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[THE INSTIGATOR] Open letter to Geoff Molson

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Old
10-08-2011, 11:04 AM
  #251
Maxpac
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
If you think fighting is so important to hockey you must have a very low opinion of the sport thinking it needs to resort to such base antics to get someone to watch. This would be like Nascar advertising "Now with more ACCIDENTS!!"

Every major sport outside of ones like boxing and MMA has fighting as illegal. Maybe it is time for Hockey to grow up and cast off these brain dead "fans" who don't want to lose their precious punch ups. I would rather watch a game of speed and talent over a game of retarded goons braining each other.
Yeah cause the 10 to 15 times a year that Habs fans have to "endure" a fight (we'll just pretend like not everybody is up their seats screaming when kne occurs) really ruins our sport. Honestly you and and everybody else that has that has opinion should really give their head a shake, seeing as we don't even have fights in Montreal and fighting is not a sign of immaturity, it's a unique attribute where 2 men can settle their differences or create emotion without relying 100% on refs.

It's so hypocritical of wanting to ban an aspect of the game that our GM doesn't feel the need to cover...

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Old
10-08-2011, 12:03 PM
  #252
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Face facts: Sometimes you get a game that lacks energy and passion, and all you see are guys skating around, floating about. I'd rather a guy out there with intensity and aggression spewing than a skilled guy who doesnt produce. Sometimes in those duller games, you need something to at least stand out of your seats for.
They also add immensely to rivalries.

Also, besides the home team scoring a goal, what's the next biggest thing that gets fans excited? A fight. Plain and simple. Then usually a big hit or some sort of amazing deke out.

Fighting is a part of the game. Removing it only adds to the restructuration process Bettman has been doing to get fans that dont really give a **** into the sport. Meanwhile he forgets about those who have always been watching.

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10-08-2011, 12:41 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
Face facts: Sometimes you get a game that lacks energy and passion, and all you see are guys skating around, floating about. I'd rather a guy out there with intensity and aggression spewing than a skilled guy who doesnt produce. Sometimes in those duller games, you need something to at least stand out of your seats for.
They also add immensely to rivalries.

Also, besides the home team scoring a goal, what's the next biggest thing that gets fans excited? A fight. Plain and simple. Then usually a big hit or some sort of amazing deke out.

Fighting is a part of the game. Removing it only adds to the restructuration process Bettman has been doing to get fans that dont really give a **** into the sport. Meanwhile he forgets about those who have always been watching.
Fighting brings energy to a game lacking it.

False - for every time that a fight did that, there is at least another case where a fight did not do anything. There are dozens of pointless staged fights with zero effect on the energy level. A good save, a good play, scoring a goal or stopping a 2 on 1 rush, a good hit can do it much better.

Fighting creates rivalries

False. Rivalries stronger than in hockey exist in sports without fighting, like soccer, baseball of football. Playing against a team and losing/winning is what creates rivalries. The rivalries you are talking about are "feuds" and found in Pro Wrestling.
There are fewer and less intense rivalries now because players are mercenaries that switch teams once every 2-3 years.

Fighting gets fans excited

Seeing dogs or roosters fight does it too. Seeing christians eaten by lions did it too a while ago. Doesn't make it right.

Fights are part of hockey

False - they are not explicitly discussed in the rules. There are no rules in the hockey book about how fights should take place and in what conditions. For fighting sports there are rules and refs to enforce them. Fighting is tolerated in the game as a side show for marketing reasons.

Soccer was initially played with the head of a Viking brigand as ball. Not any more. Things evolve.

Bettman wants to remove fights

Really ? If anything he always opposed any discussion on the topic because his target American audience (wresting watchers) actually want to see blood.

Fighting is not a sign of immaturity, it's a unique attribute where 2 men can settle their differences

Fighting (physically) someone because you think you are right is a sign of immaturity. Or, more likely, of not living in your time.
People used to fight a lot a few centuries ago. The social contract forbids it now.
It's like thinking that the best way to prevent crime is to keep a loaded gun in your house and shoot the thieves. Wait ... some people actually think that.

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Old
10-08-2011, 04:51 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I'm not comparing the two sports though. Read the blog. The only link here is the "excuses" used as player safety. That's where the comparison ends.


But in MMA or boxing, they take a heck of a lot more punches in those two fights.

The second point is answered above.
In MMA they don't take as many shots to the face as you'd think. There is a lot of grappling and a lot of body/limb strikes. Plus, the entire purpose for those sports is to fight. No other purpose exists for it. If people want to risk their long term health by fighting for a living then that is on them. Do it in a sport where you fight, not hockey.

