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Old
10-08-2011, 10:00 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
What Mittons said. I'm not sure why anyone thinks it's some sort of slight moving Matt Read to our already talented 4th line. 1 goal and some scoring chances doesn't lock your 3rd line spot down.
he's playing a lot better than Hartnell. Hartnell is basically on the 4th line now...was 3rd lowest on ice time (11:24)...only played more than Nodl (10:30) and Rinaldo (7 mins).

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10-08-2011, 10:00 PM
  #27
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It does when that rookie is Brayden Schenn, and you traded your captain for him.
So... just because he is highly thought of, a player who is doing very well, and putting points on the board loses his spot to another rookie.

I can say as a coach myself, I disagree with that statement. I like Schenn alot but you dont just make room for the hell of it.

But like Banger said. Hartnell is doing pretty f'ing ****** and Read had a tremendous game.... but we are going to move Read down and not Hartnell.

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10-08-2011, 10:02 PM
  #28
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So... just because he is highly thought of, a player who is doing very well, and putting points on the board loses his spot to another rookie.

I can say as a coach myself, I disagree with that statement. I like Schenn alot but you dont just make room for the hell of it.

But like Banger said. Hartnell is doing pretty f'ing ****** and Read had a tremendous game.... but we are going to move Read down and not Hartnell.
So would you put Schenn on the 4th line? Or just keep him in the AHL until one of the lines gets cold.

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10-08-2011, 10:03 PM
  #29
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So would you put Schenn on the 4th line? Or just keep him in the AHL until one of the lines gets cold.
No I'd either move Hartnell or Couts.

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10-08-2011, 10:03 PM
  #30
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So would you put Schenn on the 4th line? Or just keep him in the AHL until one of the lines gets cold.
I'd leave him in the AHL right now. Why change things up when everything is working? Or you move Hartnell down. Honestly, I like Hartnell alot and you can go through my previous posts about him (one of the few people that have defended him) but so far he has been horrendous.

I just dont beleive that a player deserves a spot just based off of draft position. Also I dont beleive in changing things when something is working. Thats the John Stevens way of thinking right there.

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10-08-2011, 10:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
So... just because he is highly thought of, a player who is doing very well, and putting points on the board loses his spot to another rookie.

I can say as a coach myself, I disagree with that statement. I like Schenn alot but you dont just make room for the hell of it.

But like Banger said. Hartnell is doing pretty f'ing ****** and Read had a tremendous game.... but we are going to move Read down and not Hartnell.
Ya I mean what kind of message does that send to the team? "It doesnt matter how welly ou play for us, we are still going to give other's spots just because of politics" I could see if it was a more veteran player but if you demote read after playing so well and being productive just because, it could really affect his mental game, and destroy confidence.

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10-08-2011, 10:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I'd leave him in the AHL right now. Why change things up when everything is working? Or you move Hartnell down. Honestly, I like Hartnell alot and you can go through my previous posts about him (one of the few people that have defended him) but so far he has been horrendous.
one nice pass on the Read goal but other than that, 2 steps behind all the time, not physical, not in the net (once I remember in the Boston game he was tripping over Thomas) but with that cap number and the teams cap problems he has to start playing quick IMO.

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10-08-2011, 10:07 PM
  #33
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I'd love to see them go with 4 legit lines (that means no Shelley).

JVR-Giroux-Jagr; Hartnell-Briere-Voracek; Read-Schenn-Simmonds; Talbot-Couturier-Nodl/Rinaldo.
That fourth line right there has shut down written all over it. It has to be as good a fourth line as anybody else's. It would keep everyone fresh and we won't cringe everytime the fourth line is out there.

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10-08-2011, 10:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
No I'd either move Hartnell or Couts.
That's equally as ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I'd leave him in the AHL right now. Why change things up when everything is working? Or you move Hartnell down. Honestly, I like Hartnell alot and you can go through my previous posts about him (one of the few people that have defended him) but so far he has been horrendous.

