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Old
10-09-2011, 08:16 AM
  #51
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I remember the Nashville rumor thread where people were saying it was unwise to trade Hartnell. 2 WINS later... suddenly he becomes expendible?
I've hated Hartnell since day one, especially when people were comparing his game to that of Tocchet's game. Most insulting comparison to one of the premier power forwards to ever play the game. I don't get the Hartnell love at all. So what he can throw a check and he's not afraid to go into corners. That fact that for every smart thing he does, he follows it up by doing two stupid things is what infuriates me about the guy.

My favourite line so far is how he's been protection for Couturier and Read. I beg to differ. Those two have made Fartnell look better than what he really is. I'll be looking forward to the day the Flyers ship his sorry ass out the door.

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10-09-2011, 08:19 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I've hated Hartnell since day one, especially when people were comparing his game to that of Tocchet's game. Most insulting comparison to one of the premier power forwards to ever play the game. I don't get the Hartnell love at all. So what he can throw a check and he's not afraid to go into corners. That fact that for every smart thing he does, he follows it up by doing two stupid things is what infuriates me about the guy.

My favourite line so far is how he's been protection for Couturier and Read. I beg to differ. Those two have made Fartnell look better than what he really is. I'll be looking forward to the day the Flyers ship his sorry ass out the door.
If he doesn't get his stuff together it may be sooner rather than later. The coach isn't even giving him time to reduce his minutes...he's down 5 mins/game. that's not a small number and shows his role isn't very relevant at this point.

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10-09-2011, 08:50 AM
  #53
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Anybody catch Hardfall/Hartnell's missed check last night? Looks like he is back to wearing his clown skates again....

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10-09-2011, 02:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Anybody catch Hardfall/Hartnell's missed check last night? Looks like he is back to wearing his clown skates again....
I LOL'd, full speed faceplant into the glass.

fortunate he was ok afterwards.

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10-09-2011, 04:54 PM
  #55
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If he doesn't get his stuff together it may be sooner rather than later. The coach isn't even giving him time to reduce his minutes...he's down 5 mins/game. that's not a small number and shows his role isn't very relevant at this point.
It has nothing to do with the relevance of his role. It has to do with the team structure and how the lines are being used

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10-09-2011, 05:06 PM
  #56
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Hartnell's flattered to deceive for a couple of years now. Is he really earning the $4m? Maybe, but he's not doing a job that someone else could do for cheaper. 93 points over 2 seasons isn't bad, but it's hardly 'must-not-sacrifice' good.

This isn't an opinion garnered from 2 games, but 166.

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10-09-2011, 05:26 PM
  #57
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Wow. you guys make decisions quick. 2 games in Simmonds is better than Hartnell?

Hartnell has scored a lot of goals here and played on a line that was our best during the cup run in 10'. Simmonds looks great, but let's give it some time. He hasn't proven he can score 20-30 goals consistently in the NHL. I'm hoping that he does.
It's not the fact that Simmonds is better than Hartnell, it's the fact that Simmonds has taken Hartnell's ice time. He's getting paid top line money and he doesn't kill penalties or play on the powerplay anymore. At this point in the season, Simmonds is more valuable than Hartnell because Hartnell's salary is weighing him down.

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10-09-2011, 05:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Hartnell's flattered to deceive for a couple of years now. Is he really earning the $4m? Maybe, but he's not doing a job that someone else could do for cheaper. 93 points over 2 seasons isn't bad, but it's hardly 'must-not-sacrifice' good.

This isn't an opinion garnered from 2 games, but 166.
Hartnell was a really big reason why that line worked as well as it did, he sacrificed a few points by taking up a huge chunk of the defensive work usually done by the center.

Before that he was with Carter and Brière, which wasn't the trainwreck of a line that some like to remember it. Before that he had his career year playing with Carter and Lupul.

I mean, if he continues to see around 11 minutes of ice time for a longer time, then we might see those 4.2 millions spent better elsewhere. We're not there yet though.

Also, you could argue that the fact that Laviolette trusts him to be the guy to lean on for two of our rookies actually shows that the coaches have a lot of faith in him. Simmonds is doing a great job so far, especially on the pp, but how hard can it be playing with Jagr and Giroux (this is slighlty sarcastic, btw)? It might be a little more difficult playing with Couturier and Read.

