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Old
10-08-2011, 02:49 AM
  #76
Mr. Hab
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
When we are 100% healthy on defense I am NOT worried:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Campoli - Diaz
Spacek
Yemelin
With our luck, when Markov comes back Gorges and/or Subban will be injured .

Markov - Emelin/Callahan
Spacek - Diaz
Emelin/Callahan - Weber



But I'll try to remain positive and fantasize about this FULL and HEALTHY D-corps for now:
Markov - Emelin
Gill/Gorges - Subban
Gill/Spacek - Gorges/Diaz
Diaz
Mara?!
Callahan

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10-08-2011, 03:36 AM
  #77
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
With our luck, when Markov comes back Gorges and/or Subban will be injured .

Markov - Emelin/Callahan
Spacek - Diaz
Emelin/Callahan - Weber



But I'll try to remain positive and fantasize about this FULL and HEALTHY D-corps for now:
Markov - Emelin
Gill/Gorges - Subban
Gill/Spacek - Gorges/Diaz
Diaz
Mara?!
Callahan
Yeah, Calahan on our 1st pair... really... where did you get that idea from ?

I mean, I know you're pretty much panicking all the time, but come on...

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10-08-2011, 03:59 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Yeah, Calahan on our 1st pair... really... where did you get that idea from ?

I mean, I know you're pretty much panicking all the time, but come on...
Was waiting for this dman for a long long time!!
Finally...we have Callahan.

Can't wait for Markov to come back in 2011?2012? or 2013? So he can play with Callahan.
Markov - Emelin or Callahan

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...layer.cgi?3036
Komisarek had his best days while playing with Markov.
Now Komisarek is the most expensive #6-7-8 dman in the NHL (#6-7-8 dman...depending on the day/opponents/his ice-time).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 10-08-2011 at 04:30 AM.
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10-08-2011, 04:45 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Was waiting for this dman for a long long time!!
Finally...we have Callahan.

Can't wait for Markov to come back in 2011?2012? or 2013? So he can play with Callahan.
Markov - Emelin or Callahan

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...layer.cgi?3036
Komisarek had his best days while playing with Markov.
Now Komisarek is the most expensive #6-7-8 dman in the NHL (#6-7-8 dman...depending on the day/opponents/his ice-time).
when you have nothing intelligent to say, it's best just not to say anything.

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Old
10-08-2011, 08:25 AM
  #80
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healthy, i love this defense. sure, we lack depth but really, how many teams have that kind of depth. and nash, who i think is next in line to be promoted, is injured. injuries, like last year is our biggest problem

and stop *****ing about gill, the subban - gill pairing works great, he's a big part why our PK has rocked the last few years, and that's all that should matter.

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Old
10-08-2011, 10:29 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Burke View Post
I think many are under estimating the leafs D. They have a very nice balance of offence, puck moving, size and physicality. That is not just as a defensive group either but on each pairing. They also have two young guys with alot of upside and huge size in Franson and Aulie both at 6'5" as their #7 and 8. One is an offensive guy and the other a stay at home type, once agian a nice balance. Not saying its the best or anything but is definetly not weak as some seem to be suggesting.
Time will prove it to you. Your defense is not good and they will struggle this year.
I think the system Ron Wilson employs also doesn't favor his Dmen.

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10-08-2011, 11:06 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Burke View Post
I think many are under estimating the leafs D. They have a very nice balance of offence, puck moving, size and physicality.
That's what we get told every year and every year it's pretty grim.

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10-08-2011, 11:14 AM
  #83
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When Markov comes back healthy, I'd like to see a Gorges - Subban pairing. Moving Gorges back to his natural left side, I think they could form the top pairing for the Habs and play against the other teams top line. This way it eases Markov back in and playing against lesser competition with less responsibility. The only problem I see with this, is having too many LH dmen. If Emelin can come in and play well, adapt quickly, and partner with Markov, it would give the Habs an excess of dmen and be difficult to choose who to play and who to sit.

The Spacek - Diaz pairing has played well and can continue to be the third pairing. But there is no way Gill is not in the line-up. Campoli is also a solid dman that would need to play when is healthy again. This is going to make it difficult to play both Emelin and Diaz in the line-up, let alone Weber, or give the Habs some nice trading chips at the deadline.

But first, we need them to get healthy.

Is Emelin expected to play on Sunday?

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Old
10-08-2011, 11:34 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Time will prove it to you. Your defense is not good and they will struggle this year.
I think the system Ron Wilson employs also doesn't favor his Dmen.
Time will show what it will prove. I mostly posted in response to some habs fans suggesting that even with their current injuries their d is easily better. Whether you like the leafs d or not that is a stretch. Our defense might not be good but we dont know yet. The only thing we do know is that they do look good on paper and so far have not been scored on.

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10-08-2011, 11:37 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's what we get told every year and every year it's pretty grim.
And that there is the reason many are underestimating the leafs d. Everyone automatically counts them out based on past failure of players who mostly are not on the team any more.

