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[THE INSTIGATOR] Open letter to Geoff Molson

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Old
10-07-2011, 11:39 PM
  #226
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I think that there is a lot of relevance in the comparison with boxing and MMA in the aspect of player safety and if I'm not mistaken, that's angle where Cherry brings the comparison. The longest fight in the NHL was between Jim Vandermeer and Cam Janssen and it lasted a whooping 1:44 (source).

In the NHL last year, only 3 players had more than 20 majors (the NHL doesn't split fighting majors and other majors though).

Each round of a MMA fight is 5 minutes, with only a one minute rest in between, and a match can be up to 5 rounds of constant pounding. No wonder they need months. Half of that time by the way is to train on techniques to beat their opponent once the match-up has been announced. Not all to recuperate.

In boxing? 10-15 rounds!

So basically, why isn't there issues about player safety in those sports? Because they don't make it an issue, that's why. Why make it an issue in hockey, and mostly why hide behind excuses to remove it? That's where Cherry (if I've heard him correctly) is coming from.
You are so focused on proving a point (or perhaps simply trying to stir a discussion) that you don't even realize how ridiculous what you are writing sounds. The same thing happened in the PGT when you can't even what is/isn't criticism anymore because it's become so normal to you.

The objective of MMA is to beat your opponent. It isn't to put a puck in a net.
Also, you are completely wrong about not having ''player safety'' in MMA. They give the benefit of the doubt to the Referee if ever there is a quick stoppage. Just recently Dana White came out to defend one of his referee caught in that type of controversy. Furthermore, they do not allow knees or kicks to the head of a downed opponent, no gauging, no hair pulling, etc..
Obviously, they will not tell fighters not to hit each as it is the MAIN PURPOSE of the sport.
What else? Are you going to say, hey, in kickboxing they permit kicking! So there's no player safety there!

Fighting in hockey has nothing in common with MMA. Saying it may is just foolish, seriously foolish.

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10-08-2011, 12:26 AM
  #227
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If you think fighting is so important to hockey you must have a very low opinion of the sport thinking it needs to resort to such base antics to get someone to watch. This would be like Nascar advertising "Now with more ACCIDENTS!!"

Every major sport outside of ones like boxing and MMA has fighting as illegal. Maybe it is time for Hockey to grow up and cast off these brain dead "fans" who don't want to lose their precious punch ups. I would rather watch a game of speed and talent over a game of retarded goons braining each other.

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10-08-2011, 01:26 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Pot meet kettle? He calls someone a puke for disagreeing, you call him an imbecile for having a different opinion than you. What's the difference, really Kriss? As for his puke comment, he admitted having gone too far. See the Sportsnet interview.
He's calling him an imbecile because he's an imbecile. Do you know why Nilan wants a public apology? Because what Don Cherry said about him was 100% not true. I listen to Mitch Melnyk with Nilan almost every day and he's never said any of the things Cherry was implying.

Nilan did once say that they should take fighting out of the game because that's what the Bettman clearly wants to do. He'd rather have it removed than have the bastardized version seen today. Funny, PJ Stock was in complete agreement with him, but Cherry's got nothing to say about his fellow Bruins homer.

Cherry could be the bigger man and just admit he was wrong and apologize for making slanderous statements, but instead, he acted like a child about it. Therefore, he's an imbecile.

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10-08-2011, 06:10 AM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I think that there is a lot of relevance in the comparison with boxing and MMA in the aspect of player safety and if I'm not mistaken, that's angle where Cherry brings the comparison. The longest fight in the NHL was between Jim Vandermeer and Cam Janssen and it lasted a whooping 1:44 (source).

In the NHL last year, only 3 players had more than 20 majors (the NHL doesn't split fighting majors and other majors though).

Each round of a MMA fight is 5 minutes, with only a one minute rest in between, and a match can be up to 5 rounds of constant pounding. No wonder they need months. Half of that time by the way is to train on techniques to beat their opponent once the match-up has been announced. Not all to recuperate.

In boxing? 10-15 rounds!

So basically, why isn't there issues about player safety in those sports? Because they don't make it an issue, that's why. Why make it an issue in hockey, and mostly why hide behind excuses to remove it? That's where Cherry (if I've heard him correctly) is coming from.
2 things

1) An NHL enforcer is taking shots to the head multiple times a week for 8 months, a boxer is taking a bunch of shots to the head but only 2 nights a year, and its not bare fisted

2) The entire purpose of boxing is to hit. Fighting is supposed to be a rare event when emotions boil over in hockey, but rarely does that fight happen now. Now its morphed into boxing on ice. We make a big deal of guys like Rypien and Boogaard succumbing to the mental effects of fighting, but what we don't realize is that these guys never should have had the opportunity to play in this league. The very fact that there is a culture in the game that wants those kind of guys in it is a problem.