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10-08-2011, 07:25 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
Fighting brings energy to a game lacking it.

False - for every time that a fight did that, there is at least another case where a fight did not do anything. There are dozens of pointless staged fights with zero effect on the energy level. A good save, a good play, scoring a goal or stopping a 2 on 1 rush, a good hit can do it much better.

Fighting creates rivalries

False. Rivalries stronger than in hockey exist in sports without fighting, like soccer, baseball of football. Playing against a team and losing/winning is what creates rivalries. The rivalries you are talking about are "feuds" and found in Pro Wrestling.
There are fewer and less intense rivalries now because players are mercenaries that switch teams once every 2-3 years.

Fighting gets fans excited

Seeing dogs or roosters fight does it too. Seeing christians eaten by lions did it too a while ago. Doesn't make it right.

Fights are part of hockey

False - they are not explicitly discussed in the rules. There are no rules in the hockey book about how fights should take place and in what conditions. For fighting sports there are rules and refs to enforce them. Fighting is tolerated in the game as a side show for marketing reasons.

Soccer was initially played with the head of a Viking brigand as ball. Not any more. Things evolve.

Bettman wants to remove fights

Really ? If anything he always opposed any discussion on the topic because his target American audience (wresting watchers) actually want to see blood.

Fighting is not a sign of immaturity, it's a unique attribute where 2 men can settle their differences

Fighting (physically) someone because you think you are right is a sign of immaturity. Or, more likely, of not living in your time.
People used to fight a lot a few centuries ago. The social contract forbids it now.
It's like thinking that the best way to prevent crime is to keep a loaded gun in your house and shoot the thieves. Wait ... some people actually think that.
Sorry bro, but a passive sport like baseball doesnt do well for rivalries. You can say Yanks/sox and I'll counter with Habs/Bruins and tell you without any hesitation that it's a better rivalry, in part because emotions always do broil over and they lead to intense games with great hits, lots of smack talk and some fighting.

You can go 15 games before anything exciting happens in a baseball rivalry.

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Old
10-08-2011, 07:28 PM
  #256
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Cherry definately tells it like it is. "YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO SEE HITS LIKE STEVENS USED TO DO"....and then BOOM! 2 days ago, Phaneuf hits DaCosts Stevens style....You're great Don. Just retire.

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10-08-2011, 08:48 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Cherry definately tells it like it is. "YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO SEE HITS LIKE STEVENS USED TO DO"....and then BOOM! 2 days ago, Phaneuf hits DaCosts Stevens style....You're great Don. Just retire.
Not to mention those hits he showed were ones that did things like ruin Paul Kariya's career. I'm pretty sure we can do without those ones.

Banning head shots forces players to stop trying to destroy another with their elbows. It doesn't take hitting out of the game, just makes them use a cleaner type of hit.

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10-08-2011, 10:45 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
2 things

1) An NHL enforcer is taking shots to the head multiple times a week for 8 months, a boxer is taking a bunch of shots to the head but only 2 nights a year, and its not bare fisted

2) The entire purpose of boxing is to hit. Fighting is supposed to be a rare event when emotions boil over in hockey, but rarely does that fight happen now. Now its morphed into boxing on ice. We make a big deal of guys like Rypien and Boogaard succumbing to the mental effects of fighting, but what we don't realize is that these guys never should have had the opportunity to play in this league. The very fact that there is a culture in the game that wants those kind of guys in it is a problem.
You are posting bull **** on the internet (what I bolded).

Do you understand depression? Do you understand suicide? Do you understand that people who have never taken a punch in their entire life commit suicide? And suffer depression?

Unless you have walked in Rypien's and Boogaard's shoes, you are doing nothing more than spreading bull ****. You have no idea why they took their lives. And its idiotic to blame it on fighting.

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Old
10-08-2011, 10:48 PM
  #259
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Did the old fart tone down his BS

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10-08-2011, 10:53 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
That was a reasonable post. But I have to ask you: Do you like anything about hockey except hitting and fighting? These are enjoyable parts of the game to be sure, but hitting is only means to slow skill. You are getting it the wrong way round.

And fighting was originally about one on one revenge for dirty play. That is all it was. One on one. If you give me a cheap shot, I will fight you. Not my team mate over there, me.