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10-08-2011, 11:55 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Burke View Post
And that there is the reason many are underestimating the leafs d. Everyone automatically counts them out based on past failure of players who mostly are not on the team any more.
The problem would be replacing these players with better players. Adding Liles was a huge help, but he only replaces Kaberle, for example. The unit doesn't have a true all-around #1 guy (no, Phaneuf isn't) and has a reputation that's simply overblown due to the amount of attention Toronto gets in the media (and unlike Montreal in the French and English media, it's often positive attention).

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10-08-2011, 11:57 AM
  #87
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Ouch just read that Campoli will miss many months, I thought only 3 weeks. Thats unfortunate.

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10-08-2011, 11:59 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Burke View Post
Time will show what it will prove. I mostly posted in response to some habs fans suggesting that even with their current injuries their d is easily better. Whether you like the leafs d or not that is a stretch. Our defense might not be good but we dont know yet. The only thing we do know is that they do look good on paper and so far have not been scored on.
Saying things like they have yet to be scored on really makes you lose any little credit you might have had. What else, Montreal will not score a goal this year?
Montreal has much better puck moving from their back end, even with our injuries. Praise your physical attributes over ours if you like, but not the puck moving skills.

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10-08-2011, 12:02 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The problem would be replacing these players with better players. Adding Liles was a huge help, but he only replaces Kaberle, for example. The unit doesn't have a true all-around #1 guy (no, Phaneuf isn't) and has a reputation that's simply overblown due to the amount of attention Toronto gets in the media (and unlike Montreal in the French and English media, it's often positive attention).
I disagree. Phanuef is an all-around defencemen capable of playing on the #1 pair. His partner is also an all-around guy. The next two pairings have a strong physical stay at home defenceman paired with an above average puck mover. Depth is also important and as I said before they have two guys at 7 and 8 in their early 20s at 6'5" who have already shown they can be top 6 defencemen in the league. These two guys have opposite skill sets and can fill in almost any role.


Last edited by Burke: 10-08-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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10-08-2011, 12:06 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Saying things like they have yet to be scored on really makes you lose any little credit you might have had. What else, Montreal will not score a goal this year?
Montreal has much better puck moving from their back end, even with our injuries. Praise your physical attributes over ours if you like, but not the puck moving skills.
Im merely pointing that nothing is suggesting that their defence is bad yet so we need to wait for the future to see what will happen.

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10-08-2011, 12:08 PM
  #91
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I disagree. Phanuef is an all-around defencemen capable of people on the #1 pair.
I disagree. Much has been made of his ability because he's big and he's a strong hitter, but he's not as positionally sound as others and his puck-moving skills are lacking. It's true, though, that Liles helps cover his blind spots, but ultimately, he's always struck me as a better version of Sheldon Souray.

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Old
10-08-2011, 12:39 PM
  #92
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I disagree. Much has been made of his ability because he's big and he's a strong hitter, but he's not as positionally sound as others and his puck-moving skills are lacking. It's true, though, that Liles helps cover his blind spots, but ultimately, he's always struck me as a better version of Sheldon Souray.
He's pretty credible as a top pairing defender, he does alright in tough assignments in Toronto. Not at Markov or Subban's level though.

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10-08-2011, 01:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
He's pretty credible as a top pairing defender, he does alright in tough assignments in Toronto. Not at Markov or Subban's level though.
Sure, but let's put this into perspective here, TTG: Jaroslav Spacek did 'alright' in tough assignments. Granted, his partner was a lot better than Phaneuf's was...

Actually, maybe Hamrlik is the right comparable. Hammer is certainly a credible top-pairing defender, he does alright in tough competition and can carry a more limited partner, but he's not Markov or Subban's level.

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10-08-2011, 02:41 PM
  #94
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I disagree. Phanuef is an all-around defencemen capable of playing on the #1 pair. His partner is also an all-around guy. The next two pairings have a strong physical stay at home defenceman paired with an above average puck mover. Depth is also important and as I said before they have two guys at 7 and 8 in their early 20s at 6'5" who have already shown they can be top 6 defencemen in the league. These two guys have opposite skill sets and can fill in almost any role.
I am NOT a Leafs fan nor am I fan of Brian Burke, but like you, I think that Toronto has methodically rebuilt their defense. Their oldest defenseman is 30 years old and probably right near his prime. Most of the others are significantly younger, including Phaneuf, and have the potential to continue their development.

On the Habs roster we have 36 year old Hal Gill and 37 year old Jaro Spacek who are unlikely to improve or even maintain the level of play they achieved int he past. Yet they are going to play big minutes.

Everyone was so focused on getting the missing piece to the puzzle, the power forward, that the defense was forgotten. Now with Campoli out, even Math Man might have to admit we are running thin on the blue line.

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10-08-2011, 02:46 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
I am NOT a Leafs fan nor am I fan of Brian Burke, but like you, I think that Toronto has methodically rebuilt their defense. Their oldest defenseman is 30 years old and probably right near his prime. Most of the others are significantly younger, including Phaneuf, and have the potential to continue their development.

On the Habs roster we have 36 year old Hal Gill and 37 year old Jaro Spacek who are unlikely to improve or even maintain the level of play they achieved int he past. Yet they are going to play big minutes.

