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Old
10-08-2011, 08:33 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
After watching the Sens tonight, I would say we are light years ahead of them on defense (Gonchar is horrible) and every other position as well
Thats to be expected, they way they constructed that team is to treat this season as an extended training camp to try and find as many NHL calibre players from their prospect pool as possible and build from there.

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10-08-2011, 08:34 PM
  #102
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Callahan was shipped to Hamilton. Who is he, by the way?

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10-08-2011, 08:36 PM
  #103
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Callahan was shipped to Hamilton. Why is he?
He was signed for Hamilton and to be an emergency call-up ala Nash. Montreal still has 7 guys that can probably take a regular NHL shift in their line-up already, Callahan is the Woywitka replacement.

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10-08-2011, 08:45 PM
  #104
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I was reading another board where they whined about McDonagh playing 27 minutes in the Rangers' first (overtime) game against the Kings, so this made me curious and I went and looked at the scoresheet. With Marc Staal out, this is their defense:

DEL ZOTTO, MICHAEL
GIRARDI, DAN (Icetime: 30 minutes; John Tortorella at work.)
MCDONAGH, RYAN
SAUER, MICHAEL
EMINGER, STEVE
ERIXON, TIM

Yeah, I can see why you'd play McDonagh a lot of those are your alternatives. I'd much rather have the Habs' blueline.

And this is a team pundits see in the playoffs, usually ahead of Montreal; some pundits have them winning the Atlantic!

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10-08-2011, 08:51 PM
  #105
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I was reading another board where they whined about McDonagh playing 27 minutes in the Rangers' first (overtime) game against the Kings, so this made me curious and I went and looked at the scoresheet. With Marc Staal out, this is their defense:

DEL ZOTTO, MICHAEL
GIRARDI, DAN (Icetime: 30 minutes; John Tortorella at work.)
MCDONAGH, RYAN
SAUER, MICHAEL
EMINGER, STEVE
ERIXON, TIM

Yeah, I can see why you'd play McDonagh a lot of those are your alternatives. I'd much rather have the Habs' blueline.

And this is a team pundits see in the playoffs, usually ahead of Montreal; some pundits have them winning the Atlantic!
New York's defense got severely over-hyped, largely because of how young they are. They've been running Staal and Giraldi ragged to make it work.

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10-08-2011, 08:53 PM
  #106
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Our defense is flawed, but all the people saying that everyone would be a 6th defender at best on an average team really needs to look at the defense roster of half the NHL. There's some really dreadful blueliners out there..even teams with far superior top 2s until Markov comes back often have nothing after that.

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10-08-2011, 08:55 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
New York's defense got severely over-hyped, largely because of how young they are.
You'd think hockey "experts" would realize at some point that being younger doesn't automatically make you better. (Wait, am I allowed to say that on HFBoards?)

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They've been running Staal and Giraldi ragged to make it work.
Well, Tortorella likes to run his top guys ragged anyway, but with that group... no choice. I suddenly understand why they're such a terrible possession club.

Which begs the question: why did they feel that the best place to spend 7 million of their money was on a forward?

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10-08-2011, 09:04 PM
  #108
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You'd think hockey "experts" would realize at some point that being younger doesn't automatically make you better. (Wait, am I allowed to say that on HFBoards?)



Well, Tortorella likes to run his top guys ragged anyway, but with that group... no choice. I suddenly understand why they're such a terrible possession club.

Which begs the question: why did they feel that the best place to spend 7 million of their money was on a forward?

Richards fixed one of their biggest holes, powerplay quarterback since they didn't have a defensman that could do it. And with Dubinsky and Callahan they can give him the soft minutes he needs to produce on even strength. Not to mention that there really wasn't much out there in terms of defensemen anyway.

Point is fair though, they were counting on McDonagh to be their 4th going into the season despite never playing a full year in the NHL and their 3rd pairing was weak. With Staal out they don't have a shutdown unit any more and McDonagh is forced to 3rd on the depth chart. They had a decent run with those guys in the second half of last season so I guess they felt safe to run with them but they forgot the cardinal rule of defensive depth: Someone is always hurt.

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10-08-2011, 09:08 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Richards fixed one of their biggest holes, powerplay quarterback since they didn't have a defensman that could do it.
Sure, but there were defensemen on the market who could fill that hole AND provide their defense with a boost. Erhoff, say. He's no great shakes at evens but he's a darn sight better than most of what they have. They could also have pursued Wisnievsky. They got overpaid, but that's never exactly stopped Sather before.