Proxy fighting is a joke, always has been. When Richard or Howe got speared, they fought. That's real NHL fighting, and it hardly exists now, because we accept the joke idea of proxy fighters. I do not. They have no place in the game. Only exception is if my center gets knocked out by a cheap shot I will fight for him, because he can't, but otherwise, he will do his own fighting. That's the way it should be.

I have to wonder at your understanding of what hockey is really about. Hockey is about pure skating and speed above all, and passing and shooting. Hitting, a great part of hockey when it is clean, was adopted by less skilled players to slow the skilled players down. That's all.

Hockey in its basic form is played by guys with tremendous skill and talent. It is not played primarily for hitting and fighting.

You need to have grown up playing the game to know this. I did, and I stand by my deep understanding of the game. I could kiss fighting goodbye tomorrow, and also kiss almost all hitting except the good clean body check goodbye too. No loss, zero loss to hockey.
Thanks for your honesty in admitting that you are wondering what I enjoy about hockey. Because the rest of your post shows that you do not know anything about why I love hockey above all other sports. So your assumptions are off base.

The only reason I advocate having a tough team with players who can fight is because the rest of the teams in the League have them. Disarming unilaterally without the ability to stand up for your teammates is foolish. In fact, it is an invitation for other teams to resort to thuggish behavior.

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10-08-2011, 11:06 PM
  #261
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nm.........

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10-08-2011, 11:21 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
Sorry bro, but a passive sport like baseball doesnt do well for rivalries. You can say Yanks/sox and I'll counter with Habs/Bruins and tell you without any hesitation that it's a better rivalry, in part because emotions always do broil over and they lead to intense games with great hits, lots of smack talk and some fighting.

You can go 15 games before anything exciting happens in a baseball rivalry.
So - out of all my arguments, the only one you found to counter was that one ? Rivalries in baseball are weaker than in hockey ? You're probably wrong but I don't know enough about baseball to discuss it.

However, I counter with soccer. Or college football. No fights there - you wonder how it is even possible to think about rivalries...

Watch most games of the NFL - they have smack talk, great hits, emotions always broil over.... yet no fights.

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10-08-2011, 11:32 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Thanks for your honesty in admitting that you are wondering what I enjoy about hockey. Because the rest of your post shows that you do not know anything about why I love hockey above all other sports. So your assumptions are off base.

The only reason I advocate having a tough team with players who can fight is because the rest of the teams in the League have them. Disarming unilaterally without the ability to stand up for your teammates is foolish. In fact, it is an invitation for other teams to resort to thuggish behavior.
reading comprehension...

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10-08-2011, 11:43 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are posting bull **** on the internet (what I bolded).

Do you understand depression? Do you understand suicide? Do you understand that people who have never taken a punch in their entire life commit suicide? And suffer depression?

Unless you have walked in Rypien's and Boogaard's shoes, you are doing nothing more than spreading bull ****. You have no idea why they took their lives. And its idiotic to blame it on fighting.
So - if we cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that fights were the direct and unique cause of the three suicides then fights should not be blamed ? Are we in a court of law ?

I wonder if you do understand depression and suicide as much as you say. I've worked in suicide research and prevention for more than 14 years. Though research has been done since Durkheim there are no certitudes on what causes or not suicidal behavior. The best way to describe it right now is through "risk factors" and "protection factors".

Even depression is merely a risk factor - not even a strong one though drug companies try to push it (some researchers even claimed that the use of antidepressants in teenagers actually increase the risk of suicide) . Most people who live a major depressive episode do not commit suicide, and in many cases you cannot document a depressive state in psychological autopsies of suicides.

You know what are risk factors ? Being a man. Middle aged. Living through serious job and relational difficulties. Drug and alcohol abuse.

And research also says that repeated concussions in athletes are a factor associated to suicide - check this http://www.suicide.org/concussions-c...o-suicide.html And it's not about hockey and it's not the "evil media asking for fight banning".

Hockey fights lead to repeated concussions. Hockey fighters use drugs (as confirmed by Morissette and others) and alcohol. They usually do not have the happiest family lives. They probably go through repeated depressive episodes, since their job status and personal image is vulnerable. And they are not good at asking for help since they are the very symbol of "manliness" in sports.

So yes, hockey fights are a risk factor for suicide. In a scientific language, you can say with some degree of confidence that being a hockey fighter will probably greatly increase the risk of committing suicide later in your life compared to the general population.

Sure, right now the question is raised and asked because of the sensationalist side of the media that jumped on the opportunity in order to increase ratings. It does not make the question less valid though.

