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Why isn't #12 under the rafters of the Verizon Center yet?

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Old
10-01-2011, 12:19 AM
  #26
usiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingCapsFan View Post
Bondra's career almost perfectly spanned the "dead puck" era. If he had been born 10 years before or 10 years after, he would have scored 700 goals.

So he gets dismissed by know-nothings as a guy who barely scored 500 goals and doesn't belong in the HOF discussions.

Bull.

If you look at his stats, based on his peers, he is the second best goal scorer of his generation (after Jagr).

Langway saved the franchise.

After that, I'm not sure how you put anybody above Bondra.
The fanboy in me would love that Bondra get his number retired. Hell the only authentic jersey I won is a 1992 Bondra jersey. But one has to look also at the league especially the older franchises. Caps messed up on retiring some numbers that shouldn't have.

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10-01-2011, 06:46 AM
  #27
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absolutely no chance? ok. absolutes are a tough thing to make work a lot of times. 500 goals in 100 games and change. at more than a glance almost all of the players above Bondra on that goal scoring list are in save for Verbeek who played more than 1400 games to get a handful of goals more and players like Roenick that have only recently left the game.

No chance? I am still struck by the idea that Pivo has more stature than Bondra. In what universe? Is there parallel time stream where Pivo and Fedorov swap bios?

Use....I agree the Caps over used the retirement on 7 and maybe 32. HHOF'rs get their jersey's retired as a rule. What's more silly? Retiring 7 or not retiring your team's 3rd HHOF member because they retired 7. At somepoint...i suppose after death, the Caps will unretire 7.

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10-01-2011, 08:55 AM
  #28
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Not that it matters, but in response to an earlier question, Jeff Friesen wore #12 for awhile before chaining it midway through his season with the caps.

I know, relevant.

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10-01-2011, 09:41 AM
  #29
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yea, i remember that now. i remember that halpern wore 11, which as a caps fan from a kid was an interesting choice.

btw...i am still bumbed that nobody is wearing 14.

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Old
10-01-2011, 09:56 AM
  #30
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I could go either way. I figure you either retire both 12 and 37 or neither.

And I continue to be amused by Foy's totally irrational hatred of Bonzai.

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Old
10-01-2011, 10:35 AM
  #31
WanderingCapsFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usiel View Post
Caps messed up on retiring some numbers that shouldn't have.
I agree with that. Should probably be just 5.

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Old
10-01-2011, 11:34 AM
  #32
Millhaus
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
The fact that team achievements influence Hall of Fame voting...
It is what it is. Great players go in regardless of how much team success they had but merely really good players require team success on top of that. Neither Mullen nor Bondra were great but 3 rings are 3 rings.

Gillies didn't get in because of his 300+ goals and almost 700 points. He got in because he was an important part of a 4 cup dynasty. The first thing you see when you look at Glenn Anderson is the 6 rings and fantastic playoff production not the almost 500 goals and almost 1100 points.

Again it is what it is and Bondra not being great and not having a ring is going to keep him out...

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Old
10-01-2011, 11:47 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Again it is what it is and Bondra not being great and not having a ring is going to keep him out...
sonny jurgensen. chris hanburger. are they not in the nfl hall of fame? were they not both players that largely played on losing teams, finished without a championship and only one super bowl season? whats the difference between bondra in the nhl and hanburger in the nfl?

did dino win a cup? did he play in the finals more than bondra?

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Old
10-01-2011, 11:48 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by WanderingCapsFan View Post
If you look at his stats, based on his peers, he is the second best goal scorer of his generation (after Jagr).
Yeah no...

During the years that span Bondra's career his goal total ranks 7th.


Last edited by Millhaus: 10-01-2011 at 12:21 PM.
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Old
10-01-2011, 11:59 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
sonny jurgensen. chris hanburger. are they not in the nfl hall of fame? were they not both players that largely played on losing teams, finished without a championship and only one super bowl season? whats the difference between bondra in the nhl and hanburger in the nfl?

did dino win a cup? did he play in the finals more than bondra?
The point stands that he wasn't great. He was very good. He led the league in goals once -in a season that was shortened and a season in which Lemieux did not play. Once more he tied for the league lead in goals with Selanne, edging LeClair and Bure by one goal.