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Point is fair though, they were counting on McDonagh to be their 4th going into the season despite never playing a full year in the NHL and their 3rd pairing was weak. With Staal out they don't have a shutdown unit any more and McDonagh is forced to 3rd on the depth chart. They had a decent run with those guys in the second half of last season so I guess they felt safe to run with them but they forgot the cardinal rule of defensive depth: Someone is always hurt.
Looks like he's second, actually. Puts Montreal's purportedly weak, shallow and question-mark filled in perspective.

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10-08-2011, 09:17 PM
  #110
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Sure, but there were defensemen on the market who could fill that hole AND provide their defense with a boost. Erhoff, say. He's no great shakes at evens but he's a darn sight better than most of what they have. They could also have pursued Wisnievsky. They got overpaid, but that's never exactly stopped Sather before.



Looks like he's second, actually. Puts Montreal's purportedly weak, shallow and question-mark filled in perspective.
2nd? Yikes. I think Staal was holding that thing together like Markov in the Carboneau era. Take him out and the whole edifice falls. Especially since so much of their game plan is based on running out a 5 man unit of Dubinksy-Anisemov-Callahan,Staal-Giraldi so soak up the tough minutes so their large collection of lesser scoring forwards like Stepan, Zucerello and Boyle can produce.

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10-08-2011, 09:24 PM
  #111
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2nd? Yikes.
26+ minutes. Second highest icetime on the Rangers, behind Girardi.

Darn, but we traded a 26-minute top-pairing D-man for useless overpaid Gomez! Seriously, where would McDonagh fit on the Habs' current chart? 4th-ish?

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10-08-2011, 09:40 PM
  #112
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26+ minutes. Second highest icetime on the Rangers, behind Girardi.

Darn, but we traded a 26-minute top-pairing D-man for useless overpaid Gomez! Seriously, where would McDonagh fit on the Habs' current chart? 4th-ish?
Behind Gorges and Spacek, debateable with Gill.

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10-08-2011, 10:56 PM
  #113
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26+ minutes. Second highest icetime on the Rangers, behind Girardi.

Darn, but we traded a 26-minute top-pairing D-man for useless overpaid Gomez! Seriously, where would McDonagh fit on the Habs' current chart? 4th-ish?
3rd or 4th behind Subban and Gorges, but for me debatable with Spacek. Now, we all adore and love Martin and I can tell you that in the middle of the year, if Subban suffers from some braincramps, that McDonagh and his steady play would get some time off Subban's icetime. McDonagh would fit perfectly in Martin's type of hockey while Subban might not always. Though as a whole, McDo would be behind Subban....but the day you have no choice but to use Subban in protecting a lead, chances are you would have seen a McDo instead. And to me that's pretty important.

Yes, Rangers are weak and thin on D which makes his icetime greater.....but while he's paired with one of those guys, he doesn't do a bad job and makes no glaring mistakes. Mind you, Lundqvist might repair a couple of those unseen errors, I though have a feeling Price does the same here.

I,d love to see all the guys favoring the Rangers to win the Division. Can't be a majority. As far as I'm concerned, I don't see them in the playoffs.

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10-08-2011, 11:04 PM
  #114
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Subban is one of the Habs' better defensive defensemen. Seriously, if McDo was on the team, you'd still want Subban out there killing that last minute. His ability to get the puck out of the zone may not be considered a defensive skill to the eyeball, but it is a huge, huge factor in limiting chances and goals against.

As for Martin, he is very good at figuring out what his players can and cannot do and putting them in the positions that best match his schemes. People keep railing about him not using offensive forwards on the top-6, but they miss that he plays power on power, and his top-6 guys also get the toughest defensive matchups. You need to be good defensively to play alongside Plekanec. That's why he seems to focus on defense when, really, he's looking for two-way play and to spend as much time as possible in the offensive zone regardless of who is on the ice.

If Subban keeps outscoring first-pairing competition like he did at the end of the season (and there's no reason to believe he won't), Martin will recognize that and he will continue to use him in a first-pairing role, McD or no McD. Just like he recognized Subban's growing ability and gave him increasingly tough minutes until he was the team's undisputed #1 D-man by the end of the season.

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10-08-2011, 11:20 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Subban is one of the Habs' better defensive defensemen. Seriously, if McDo was on the team, you'd still want Subban out there killing that last minute. His ability to get the puck out of the zone may not be considered a defensive skill to the eyeball, but it is a huge, huge factor in limiting chances and goals against.