I just dont beleive that a player deserves a spot just based off of draft position. Also I dont beleive in changing things when something is working. Thats the John Stevens way of thinking right there.
I don't see how Hartnell is playing terribly. He doesn't have the chances that Read has created, that I will agree with. But Read has made some big turnovers in the first two games as well. Again, we're acting like 1 goal and this guy should be on the top line with Giroux. It wasn't even an impressive goal, he shot into Brodeur. Marty stops that 9 times out of 10.

And likewise with Read, I'm not bashing him. I've been front and center on his bandwagon since June before anyone knew anything about him. I don't mind bumping Hartnell to the 4th, but idk what that'd do to the guy. We've already traded his entire clique. And again, a 3rd line of 3 rookies could be disasterous. A 4th line of Read-Talbot-Nodl can pull equal minutes of that 3rd line.

It's not a bad thing having 12 dangerous forwards. Just gotta make everyone happy.

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10-08-2011, 10:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
That's equally as ridiculous.
Why? Nodl-Couts-Talbot would be one hell of a line. Talbot/Couts kill penalties together and it would allow you bring him along at the teams desired speed. He'll hit ruts and being able to hide him on the 4th in game 65 and get him 9 or 10 mins is a big bonus. It's a marathon and he's an 18 year old kid...you don't want to burn him out to early. He'll be on the PK which are hard minutes.

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10-08-2011, 10:14 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
That's equally as ridiculous.



I don't see how Hartnell is playing terribly. He doesn't have the chances that Read has created, that I will agree with. But Read has made some big turnovers in the first two games as well. Again, we're acting like 1 goal and this guy should be on the top line with Giroux. It wasn't even a good goal, he shot into Brodeur. Marty stops that 9 times out of 10.

And likewise with Read, I'm not bashing him. I've been front and center on his bandwagon since June before anyone knew anything about him. I don't mind bumping Hartnell to the 4th, but idk what that'd do to the guy. We've already traded his entire clique. And again, a 3rd line of 3 rookies could be disasterous. A 4th line of Read-Talbot-Nodl can pull equal minutes of that 3rd line.

It's not a bad thing having 12 dangerous forwards. Just gotta make everyone happy.
But honestly though, how can you go and move Read down after his play? Alright he has had some turnovers, but so has JVR, Giroux, Jagr, Timonen, Couturier, Pronger, Carle (he had like 7 this game), etc etc. Everyone has turnovers. I just dont think at the moment, you can go into the Vancouver game justifying moving Read down to the 4th line and giving Schenn a 3rd line position.

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10-08-2011, 10:27 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
Why? Nodl-Couts-Talbot would be one hell of a line. Talbot/Couts kill penalties together and it would allow you bring him along at the teams desired speed. He'll hit ruts and being able to hide him on the 4th in game 65 and get him 9 or 10 mins is a big bonus. It's a marathon and he's an 18 year old kid...you don't want to burn him out to early. He'll be on the PK which are hard minutes.
I agree, but Couturier has earned the 3rd line spot imo. His ability to make smart decisions in all zones is pretty remarkable for an 18 year old in his 2nd game.

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But honestly though, how can you go and move Read down after his play? Alright he has had some turnovers, but so has JVR, Giroux, Jagr, Timonen, Couturier, Pronger, Carle (he had like 7 this game), etc etc. Everyone has turnovers. I just dont think at the moment, you can go into the Vancouver game justifying moving Read down to the 4th line and giving Schenn a 3rd line position.
It's all hypothetically based around whether or not Schenn would get called up, which I don't think he will yet. I'm sticking with it for the reasons I mentioned, Hartnell and Schenn over Read. Based off draft position? That's taking it a bit far. But based off expectation? Absolutely. Holmgren compares this kid to Mike Richards before he even plays a game for us, he's not starting out on the 4th line.