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10-08-2011, 06:42 AM
  #230
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Last was aware, bare knuckle boxing was illegal EVERYWHERE, including MMA and boxing. Oddly, it's still legal during a hockey game.

Besides fighting in hockey, which is far more dangerous than in MMA or boxing, hits to the head are and always have been illegal.

In either case, I really don't see where Cherry has a leg to stand on. Besides, listening to the guy who makes millions of dollars every year by exploiting the big hits in the NHL is the biggest conflict of interest imaginable. That's nothing new for him as he's a senile wind bag, who for some some sense of sentiment by the Toronto media, still manages to stay on the air.

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10-08-2011, 06:47 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
The main objective of MMA and Boxing is to out fight your opponent by landing more blows or by knocking him out.

The main objective of Hockey is to score more goals than your opponent.

You're comparing apples to oranges.
I'm not comparing the two sports though. Read the blog. The only link here is the "excuses" used as player safety. That's where the comparison ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
2 things

1) An NHL enforcer is taking shots to the head multiple times a week for 8 months, a boxer is taking a bunch of shots to the head but only 2 nights a year, and its not bare fisted

2) The entire purpose of boxing is to hit. Fighting is supposed to be a rare event when emotions boil over in hockey, but rarely does that fight happen now. Now its morphed into boxing on ice. We make a big deal of guys like Rypien and Boogaard succumbing to the mental effects of fighting, but what we don't realize is that these guys never should have had the opportunity to play in this league. The very fact that there is a culture in the game that wants those kind of guys in it is a problem.
But in MMA or boxing, they take a heck of a lot more punches in those two fights.

The second point is answered above.

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10-08-2011, 06:53 AM
  #232
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you can argue the merit of the instigator rule, i personally don't like it. and please, who the **** has been calling to eliminate fighting in the NHL? nobody except a few trying to stir **** up. nobody wants fighting gone from the NHL.

but comparing fighting in the NHL to fighting in the MMA is a fallacy and it's ****ing moronic.

if you love fighting on ice so much, there's a league for you: the LNAH

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10-08-2011, 07:29 AM
  #233
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Grapes played what, 1 NHL game, and coached for a few years...he has almost no credibility with the entire league, would love to see Grimson, Nilan or Thompson run into him in the corridor some night...

We have all known for some time, the guy is a blowhard, end of discussion.

He advocates player safety, and fighting? He is an old dinosaur, in his day, the guys were 5'8 and weighed 170 lbs...now 6.1 feet and 205 lbs is average, not to mention the speed of the players and the game...get with the times Grapes, or just retire...

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10-08-2011, 07:50 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
He advocates player safety, and fighting? He is an old dinosaur, in his day, the guys were 5'8 and weighed 170 lbs...now 6.1 feet and 205 lbs is average, not to mention the speed of the players and the game...get with the times Grapes, or just retire...
But But But... it's always been part of the game! The most powerful argument EVAR!!!!

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10-08-2011, 08:06 AM
  #235
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Just get rid of the stage fight - The one were they after they drop the puck. And the fight that occur after a clean hit. That would eliminate about 80 % of the fights.

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10-08-2011, 08:09 AM
  #236
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I can take or leave Cherry ,while he makes good points he can aslo be ridiculous.He's bang on about the media thing,to early on the Shanahan thing (he's gonna need time to work things out but I think he will),Dead wrong to be praising Stevens.The idea of a check is to seperate the player in possesion from the puck not of his head.When he shows the Steven's clip we see players getting concussede and he says "we'll never see that again" and in my head I say "I hope not" i'm glad Stevens doesn't play anymore I hate it when a player aims to injure another and that is what Stevens did IMO.

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10-08-2011, 08:13 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Thank you for that post. You identified one of the reasons there is fighting in hockey and why it can be useful. It interrupts the flow of the game.

If a team is playing poorly and losing, a fight can change the momentum. It can spark energy into a lifeless team. I have seen this hundreds of times over the course of many years. The Habs could have used a spark in the 2nd period (if we had a fighter) last night.

With regard to Cherry, I tremendously dislike the man. I grudgingly agree with him regarding the horrible handling by the media of the three suicides that happened this summer. They were completely off base and completely used the deaths of those three human beings to force their own agendas. Pathetic.

As always Habsterix, I like to read your blogs. Always thought provoking.
That was a reasonable post. But I have to ask you: Do you like anything about hockey except hitting and fighting? These are enjoyable parts of the game to be sure, but hitting is only means to slow skill. You are getting it the wrong way round.