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10-08-2011, 11:52 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
reading comprehension...
Insignificant one liner........

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10-09-2011, 12:12 AM
  #266
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So - if we cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that fights were the direct and unique cause of the three suicides then fights should not be blamed ? Are we in a court of law ?

I wonder if you do understand depression and suicide as much as you say. I've worked in suicide research and prevention for more than 14 years. Though research has been done since Durkheim there are no certitudes on what causes or not suicidal behavior. The best way to describe it right now is through "risk factors" and "protection factors".

Even depression is merely a risk factor - not even a strong one though drug companies try to push it (some researchers even claimed that the use of antidepressants in teenagers actually increase the risk of suicide) . Most people who live a major depressive episode do not commit suicide, and in many cases you cannot document a depressive state in psychological autopsies of suicides.

You know what are risk factors ? Being a man. Middle aged. Living through serious job and relational difficulties. Drug and alcohol abuse.

And research also says that repeated concussions in athletes are a factor associated to suicide - check this http://www.suicide.org/concussions-c...o-suicide.html And it's not about hockey and it's not the "evil media asking for fight banning".

Hockey fights lead to repeated concussions. Hockey fighters use drugs (as confirmed by Morissette and others) and alcohol. They usually do not have the happiest family lives. They probably go through repeated depressive episodes, since their job status and personal image is vulnerable. And they are not good at asking for help since they are the very symbol of "manliness" in sports.

So yes, hockey fights are a risk factor for suicide. In a scientific language, you can say with some degree of confidence that being a hockey fighter will probably greatly increase the risk of committing suicide later in your life compared to the general population.

Sure, right now the question is raised and asked because of the sensationalist side of the media that jumped on the opportunity in order to increase ratings. It does not make the question less valid though.
Yes, I understand depression and suicide.

And I understand and am well aware of risk factors.

However, it is disingenuous to say that hockey fighters "use drugs and alcohol. They usually do not have the happiest family lives" as if that is exclusive to hockey fighters.

There are countless numbers of business people, housewives, doctors, lawyers, college students who do not participate in contact sports that "use drugs and alcohol. They usually do not have the happiest family lives" who end up taking their own lives.

Should we question those people, the business people, the housewives, the doctors, the lawyers, the college students, and suggest that their profession or chosen activity in life is a "risk factor" when it comes to suicide?

I understand and know very well the chemical makeup of the brain and any imbalance probably will be detrimental to one's mental health. Add to that alcohol and drug abuse, the outcomes generally are not that good.

It is a very fair statement to make that countless more non-athletic people take their lives every day compared to athletes who engage in physical contact.

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10-09-2011, 12:34 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Yes, I understand depression and suicide.

And I understand and am well aware of risk factors.

However, it is disingenuous to say that hockey fighters "use drugs and alcohol. They usually do not have the happiest family lives" as if that is exclusive to hockey fighters.

There are countless numbers of business people, housewives, doctors, lawyers, college students who do not participate in contact sports that "use drugs and alcohol. They usually do not have the happiest family lives" who end up taking their own lives.

Should we question those people, the business people, the housewives, the doctors, the lawyers, the college students, and suggest that their profession or chosen activity in life is a "risk factor" when it comes to suicide?

I understand and know very well the chemical makeup of the brain and any imbalance probably will be detrimental to one's mental health. Add to that alcohol and drug abuse, the outcomes generally are not that good.

It is a very fair statement to make that countless more non-athletic people take their lives every day compared to athletes who engage in physical contact.
It's a matter of proportion. How many hockey fighters were there in the NHL ? No idea, but let's assume a thousand. And let's assume the 3 were the only ones ever happening. That's already a lot more than in the other groups that you cited.

In fact the professions that have the highest suicide rates are usually the ones related to heath care - medical doctors, dentists (reports are controversial) etc. Probably stress related.

Suicide research deals with this kind of stuff. Statistics say that group X has a higher incidence. You build a theoretical model on why it could happen (Why do smokers suicide more than non smokers ? Why is suicide higher in Quebec than in the rest of Canada? and so on) There is usually no reliable scientific (and ethical) method to test the model, to experiment or do longitudinal studies. So, if the model is convincing enough, people will take it and use it for prevention purposes. Sometimes suicide decreases - and you can't really say if it's because of what was done or...just happened.

The theoretical model on why hockey fighters might be at higher risk of suicide is very convincing right now. Convincing enough to justify preventive measures. Your position is basically "you can't prove it so it's not true"

Anyway - you are not really discussing with me here - your whole post was straw man stuff.