Hartnell may very well be most deserving of the demotion at this point, the sample size of games we've seen isn't enough for us to demote or promote guys. We know what we can expect from Hartnell...gritty play (sometimes 2 way), willing to bang bodies, battle in the corners, stand in front of the net, get ~50pts. He hasn't even taken a penalty yet! The guy was on our 1a line 16 months ago, and in 2 games he deserves to be demoted 3 lines? And again...a line with 3 rookies on it, no matter how big, skilled, or mature...isn't a good thing.

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10-08-2011, 10:31 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I agree, but Couturier has earned the 3rd line spot imo. His ability to make smart decisions in all zones is pretty remarkable for an 18 year old in his 2nd game.



It's all hypothetically based around whether or not Schenn would get called up, which I don't think he will yet. I'm sticking with it for the reasons I mentioned, Hartnell and Schenn over Read. Based off draft position? That's taking it a bit far. But based off expectation? Absolutely. Holmgren compares this kid to Mike Richards before he even plays a game for us, he's not starting out on the 4th line.

Hartnell may very well be most deserving of the demotion at this point, the sample size of games we've seen isn't enough for us to demote or promote guys. We know what we can expect from Hartnell...gritty play (sometimes 2 way), willing to bang bodies, battle in the corners, stand in front of the net, get ~50pts. He hasn't even taken a penalty yet! The guy was on our 1a line 16 months ago, and in 2 games he deserves to be demoted 3 lines? And again...a line with 3 rookies on it, no matter how big, skilled, or mature...isn't a good thing.
Hartnell has already been demoted...he had less than a minute more than Nodl for the 3rd worst time among forwards. He's getting no PP time, no PK. He needs to do something to increase his numbers or else they will go down and Nodl will be playing more than him (Nodl has played better so far).

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10-08-2011, 10:48 PM
  #39
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Hartnell has already been demoted...he had less than a minute more than Nodl for the 3rd worst time among forwards. He's getting no PP time, no PK. He needs to do something to increase his numbers or else they will go down and Nodl will be playing more than him (Nodl has played better so far).
Nodl typically plays the PK and Hartnell doesn't, and considering how often we've been on it...those TOI totals explain a lot.

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10-09-2011, 01:22 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Hartnell may very well be most deserving of the demotion at this point, the sample size of games we've seen isn't enough for us to demote or promote guys. We know what we can expect from Hartnell...gritty play (sometimes 2 way), willing to bang bodies, battle in the corners, stand in front of the net, get ~50pts. He hasn't even taken a penalty yet! The guy was on our 1a line 16 months ago, and in 2 games he deserves to be demoted 3 lines? And again...a line with 3 rookies on it, no matter how big, skilled, or mature...isn't a good thing.

What I would like to see is Hartnell back on the line with Briere. They already know how to play together and I think it could spark them both.

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10-09-2011, 01:37 AM
  #41
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What I would like to see is Hartnell back on the line with Briere. They already know how to play together and I think it could spark them both.
It's hard to put Hartnell over Simmonds right now though, because Simmonds does everything Hartnell does, better.

Albeit, Simmonds has taken more penalties this season, fallen down more...but has also won more fights.

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10-09-2011, 01:46 AM
  #42
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It's hard to put Hartnell over Simmonds right now though, because Simmonds does everything Hartnell does, better.

Albeit, Simmonds has taken more penalties this season, fallen down more...but has also won more fights.
Simmonds is a beast and it would be no slight to him, just maybe hartnell plays better with briere type of thing.

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10-09-2011, 05:21 AM
  #43
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It's a tough decision to make, but if/when Schenn is brought up (and if there are not trades made), I'd probably put Read on the fourth line. He has played well so far, there's no denying that, but he's been at his best on the pk. In 5on5 he's often caught holding on to the puck a little too long, and just not really used to the speed of the game yet it appears. I'd also move Bričre to the wing, though I doubt that Lavy will do so.