And fighting was originally about one on one revenge for dirty play. That is all it was. One on one. If you give me a cheap shot, I will fight you. Not my team mate over there, me.

Proxy fighting is a joke, always has been. When Richard or Howe got speared, they fought. That's real NHL fighting, and it hardly exists now, because we accept the joke idea of proxy fighters. I do not. They have no place in the game. Only exception is if my center gets knocked out by a cheap shot I will fight for him, because he can't, but otherwise, he will do his own fighting. That's the way it should be.

I have to wonder at your understanding of what hockey is really about. Hockey is about pure skating and speed above all, and passing and shooting. Hitting, a great part of hockey when it is clean, was adopted by less skilled players to slow the skilled players down. That's all.

Hockey in its basic form is played by guys with tremendous skill and talent. It is not played primarily for hitting and fighting.

You need to have grown up playing the game to know this. I did, and I stand by my deep understanding of the game. I could kiss fighting goodbye tomorrow, and also kiss almost all hitting except the good clean body check goodbye too. No loss, zero loss to hockey.

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10-08-2011, 08:30 AM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I think that there is a lot of relevance in the comparison with boxing and MMA in the aspect of player safety and if I'm not mistaken, that's angle where Cherry brings the comparison. The longest fight in the NHL was between Jim Vandermeer and Cam Janssen and it lasted a whooping 1:44 (source).

In the NHL last year, only 3 players had more than 20 majors (the NHL doesn't split fighting majors and other majors though).

Each round of a MMA fight is 5 minutes, with only a one minute rest in between, and a match can be up to 5 rounds of constant pounding. No wonder they need months. Half of that time by the way is to train on techniques to beat their opponent once the match-up has been announced. Not all to recuperate.

In boxing? 10-15 rounds!

So basically, why isn't there issues about player safety in those sports? Because they don't make it an issue, that's why. Why make it an issue in hockey, and mostly why hide behind excuses to remove it? That's where Cherry (if I've heard him correctly) is coming from.
there's a pretty big difference between the two.

Players train to fight in MMA and boxing. They train day in and day out and generally have been doing it for years.

Hockey fighters are hockey players that are big and not good enough to have a role on the team without having to fight. i'd bet that most enforcers don't even enjoy fighting but do it because it's the only way they get to play in the NHL.

They fight on skates, and falling and hitting their head on the ice is a very big risk.

I wouldn't call myself anti-fighting, but I do believe that being an enforcer can take a toll on them.

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10-08-2011, 08:34 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by JOKER 192 View Post
I can take or leave Cherry ,while he makes good points he can aslo be ridiculous.He's bang on about the media thing,to early on the Shanahan thing (he's gonna need time to work things out but I think he will),Dead wrong to be praising Stevens.The idea of a check is to seperate the player in possesion from the puck not of his head.When he shows the Steven's clip we see players getting concussede and he says "we'll never see that again" and in my head I say "I hope not" i'm glad Stevens doesn't play anymore I hate it when a player aims to injure another and that is what Stevens did IMO.
this needs repeating a 1,000 times...

too many people grew up in the era where they think that the idea of hitting is to destroy someone. it never was.

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10-08-2011, 08:35 AM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
That was a reasonable post. But I have to ask you: Do you like anything about hockey except hitting and fighting? These are enjoyable parts of the game to be sure, but hitting is only means to slow skill. You are getting it the wrong way round.

And fighting was originally about one on one revenge for dirty play. That is all it was. One on one. If you give me a cheap shot, I will fight you. Not my team mate over there, me.

Proxy fighting is a joke, always has been. When Richard or Howe got speared, they fought. That's real NHL fighting, and it hardly exists now, because we accept the joke idea of proxy fighters. I do not. They have no place in the game. Only exception is if my center gets knocked out by a cheap shot I will fight for him, because he can't, but otherwise, he will do his own fighting. That's the way it should be.

I have to wonder at your understanding of what hockey is really about. Hockey is about pure skating and speed above all, and passing and shooting. Hitting, a great part of hockey when it is clean, was adopted by less skilled players to slow the skilled players down. That's all.

Hockey in its basic form is played by guys with tremendous skill and talent. It is not played primarily for hitting and fighting.

You need to have grown up playing the game to know this. I did, and I stand by my deep understanding of the game. I could kiss fighting goodbye tomorrow, and also kiss almost all hitting except the good clean body check goodbye too. No loss, zero loss to hockey.
I approve of this post.