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10-09-2011, 01:42 AM
  #268
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Does anyone actually really even enjoy watching hockey fights? Like I know anytime people suggest change a lot of people will whine about it and that's fine but really, I like fighting as much as the next guy. I like boxing and MMA but hockey fights are often tedious, irrelevant wrestling matches.They're usually incredibly boring and actually interrupt the flow of the game.

As for Cherry, he got quite a bit of facts wrong in his rant but do people even really take him seriously anymore?
Nope, I very rarely even pay attention when one starts. Most are awkward looking wrestling matches, although despite this, I do understand their necessity, at least from the player's perspective. People need something to burn off frustrating, in addition it can be a decent motivator or a means of policing. Stu, one of the people Cherry attacked, made an excellent point. Without fighting, players would take far more liberties regardless of whatever suspensions are imposed. My opinion remains, so long as the players feel fighting has a place, then it does. This is their game more than outside third parties who "have their best interest at heart."

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10-09-2011, 04:37 AM
  #269
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Nope, I very rarely even pay attention when one starts. Most are awkward looking wrestling matches, although despite this, I do understand their necessity, at least from the player's perspective. People need something to burn off frustrating, in addition it can be a decent motivator or a means of policing. Stu, one of the people Cherry attacked, made an excellent point. Without fighting, players would take far more liberties regardless of whatever suspensions are imposed. My opinion remains, so long as the players feel fighting has a place, then it does. This is their game more than outside third parties who "have their best interest at heart."
I disagree. Football is a much more physical sport than hockey and you don't see the lack of fighting resulting in a series of cheapshots.

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10-09-2011, 04:48 AM
  #270
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You are posting bull **** on the internet (what I bolded).

Do you understand depression? Do you understand suicide? Do you understand that people who have never taken a punch in their entire life commit suicide? And suffer depression?

Unless you have walked in Rypien's and Boogaard's shoes, you are doing nothing more than spreading bull ****. You have no idea why they took their lives. And its idiotic to blame it on fighting.
Why is it that the hockey players that do have drug and alcohol troubles are disproportionately those who would be considered enforcers? You could make the argument that they may have become enforcers because they were already exposed to forces early in their lives that lead them to be more violent individuals and thus more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol. I can accept that argument.

However even if that was the case living a life of violence and getting punched in the head for a living only increases the effects of their lifestyle. They become more prone to concussions which lead to increased depression which only pushes them more toward drugs and alcohol. The fact that you are encouraging this is a damning statement on hockey culture.

The simple fact is that players who sole purpose is to fight have no business being in the game regardless of what you think about concussions. People generally just don't abuse drugs and alcohol because they made some bad choices. This isn't some after school special. There are forces which push them in that direction.

Look at Theoren Fleury as a prime example. His struggles with substance abuse are well documented and the causes are quite clear in his case with the history of sexual abuse.

You can go on and pretend that guys like Rypien and Boogaard simply got depressed and began abusing drugs and alcohol out of nowhere, but I prefer to live in the real world and there is a clear link between the type of players that live these troubled lives and their on ice roles. You and Don Cherry can continue to ignore the evidence and be apart of the problem or you can open your eyes and become part of the solution.

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10-09-2011, 04:52 AM
  #271
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Insignificant one liner........
considering it went from understanding (his word) to enjoying (yours), not really...

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10-09-2011, 07:20 AM
  #272
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Cherry definately tells it like it is. "YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO SEE HITS LIKE STEVENS USED TO DO"....and then BOOM! 2 days ago, Phaneuf hits DaCosts Stevens style....You're great Don. Just retire.
Dont forget about the poor catchers in baseball who get hit once every year or two without complaints.

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10-09-2011, 10:29 AM
  #273
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Dont forget about the poor catchers in baseball who get hit once every year or two without complaints.
That was seriously hilarious. The lengths some people will go to in order to defend their opinion is quite comical.

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10-09-2011, 11:36 AM
  #274
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Did the old fart tone down his BS
The guy made a carreer and his fortune (rock"em, suck'em videos) on goon's play.

He should just ****.

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10-09-2011, 12:20 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That was seriously hilarious. The lengths some people will go to in order to defend their opinion is quite comical.
Yeah its retarded. I caught for 10+ years and got bowled. Plus using a league that took years longer than any other league just to use instant replay shouldnt be something that is used to support a "the times are changing but shouldnt" argument.

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