He was very good. And one of the best forwards to ever play for the Caps. But he wasn't great.

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Old
10-01-2011, 12:09 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
sonny jurgensen. chris hanburger. are they not in the nfl hall of fame? were they not both players that largely played on losing teams, finished without a championship and only one super bowl season? whats the difference between bondra in the nhl and hanburger in the nfl?

did dino win a cup? did he play in the finals more than bondra?
I apologize as I didn't make up what appears to be the criteria for getting in the hockey HoF. I also don't see the relevance of finding what you consider to be similar players in different sports and using them as examples for why you think Bondra will/should get in. Find me a hockey player or two who is in the HoF that you find comparable to Bondra, both in career goals/points and team success as those are what appears to be the overriding factors as to who gets in and who doesn't.

And I'm sorry but there is a big difference between 600+ goals and 1200 points and 500+ goals and not even 900 points. Ciccarelli ranks 17th and 45th all time respectively in goals and points. Bondra ranks 39th and 98th.

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Old
10-01-2011, 12:54 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Yeah no...

During the years that span Bondra's career his goal total ranks 7th.
Sorry..........#2 during the "Dead Puck" era. 94/95 -> Lockout. 2nd to Jagr.

My bad.

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Old
10-01-2011, 01:22 PM
  #38
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If you just use those years as your basis then I think you could make just as good a case for Ziggy Palffy as you could Bondra and I don't know of anyone who thinks Palffy is a HoFer.

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Old
10-01-2011, 03:14 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
If you just use those years as your basis then I think you could make just as good a case for Ziggy Palffy as you could Bondra and I don't know of anyone who thinks Palffy is a HoFer.
My only point is that Bondra's career was almost entirely in the dead-puck era. So his 503 goals (500 goals at least puts you in the conversation for HOF) are worth a heck of a lot more than the goals earned during the 1980's (for example)......that his 503 is a heck of a lot better than it looks on the surface. And to just dismiss him as a one-dimensional goal scorer who barely made 500 goals is not a fair analysis.

Ziggy Palffy has 329 career goals, and no one is making the case that he is a HOFer.

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Old
10-01-2011, 04:05 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by WanderingCapsFan View Post
My only point is that Bondra's career was almost entirely in the dead-puck era. So his 503 goals (500 goals at least puts you in the conversation for HOF) are worth a heck of a lot more than the goals earned during the 1980's (for example)......that his 503 is a heck of a lot better than it looks on the surface. And to just dismiss him as a one-dimensional goal scorer who barely made 500 goals is not a fair analysis.

Ziggy Palffy has 329 career goals, and no one is making the case that he is a HOFer.
And I am saying if your argument for Bondra was his 'dead puck' era production then Palffy's production from the same era was arguably superior. And if your argument is his career production then during similar career periods Weight, Damphousse, Fleury, Mogilny, and Turgeon all had more productive careers and I don't feel any of them are HoF worthy either.

Bondra was a very good player but not a great one. He was never a 1st or 2nd team NHL all star even when he was leading the league in goal scoring.

I like Bondra. I loved watching him play. One of my favorite experiences as a Caps fan was sitting in the MCI center and they announced he had just resigned and then he went out and had a hattrick against the Leafs. I don't hold a grudge against him for anything that happened after he left the Caps. But 500 goals and pretty much nothing else does not equal HoFer IMO no matter how you want to slice it up...

But I will say I agree with Foy in that 30 years down the road I could see him getting in under the veterans category.

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Old
10-01-2011, 04:18 PM
  #41
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Foy in a Bondra thread, spewing player hate....shocker!

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Old
10-01-2011, 04:41 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
And I am saying if your argument for Bondra was his 'dead puck' era production then Palffy's production from the same era was arguably superior. And if your argument is his career production then during similar career periods Weight, Damphousse, Fleury, Mogilny, and Turgeon all had more productive careers and I don't feel any of them are HoF worthy either.