JvR-Giroux-Jagr
Simmonds-Schenn-Bričre
Hartnell-Couture-Voracek
Read-Talbot-Nödl

So far Bričre and Voracek hasn't found any chemistry to speak of. I know it's very, very early on in the season, but if things look more or less the same by the time we get Schenn up, I'd split the two. I think Voracek might like to be more of the go-to-guy on his line, and he'd get that here. Schenn would also bring some defensive stability to his line. Hartnell has had a rough start, and we need to get him going, he is much more important to this team than people seem to realize. If it continues like this though, then we would need to look for a trade, but it's just two games in so no need to fret just yet. Maybe switch Read to center on the fourth line, but I think Talbot is doing a good job so far, except on faceoffs.

Man, I hope things will look as good when we're in January/February somewhere and it's not just a bunch of newbies coming flying out of the gates, only to tire and stumble when the season begins to take its toll and team defenses are a lot tighter.


Last edited by mirimon: 10-09-2011 at 06:25 AM.
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10-09-2011, 06:53 AM
  #44
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I remember the Nashville rumor thread where people were saying it was unwise to trade Hartnell. 2 WINS later... suddenly he becomes expendible?

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10-09-2011, 07:02 AM
  #45
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10-09-2011, 07:03 AM
  #46
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Wow. you guys make decisions quick. 2 games in Simmonds is better than Hartnell?

Hartnell has scored a lot of goals here and played on a line that was our best during the cup run in 10'. Simmonds looks great, but let's give it some time. He hasn't proven he can score 20-30 goals consistently in the NHL. I'm hoping that he does.

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10-09-2011, 07:06 AM
  #47
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If things don't change with the 2nd line, try jvr on that line. I almost feel like he's wasted on the top line. Jagr and Giroux would be fine with a lesser player.

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10-09-2011, 07:37 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I remember the Nashville rumor thread where people were saying it was unwise to trade Hartnell. 2 WINS later... suddenly he becomes expendible?
Are they the same people?

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10-09-2011, 08:05 AM
  #49
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It's a tough decision to make, but if/when Schenn is brought up (and if there are not trades made), I'd probably put Read on the fourth line. He has played well so far, there's no denying that, but he's been at his best on the pk. In 5on5 he's often caught holding on to the puck a little too long, and just not really used to the speed of the game yet it appears. I'd also move Bričre to the wing, though I doubt that Lavy will do so.

JvR-Giroux-Jagr
Simmonds-Schenn-Bričre
Hartnell-Couture-Voracek
Read-Talbot-Nödl

So far Bričre and Voracek hasn't found any chemistry to speak of. I know it's very, very early on in the season, but if things look more or less the same by the time we get Schenn up, I'd split the two. I think Voracek might like to be more of the go-to-guy on his line, and he'd get that here. Schenn would also bring some defensive stability to his line. Hartnell has had a rough start, and we need to get him going, he is much more important to this team than people seem to realize. If it continues like this though, then we would need to look for a trade, but it's just two games in so no need to fret just yet. Maybe switch Read to center on the fourth line, but I think Talbot is doing a good job so far, except on faceoffs.

Man, I hope things will look as good when we're in January/February somewhere and it's not just a bunch of newbies coming flying out of the gates, only to tire and stumble when the season begins to take its toll and team defenses are a lot tighter.
I'd put Hartnell and B back together...they have been awful apart and if Hartnell can't start playing better he won't be on this team or will just continue to get fewer minutes. He's being left in the dust.

Jagr-G-JVR
Simmonds-Read-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Briere
Talbot-Couts-Nodl

gives you the ability to easily roll 4 lines.

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10-09-2011, 08:11 AM
  #50
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Wow. you guys make decisions quick. 2 games in Simmonds is better than Hartnell?

Hartnell has scored a lot of goals here and played on a line that was our best during the cup run in 10'. Simmonds looks great, but let's give it some time. He hasn't proven he can score 20-30 goals consistently in the NHL. I'm hoping that he does.
that was the past and this is the present. Hartnell is 10th in ice time among forwards (close to Nodl for 11th) through 2 games and has the 2nd highest cap hit on a team with cap issues. THey also have a good prospect likely to be called up soon to make him more irrelevant. In the past he got PP time and he's not going to sniff that role right now...he can't even keep up on this team and needs to get it in gear quick.

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