Everyone was so focused on getting the missing piece to the puzzle, the power forward, that the defense was forgotten. Now with Campoli out, even Math Man might have to admit we are running thin on the blue line.
You are probably going to see that rebuild in the upcoming future with the likes of Subban, Emelin, Diaz, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Bennett, Dietz, and to a certain degree Didier, Pateryn and Sullivan. The possibility to have 6 good to great d-men in that bunch is really there. Yet, we are talking about 5 years and more till you see their potential as a bunch.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 10-08-2011 at 03:06 PM.
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10-08-2011, 03:02 PM
  #96
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Sure, but let's put this into perspective here, TTG: Jaroslav Spacek did 'alright' in tough assignments. Granted, his partner was a lot better than Phaneuf's was...

Actually, maybe Hamrlik is the right comparable. Hammer is certainly a credible top-pairing defender, he does alright in tough competition and can carry a more limited partner, but he's not Markov or Subban's level.
Hamrlik would be about right in my eyes too. Not the guy you want leading your defense (unless it has Pittsburg or Vancouver levels of depth) but solid enough to be the second guy and could be the leader of a good second pairing. He has been horrifically snakebite in terms of goals lately and should probably get more credit for that, although for defensemen goal scoring isn't a particularly important skill.

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10-08-2011, 03:03 PM
  #97
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You are probably going to see that rebuild in the upcoming future with the likes of Subban, Emelin, Diaz, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Bennett, Dietz, and to a certain degree Didier, Pateryn and Sullivan. The possibility to have 6 good to great d-men in that punch is really there. Yet, we are talking about 5 years and more till you see their potential as a bunch.
Yeah, I agree. What to do the meantime other than hang on and hope for no more injuries.

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10-08-2011, 03:04 PM
  #98
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Everyone was so focused on getting the missing piece to the puzzle, the power forward, that the defense was forgotten. Now with Campoli out, even Math Man might have to admit we are running thin on the blue line.
Somewhat, but having a guy as good as Subban can paper over a lot of deficiencies until Markov comes back. And once Markov comes back, having those two guys in will make the unit one of the very best in the conference. The problem is lasting until then; it would have been preferable to give Diaz and Emelin more NHL experience before having to press them into significant service. But the Habs still have enough vets to build three credible pairings.

Besides, it's not like Montreal will be forced to ice genuinely crappy D-men like Sopel and Mara.

The problem with D is this: you only have 6 spots. You have guys you want to develop and guys who are on IR. If you lose a couple guys, you don't want to load up on replacements too much because once your guys come back from injury, they'll bump either guys you paid a lot to get or guys you want to give playing time to for development.

On age: Montreal's renewal strategy is much more sensible than the much-hyped and generally unsuccessful scorched-Earth approach. They gradually replace their oldest guys with younger guys. They have a good balance with older guys like Gill and Spacek, guys like Gorges and Diaz and Emelin who are in the mid-twenties, and guys like Subban and Weber who are very young. Next year, Gill and Spatch get bumped off, Diaz and Emelin are one-year NHL vets, Markov is the elder statesman, and they can fit in a rookie for development. And so on. The same sort of thing happens at forward. What you have to avoid is having too many old guys, like Ottawa did, where you have to rebuild because they all decline at the same time, and then you suck for a while because almost everyone you have is too green. That's also how Toronto got into their current pickle.


Last edited by MathMan: 10-08-2011 at 03:13 PM.
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Old
10-08-2011, 03:14 PM
  #99
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I am NOT a Leafs fan nor am I fan of Brian Burke, but like you, I think that Toronto has methodically rebuilt their defense. Their oldest defenseman is 30 years old and probably right near his prime. Most of the others are significantly younger, including Phaneuf, and have the potential to continue their development.

On the Habs roster we have 36 year old Hal Gill and 37 year old Jaro Spacek who are unlikely to improve or even maintain the level of play they achieved int he past. Yet they are going to play big minutes.

Everyone was so focused on getting the missing piece to the puzzle, the power forward, that the defense was forgotten. Now with Campoli out, even Math Man might have to admit we are running thin on the blue line.
Toronto's defense has gotten younger and more sustainable in the long term, this is true. The question of weather they have gotten any better remains.

Gill and Spacek's contracts are up this year and finding guys like that in free agency isn't hard with the amount of money Montreal has. Long term the big issue is Markov's return. If he's back and almost as good as his old self, a team with both Markov and Subban on its defense isn't going to need much to build a really strong unit, just a couple decent 2nd pairing guys and they may already have them in Gorges, Emelin and Diaz. Without him Montreal needs to find one or two legit top pairing defenders to build around Subban.

No doubt that the defense is in the middle of an overhaul (I'd argue it started last season with the graduation of Subban). There will be 3 UFA's next summer and no one but Markov has a contract. We're going to have to see how the young Europeans they added work out in the NHL before we can make long term projections though, they're they ones that determine if Montreal needs to import some talent for the next couple years or if they can handle their needs internally.

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10-08-2011, 08:29 PM
  #100
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After watching the Sens tonight, I would say we are light years ahead of them on defense (Gonchar is horrible) and every other position as well

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