Bondra was a very good player but not a great one. He was never a 1st or 2nd team NHL all star even when he was leading the league in goal scoring.

I like Bondra. I loved watching him play. One of my favorite experiences as a Caps fan was sitting in the MCI center and they announced he had just resigned and then he went out and had a hattrick against the Leafs. I don't hold a grudge against him for anything that happened after he left the Caps. But 500 goals and pretty much nothing else does not equal HoFer IMO no matter how you want to slice it up...

But I will say I agree with Foy in that 30 years down the road I could see him getting in under the veterans category.
I agree with much of what you say. I admit Bondra is a borderline-at-best HOFer.

This thread is about the rafters. Are there too many #'s up there now? Yes. But what is the criteria? If Gartner is up there, then Bondra easily should be. Retired #'s should be about what you did with that team. Bondra has 75 more goals with the Capitals than Gartner. Bondra led the Capitals in goals 8 times, Gartner 5 times.

Is it because Gartner is a HOFer? That's crappy criteria. Why isn't Larry Murphy's # retired then? Will we retire 68 when Jagr goes into the HOF (put a bullet in my brain!)?

I think we should take down everything except 5 (and maybe 32). But with what is up there now, 12 should be a no-brainer.


Last edited by WanderingCapsFan: 10-01-2011 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Stray letters
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Old
10-01-2011, 05:26 PM
  #43
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neither murphy nor certainly jagr are known for their careers primarily as a capital. thats not true of gartner. bondra will only be remembered as a capital. i think bondra is borderline as well. but if a player plays the vast majority of his career with the capitals and has all of his best seasons as a capital and earns the hall of fame, i'd expect his number to be retired.

its occurred to me that if ted were on his game, he would create a capitals hall of fame. there would then be a sure place for olie kolzig. there would be a place to honor kelly miller who was a special player, but not a star. worthy of being remembered. should they open that up, they could with that move yvon labre from the rafters to the team hall and that fixes a lot of evils.

i mean, you have to think that even labre has to be ready for that.

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Old
10-01-2011, 07:44 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by WanderingCapsFan View Post
I agree with much of what you say. I admit Bondra is a borderline-at-best HOFer.

This thread is about the rafters. Are there too many #'s up there now? Yes. But what is the criteria? If Gartner is up there, then Bondra easily should be. Retired #'s should be about what you did with that team. Bondra has 75 more goals with the Capitals than Gartner. Bondra led the Capitals in goals 8 times, Gartner 5 times.

Is it because Gartner is a HOFer? That's crappy criteria. Why isn't Larry Murphy's # retired then? Will we retire 68 when Jagr goes into the HOF (put a bullet in my brain!)?

I think we should take down everything except 5 (and maybe 32). But with what is up there now, 12 should be a no-brainer.
I definitely feel Bondra deserves his number to be retired by the Caps, and I feel the same way about Kolzig. I don't feel a player need to be a HoFer to deserve to have his number retired by a franchise. Langway was a no brainer for that, and the HoF, and I feel Hunter, Bondra, and Kolzig are all in pretty much the same category. Gartner played almost 10 of his 19 NHL seasons in DC and he was very good during those years so I am ok with his jersey being retired but it is pretty borderline IMO, though he is a without a doubt HoFer. Labre I have no idea why they did that.

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Old
10-01-2011, 09:06 PM
  #45
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Labre I have no idea why they did that.
Yeah, someone needs to say, OK that was a brain-fart, let's pull #7 down.

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Old
10-08-2011, 08:02 PM
  #46
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Can we please call a moritorium on retiring numbers? Honoring the builders of a team is great, but until we've won anything it's pretty ridiculous. If. we win five Cups in the next decade, then I'd love to see my favorite player (Bondra)'s number retired.
As it is, wearing number 12 in Washington is a faux pas - see Jeff Friesen - so there is little risk of disgrace.

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