsnet piece was about the so-called outrage of fighting in hockey, yet there is none in boxing (which has been around for how many years?) and with MMA, the fastest growing sport in the world.
Maybe there's no outrage about boxing and MMA because their fans aren't outraged? While there's been a lot of pressure by many people in the NHL for years to get rid to hit to the head?
Quote:
The media (and fans by ricochet) are pushing their own agenda to ban fighting because they don't like it, but as Cherry is saying, instead of coming out to say what they want/don't want, they hide behind suicides, players safety and all other excuses.
That's just speculation about motives. This isn't interesting. but it is certainly quite convenient for Cherry to believe that the anti-fights movement in the NHL exists "because people don't like fighting", because this allow him to simply disregard the player health argument.

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I think it does. Now who's right Kriss? It's a matter of opinions, based on what may or may not happen in the future. Hard to prove one way or another.
Oh please. It's just a slippery slope! It's no different from people saying that welfare will cause everybody to stop working. It's a completely ridiculous, exaggerated prediction, and it is painfully obvious.

Is there any group (fans, players, hockey managers, Shanahan) who wishes to eliminate hits from the game? No? Then there's no reason why it will happens.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 10-07-2011 at 07:07 PM. Reason: merged
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10-07-2011, 07:06 PM
  #220
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The "take hits out of hockey" argument is such a scare tactic, nobody's asking for that and it could never happen because of the nature of the game. I just don't get why people care more about "toughness" and masculinity than they do about player safety, hockey can be plenty tough even if players are forced to be more careful.

The boxing/MMA comparison just doesn't make sense to me, I occasionally enjoy a hockey fight but I watch hockey primarily for the hockey, while I watch boxing for the fighting. Everything about boxing, from the regulations to the preparation, is geared toward fighting, and as others have said, fighters need months between fights at the risk of serious damage. It takes tons of preparation for that one fight, and the recovery afterwards is immense.

Boxers and MMA fighters train full time to fight. Hockey enforcers might hone their "skill", but the technical quality of a hockey fight is very low, even show fights between goons are sloppy without any of the tactical challenge of boxing.

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10-07-2011, 08:09 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
It still doesn't change anything Habsterix. It doesn't change the fact that we are comparing months of rests versus a few days at best.

Maybe there's no outrage about boxing and MMA because their fans aren't outraged? While there's been a lot of pressure by many people in the NHL for years to get rid to hit to the head?

That's just speculation about motives. This isn't interesting. but it is certainly quite convenient for Cherry to believe that the anti-fights movement in the NHL exists "because people don't like fighting", because this allow him to simply disregard the player health argument.


Oh please. It's just a slippery slope! It's no different from people saying that welfare will cause everybody to stop working. It's a completely ridiculous, exaggerated prediction, and it is painfully obvious.

Is there any group (fans, players, hockey managers, Shanahan) who wishes to eliminate hits from the game? No? Then there's no reason why it will happens.
I think that there is a lot of relevance in the comparison with boxing and MMA in the aspect of player safety and if I'm not mistaken, that's angle where Cherry brings the comparison. The longest fight in the NHL was between Jim Vandermeer and Cam Janssen and it lasted a whooping 1:44 (source).

In the NHL last year, only 3 players had more than 20 majors (the NHL doesn't split fighting majors and other majors though).

Each round of a MMA fight is 5 minutes, with only a one minute rest in between, and a match can be up to 5 rounds of constant pounding. No wonder they need months. Half of that time by the way is to train on techniques to beat their opponent once the match-up has been announced. Not all to recuperate.

In boxing? 10-15 rounds!

So basically, why isn't there issues about player safety in those sports? Because they don't make it an issue, that's why. Why make it an issue in hockey, and mostly why hide behind excuses to remove it? That's where Cherry (if I've heard him correctly) is coming from.

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10-07-2011, 08:29 PM
  #222
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I believe fighting and hitting are integral to hockey....but not the crap that Cherry loves to show off.