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10-08-2011, 09:10 AM
  #241
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On the whole fighting in hockey vs. boxing debate, I'd also like to point something out. Most career boxers end up having severe mental issues after a career in the ring as do ex NFLers and others in contact sports. The mere fact we're having a conversation about the merits of it is actually really sad. As we find out that things are bad for us we, as a society will ban them. Lead in paint, opium, smoking etc. Just because its part of our past doesn't make it right or justifiable. I lI've a good fight but not at the cost of a guys life once he retires.

The only thing hypocritical as far as I'm cconcerned is how badly they want to get rid of head shots for the players safety but they have no issue with bare knuckle blows to the head. That's ridiculous.

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10-08-2011, 09:19 AM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOKER 192 View Post
I can take or leave Cherry ,while he makes good points he can aslo be ridiculous.He's bang on about the media thing,to early on the Shanahan thing (he's gonna need time to work things out but I think he will),Dead wrong to be praising Stevens.The idea of a check is to seperate the player in possesion from the puck not of his head.When he shows the Steven's clip we see players getting concussede and he says "we'll never see that again" and in my head I say "I hope not" i'm glad Stevens doesn't play anymore I hate it when a player aims to injure another and that is what Stevens did IMO.
Well said! Glad Stevens is out of the game, he ended guys careers, I always wished that someone had paid him back, but no one ever got the chance... this notion you have to destroy a guy is crazy...this day and age, everyone is too big and strong, and someday a guy is gonna die on the ice, just ask Chara...

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10-08-2011, 09:26 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
That was a reasonable post. But I have to ask you: Do you like anything about hockey except hitting and fighting? These are enjoyable parts of the game to be sure, but hitting is only means to slow skill. You are getting it the wrong way round.

And fighting was originally about one on one revenge for dirty play. That is all it was. One on one. If you give me a cheap shot, I will fight you. Not my team mate over there, me.

Proxy fighting is a joke, always has been. When Richard or Howe got speared, they fought. That's real NHL fighting, and it hardly exists now, because we accept the joke idea of proxy fighters. I do not. They have no place in the game. Only exception is if my center gets knocked out by a cheap shot I will fight for him, because he can't, but otherwise, he will do his own fighting. That's the way it should be.

I have to wonder at your understanding of what hockey is really about. Hockey is about pure skating and speed above all, and passing and shooting. Hitting, a great part of hockey when it is clean, was adopted by less skilled players to slow the skilled players down. That's all.

Hockey in its basic form is played by guys with tremendous skill and talent. It is not played primarily for hitting and fighting.

You need to have grown up playing the game to know this. I did, and I stand by my deep understanding of the game. I could kiss fighting goodbye tomorrow, and also kiss almost all hitting except the good clean body check goodbye too. No loss, zero loss to hockey.
Excellent, well thought-out post. Don Cherry should give up hockey analysis and start a new career as a wedge issue advisor for Rob Ford and Stephen Harper.

I might be wrong but hockey started out as an off-season activity for rugby players. Rugby has never been a game for the feint of heart and that translated over to the game of hockey (along with no forward pass). The game most of us enjoy now was pretty much the brainchild of the Patrick family. Fighting, brawling and revenge were used as promotional devices by teams and the media to spark interest in the NHL sports enterprise and drive the NHL down to its lowest, tribal, neanderthalic common denominator: goon hockey.

Some of the best hockey I've ever seen is International hockey played on North American rinks where speed and skill are necessary for success and fighting is illegal.

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10-08-2011, 09:26 AM
  #244
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Things I didn't agree with:

-That they were pukes
-That Cherry isn't a hypocrite ever (like he claims)
-The way in general he got his point across

Things I did agree with:

-People used three unrelated deaths as a tool to fuel their stupid agenda against fighting and they should be ashamed.
-The media and people are jumping onto a bandwagon they know nothing about based on 3 random unrelated deaths. It's a sad situation but people are pathetically using it to push their agenda against fighting and it's going to ruin our sport. I do agree about head shots but fighting is fine, there are more examples of fighters who are okay and not depressed than ones who are dead. These three deaths are the exception not the rule.

Good blog imo, I agree with Cherry and I know people are going to QQ but for once Cherry is actually right. Do we need to eliminate head shots? Sure. It needs to be consistent though. Regarding the penalties I don't agree with Cherry or Shannahan with his inconsistencies. But I definitely agree with Cherry on the fighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Thank you for that post. You identified one of the reasons there is fighting in hockey and why it can be useful. It interrupts the flow of the game.

If a team is playing poorly and losing, a fight can change the momentum. It can spark energy into a lifeless team. I have seen this hundreds of times over the course of many years. The Habs could have used a spark in the 2nd period (if we had a fighter) last night.