As for Martin, he is very good at figuring out what his players can and cannot do and putting them in the positions that best match his schemes. People keep railing about him not using offensive forwards on the top-6, but they miss that he plays power on power, and his top-6 guys also get the toughest defensive matchups. You need to be good defensively to play alongside Plekanec. That's why he seems to focus on defense when, really, he's looking for two-way play and to spend as much time as possible in the offensive zone regardless of who is on the ice.

If Subban keeps outscoring first-pairing competition like he did at the end of the season (and there's no reason to believe he won't), Martin will recognize that and he will continue to use him in a first-pairing role, McD or no McD. Just like he recognized Subban's growing ability and gave him increasingly tough minutes until he was the team's undisputed #1 D-man by the end of the season.
Well by saying so, you are underrating what McDo has done since he came in. He is strong on the puck, does a great job in front of the net, he is a smooth skater, that might not seem as obvious to the non-trained eye 'cause he's less dynamic than Subban but while he doesn't have the system we do, and doesn't have the partner that Subban has, McDo needs to be the rookie that HAS to play with a vet mentality. Though I'M ready to live with whatever mistake Subban does 'cause I will always believe the good will surpass the ugly, I'm also convinced that in certain games, in certain times, a more steady player in McDo might take the turn that Subban might have had. Yes, Subban is great and a superstar in the making. But as of now, he doesn't have to do a whole lot to surpass whoever we have as the bottom 2 pairing. Which makes him an obvious top 4, a trait I would not be surprised to see McDo becoming as well but with his own style.

You never know but if possible, the perfect top 2 to protect a lead might have been Subban-McDonagh.....Maybe not now, but while McDonagh might never achieve the goal that was to become a new Chelios, it wouldn't be bad to become a more offensive and tougher version than our own Gorges...And to me, top 4 on D is just as important as your top 2 centermen. A trait we haven't seen Gomez filling yet, while McDonagh has already done with a depleted lineup.....but would eventually filled with a deeper one, I'm sure, but it does remain to be seen.

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10-08-2011, 11:44 PM
  #116
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Well by saying so, you are underrating what McDo has done since he came in.
I'm not sure that I am. Like we discussed, he'd be a third-pairing D-man on a healthy Habs defense. It's nice for a player of his age to be at that level, but it's a heck of a far cry from Subban, who might be a superstar in the making, but is especially at least a #2 D-man right now and would top the depth chart of at least half the clubs in the NHL, including the Rangers.

He gets a lot of press because he gets a lot of minutes for the Rangers, but that's a function of the Rangers' lack of depth at D. Same with O'Byrne in Colorado, really. It doesn't mean he'd have the same role on the Habs, who have much more D depth, question marks or no.

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10-09-2011, 03:51 AM
  #117
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Maybe coach Martin will pull a Carbo and interchange Weber and Emelin as forward/dman !!?!!


Moen - Engqvist/Betts - Weber
OR
Moen - Engqvist/Betts - Emelin


!!?!!


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 10-09-2011 at 04:33 AM.
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10-09-2011, 07:57 AM
  #118
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I'm not sure that I am. Like we discussed, he'd be a third-pairing D-man on a healthy Habs defense.
I guess we doesn't include me, 'cause I do repeat I see him as a top 4. Right now, a healthy lineup would have me used Markov-Subban, McDo-Gorges, Gill-Spacek. Diaz as a replacement. Now, the only reason why he'd be 3rd pairing RIGHT NOW, is because you wouldn't want to have Mr.Slow and Mr.Slower in a pairing and that you'd have McDo there but talent wise and especially 5 on 5, McDo is a top 4 d-man. Would be in a lot of teams. The difference is that right now, he's top 2. And that's disproportionate I agree. Not too far fetch to think that he'll never going to achieve it though in his own style.

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10-09-2011, 08:24 AM
  #119
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Gill is the 8th Dman.

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10-09-2011, 08:27 AM
  #120
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I guess we doesn't include me, 'cause I do repeat I see him as a top 4. Right now, a healthy lineup would have me used Markov-Subban, McDo-Gorges, Gill-Spacek. Diaz as a replacement. Now, the only reason why he'd be 3rd pairing RIGHT NOW, is because you wouldn't want to have Mr.Slow and Mr.Slower in a pairing and that you'd have McDo there but talent wise and especially 5 on 5, McDo is a top 4 d-man. Would be in a lot of teams. The difference is that right now, he's top 2. And that's disproportionate I agree. Not too far fetch to think that he'll never going to achieve it though in his own style.
And we know if the team wasn't all too eager to get rid of cancers (Grabovski and/or Ribeiro). We wouldn't have had a hole in the center position to fill and wouldn't have given McDonagh away.