Cherry is a hateful little man, has been for some years now, I can't stand listening to his rants anymore, hard to avoid when he says what he did last night.

Bottom line, staged fights and hits to the head have got to go.

I would love to watch a game based on skill and IF a fight broke out, it would happen from the competitve nature of the two players (see Lecavalier vs Iginla 04 finals), not a goon who plays 2 mins a game "sending a message" just to get a kiss from Don Cherry.


As for the comparisons to Boxing and MMA...those sports have doctors on staff that can call a fight off at their discretion...can anyone just call off a game for player safety? No, that is why the rule changes are needed. Shannahan's decisions may be questionable in some cases, but at least he explains his process and you can understand why he makes the desicions he makes (even if you disagree with it), unlike his predecessor who was beyond biased.

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10-07-2011, 09:22 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The boxing/MMA comparison just doesn't make sense to me, I occasionally enjoy a hockey fight but I watch hockey primarily for the hockey, while I watch boxing for the fighting. Everything about boxing, from the regulations to the preparation, is geared toward fighting, and as others have said, fighters need months between fights at the risk of serious damage. It takes tons of preparation for that one fight, and the recovery afterwards is immense.

Boxers and MMA fighters train full time to fight. Hockey enforcers might hone their "skill", but the technical quality of a hockey fight is very low, even show fights between goons are sloppy without any of the tactical challenge of boxing.
Does anyone actually really even enjoy watching hockey fights? Like I know anytime people suggest change a lot of people will whine about it and that's fine but really, I like fighting as much as the next guy. I like boxing and MMA but hockey fights are often tedious, irrelevant wrestling matches.They're usually incredibly boring and actually interrupt the flow of the game.

As for Cherry, he got quite a bit of facts wrong in his rant but do people even really take him seriously anymore?

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10-07-2011, 09:51 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I think that there is a lot of relevance in the comparison with boxing and MMA in the aspect of player safety and if I'm not mistaken, that's angle where Cherry brings the comparison. The longest fight in the NHL was between Jim Vandermeer and Cam Janssen and it lasted a whooping 1:44 (source).

In the NHL last year, only 3 players had more than 20 majors (the NHL doesn't split fighting majors and other majors though).

Each round of a MMA fight is 5 minutes, with only a one minute rest in between, and a match can be up to 5 rounds of constant pounding. No wonder they need months. Half of that time by the way is to train on techniques to beat their opponent once the match-up has been announced. Not all to recuperate.

In boxing? 10-15 rounds!

So basically, why isn't there issues about player safety in those sports? Because they don't make it an issue, that's why. Why make it an issue in hockey, and mostly why hide behind excuses to remove it? That's where Cherry (if I've heard him correctly) is coming from.
The main objective of MMA and Boxing is to out fight your opponent by landing more blows or by knocking him out.

The main objective of Hockey is to score more goals than your opponent.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

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10-07-2011, 11:34 PM
  #225
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Does anyone actually really even enjoy watching hockey fights? Like I know anytime people suggest change a lot of people will whine about it and that's fine but really, I like fighting as much as the next guy. I like boxing and MMA but hockey fights are often tedious, irrelevant wrestling matches.They're usually incredibly boring and actually interrupt the flow of the game.

As for Cherry, he got quite a bit of facts wrong in his rant but do people even really take him seriously anymore?
Thank you for that post. You identified one of the reasons there is fighting in hockey and why it can be useful. It interrupts the flow of the game.

If a team is playing poorly and losing, a fight can change the momentum. It can spark energy into a lifeless team. I have seen this hundreds of times over the course of many years. The Habs could have used a spark in the 2nd period (if we had a fighter) last night.

With regard to Cherry, I tremendously dislike the man. I grudgingly agree with him regarding the horrible handling by the media of the three suicides that happened this summer. They were completely off base and completely used the deaths of those three human beings to force their own agendas. Pathetic.

As always Habsterix, I like to read your blogs. Always thought provoking.

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