With regard to Cherry, I tremendously dislike the man. I grudgingly agree with him regarding the horrible handling by the media of the three suicides that happened this summer. They were completely off base and completely used the deaths of those three human beings to force their own agendas. Pathetic.

As always Habsterix, I like to read your blogs. Always thought provoking.
I don't agree with you on stuff often but this is basically my stance. Just because Cherry is an idiot I don't agree with often doesn't mean I'm going to be bias against his opinion. I've said this all along and just because somebody is an idiot doesn't mean they can't say something smart now and then. His delivery was piss poor and his stance on head hits is questionable, but with the fighting stuff he was bang on even regardless of the MMA comparisons made.


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10-08-2011, 09:33 AM
  #245
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Grapes is right and fighting should stay as a part of the game. Staged fights, hitting guys when they're down and players having to fight when they don't want to should be taken out of the game and suspensions should be given. A fight after battling hard for the puck or when emotions boil over should stay in the game, its what makes the game amazing and imo fans connect with It because in real life you need to stand up for yourself once in a while and "throw down the gloves". This world turned into such a fruitcake world though that I wouldn't be suprised if they took it out soon.

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10-08-2011, 09:58 AM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyDoNot View Post
Grapes is right and fighting should stay as a part of the game. Staged fights, hitting guys when they're down and players having to fight when they don't want to should be taken out of the game and suspensions should be given. A fight after battling hard for the puck or when emotions boil over should stay in the game, its what makes the game amazing and imo fans connect with It because in real life you need to stand up for yourself once in a while and "throw down the gloves". This world turned into such a fruitcake world though that I wouldn't be suprised if they took it out soon.
I agree in that staged fights, etc should be taken out of the game, but when was the last time you saw a fight because a guy stood up for himself?

90% of fights are staged, are in response to a clean hit on another player, or are because the losing team is mad they're losing and want to take their frustration out.

I hardly agree that people connect with hockey because in real life you need to stand up for yourself and 'throw down the gloves'. People enjoy hockey because it's an action-packed game of skill and determination, not because two meatheads started throwing punches.

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10-08-2011, 10:11 AM
  #247
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Nilan articulates

Former NHLer Nilan angered by Cherry’s comments

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Nilan does not see anything wrong with two guys dropping their gloves. But he did suggest that there may be a fear from the NHL to ban fighting from a financial standpoint.

“I have said that I believe the league is in a temperance movement, that they don’t want fighting in the game,” he said. “If they don’t want it, why don’t they just take it out? The reason why they won’t take it out because I believe it will affect the bottom line somehow. It affects the bottom line and they realize, after they take it out, how do you put it back in?”

Although he said he was stung by Cherry’s remarks, Nilan hopes for an apology on the next Coach’s Corner, during the Ottawa-Toronto game Saturday night.

“If he can go on TV and tell two million people that I’m a hypocrite, a puke and a turncoat,” Nilan said. “To call me a puke because of something he perceived I said? I think it’s the lowest of the low.”
Don Cherry - the lowest of the low.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...rrys-comments/


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10-08-2011, 10:27 AM
  #248
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So are they gonna sue for defamation?

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10-08-2011, 10:28 AM
  #249
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I can't believe I used to enjoy Don, years ago. He's an uninformed dinosaurs, with the inability to grasp anything new.

Our tax dollars at work.

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10-08-2011, 10:41 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Things I did agree with:

-People used three unrelated deaths as a tool to fuel their stupid agenda against fighting and they should be ashamed.
-The media and people are jumping onto a bandwagon they know nothing about based on 3 random unrelated deaths. It's a sad situation but people are pathetically using it to push their agenda against fighting and it's going to ruin our sport. I do agree about head shots but fighting is fine, there are more examples of fighters who are okay and not depressed than ones who are dead. These three deaths are the exception not the rule.
You can be for or against fighting, everybody has their opinion, essentially, it doesn't matter.
But there is absolutely nothing wrong with people reacting after three deaths of enforcers. Even if you think it is purely a coincidence, it's completely normal that it raises eyebrows and makes people think. Otherwise when is it okay? If you close your eyes, and then there's another 2-3 deaths throughout the year, would it be okay then to raise the question?? How many more men must die before you start talking about it??

As I said, you can be for or against it, but there's nothing wrong in using THREE deaths (that's right, not one, not two, but three), to start asking questions. Nothing hypocritical about it either.

And losing fighting would not ruin the sport, at all. The purpose of the game is to put a puck in the net, make nice passes, saves, goals. Losing fighting would change certain things, but not ruin anything. The only way I support removing fighting is if they get their crap together with refereeing and suspensions first. Removing fighting with today's leniency would be bad.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
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