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10-09-2011, 08:59 AM
  #121
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And we know if the team wasn't all too eager to get rid of cancers (Grabovski and/or Ribeiro). We wouldn't have had a hole in the center position to fill and wouldn't have given McDonagh away.
Gomez = gives us lots of time to groom Eller for 2nd line center position and properly develop L.Leblanc

Gomez = playoff player (his stats prove it)...we need 50pts or more this season from him and a strong playoff performance...Markov's comeback could help Gomez a lot (especially for PP pts).






Hypothetical (no Gomez...):
McDonagh would be in our top 4 (but maybe no Campoli, maybe no Diaz, maybe no Emelin?)
Eller rushed as 2nd center, too much pressure...many will say he's more suited for 3rd center right now a la Jordan Staal and I agree (give Eller at least a year and half as 3rd center before promoting him to 2nd center)
L.Leblanc may have been rushed without Gomez...right now I'd say he needs at least a year and a half in the AHL before moving up to 4th line or 3rd line center for our Habs or...maybe as 2nd or 3rd line winger.

I wouldn't beat ourselves up over McDonagh...I'd love to have him right now play in our top 4 but we have Gomez as 2nd center for another 3 seasons (his contract numbers are decent starting next season, not so expensive on the salary cap). Pleks, Gomez, Eller, L.Leblanc is solid center depth...Eller and L.Leblanc can take the time they need...it will pay off (the cost: McDonagh but we got Gomez).


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10-09-2011, 09:28 AM
  #122
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Gomez = gives us lots of time to groom Eller for 2nd line center position and properly develop L.Leblanc

Gomez = playoff player (his stats prove it)...we need 50pts or more this season from him and a strong playoff performance...Markov's comeback could help Gomez a lot (especially for PP pts).






Hypothetical (no Gomez...):
McDonagh would be in our top 4 (but maybe no Campoli, maybe no Diaz, maybe no Emelin?)
Eller rushed as 2nd center, too much pressure...many will say he's more suited for 3rd center right now a la Jordan Staal and I agree (give Eller at least a year and half as 3rd center before promoting him to 2nd center)
L.Leblanc may have been rushed without Gomez...right now I'd say he needs at least a year and a half in the AHL before moving up to 4th line or 3rd line center for our Habs or...maybe as 2nd or 3rd line winger.

I wouldn't beat ourselves up over McDonagh...I'd love to have him right now play in our top 4 but we have Gomez as 2nd center for another 3 seasons (his contract numbers are decent starting next season, not so expensive on the salary cap). Pleks, Gomez, Eller, L.Leblanc is solid center depth...Eller and L.Leblanc can take the time they need...it will pay off (the cost: McDonagh but we got Gomez).
I don't think you quite followed my hypothesis.

If the organization hadn't have thrown away capable of offensive centres like Grabovski or Ribeiro. We wouldn't have had to make the deal for Gomez and thus could've kept McDonagh.

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10-09-2011, 09:31 AM
  #123
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I don't think you quite followed my hypothesis.

If the organization hadn't have thrown away capable of offensive centres like Grabovski or Ribeiro. We wouldn't have had to make the deal for Gomez and thus could've kept McDonagh.
It's definitely terrible that we've thrown away such talents just because of questionable attitude or behavior. The club puts more emphasis on respect and class then it does on talent it would appear.

Letting coaches like Guy Boucher and Kirk Muller fall through the cracks while retaining a dinosaur like Jacques Martin will also prove to be another serious blunder over the next few years. You can take that straight to the bank.

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10-09-2011, 09:43 AM
  #124
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It's definitely terrible that we've thrown away such talents just because of questionable attitude or behavior. The club puts more emphasis on respect and class then it does on talent it would appear.

Letting coaches like Guy Boucher and Kirk Muller fall through the cracks while retaining a dinosaur like Jacques Martin will also prove to be another serious blunder over the next few years. You can take that straight to the bank.
I agree with you there. This is a new game after the lock-out and the philosophy of this Ex-Ottawa Senators country club isn't going to cut it. We should've did everything to retain a visionary like Guy Boucher who not only operates on a psychological level, is a great tactician but he also is a motivator who conveys a lot of emotion and energy,.

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10-09-2011, 09:48 AM
  #125
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I agree with you there. This is a new game after the lock-out and the philosophy of this Ex-Ottawa Senators country club isn't going to cut it. We should've did everything to retain a visionary like Guy Boucher who not only operates on a psychological level, is a great tactician but he also is a motivator who conveys a lot of emotion and energy,.
Boucher was/is not a PG type guy. Totally different philosophy on how to run a hockey club.

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