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Old
10-09-2011, 05:46 PM
  #59
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I really hope briere does not become unhappy with all of this. He has not looked that great to start the year and if hartnell gets moved he has lost his two linemates who he developed great chemistry and played very well with.

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10-09-2011, 05:49 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
I really hope briere does not become unhappy with all of this. He has not looked that great to start the year and if hartnell gets moved he has lost his two linemates who he developed great chemistry and played very well with.
I agree. It has only been two games but he has not looked sharp. I think what we could do is move Jagr over to his line. I feel that Roo and Jagr are our two best play makers and having them play on the same line is awesome but can also be a luxury we may not be able to afford. Every one thought Voracek could fill in the role of Leino but i see Jagr being able to fill that role better.

Last year we had atleast one playmaker per line. Now we are lacking those playmakers, and have a ton of finshers.

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10-09-2011, 05:52 PM
  #61
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I agree. It has only been two games but he has not looked sharp. I think what we could do is move Jagr over to his line. I feel that Roo and Jagr are our two best play makers and having them play on the same line is awesome but can also be a luxury we may not be able to afford. Every one thought Voracek could fill in the role of Leino but i see Jagr being able to fill that role better.

Last year we had atleast one playmaker per line. Now we are lacking those playmakers, and have a ton of finshers.
hard to break Jagr and Grioux up though because that line has goals in both games, and have had crazy scoring chances, the chemistry is too great between those two.

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10-09-2011, 06:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
hard to break Jagr and Grioux up though because that line has goals in both games, and have had crazy scoring chances, the chemistry is too great between those two.
I agree. But i also feel that those two players are special enough to develop chemistry with the rest of the team. If you had to ask every forward which 2 players they would like to play with imsure they would all say G and jagr

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10-09-2011, 06:50 PM
  #63
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I agree. But i also feel that those two players are special enough to develop chemistry with the rest of the team. If you had to ask every forward which 2 players they would like to play with imsure they would all say G and jagr
True, and especially giroux he can make anyone better so I am confident we can place anyone on that line like voracek or simmonds.

I am worried about briere though, we gotta make sure he is playing and feeling his best, we cannot have this guy go south, he is extremely valuable.

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Old
10-09-2011, 06:53 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
True, and especially giroux he can make anyone better so I am confident we can place anyone on that line like voracek or simmonds.

I am worried about briere though, we gotta make sure he is playing and feeling his best, we cannot have this guy go south, he is extremely valuable.
Two games.

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10-09-2011, 07:26 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Hartnell's flattered to deceive for a couple of years now. Is he really earning the $4m? Maybe, but he's not doing a job that someone else could do for cheaper. 93 points over 2 seasons isn't bad, but it's hardly 'must-not-sacrifice' good.

This isn't an opinion garnered from 2 games, but 166.
Hartnell's saving grace is his locker room presence.

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Old
10-09-2011, 07:27 PM
  #66
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Hartnell's saving grace is his locker room presence.
He's no Superstar though.

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Old
10-09-2011, 07:50 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I'd leave him in the AHL right now. Why change things up when everything is working? Or you move Hartnell down. Honestly, I like Hartnell alot and you can go through my previous posts about him (one of the few people that have defended him) but so far he has been horrendous
I just dont beleive that a player
deserves a spot just based off of draft position. Also I dont beleive in changing things when something
is working. Thats the John Stevens way of thinking right there.
if I trade my captain for a rookie I think very highly of, he's 20 so I'm and seems to be nhl ready im gonna see what he can do where I envisioned him this year. I love
read and he's played good but not good enough for me not to give the schenn experiment a try.

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10-09-2011, 09:00 PM
  #68
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Hartnell doesn't play on special teams any more and that's the only reason his ice time is down. Go look at his ES TOI and you'll see he's like 4th highest on the team (although all of the top 9 are pretty close to each other).

Right now I think it would be hard to trade or demote Hartnell from the shear fact that you would be left with an all rookie 3rd line and that's just a dissaster waiting to happen. I don't believe for a minute that Simmonds is on Briere's line because he's better than Hartnell. It's much more likely that HARTNELL was placed on the 3rd line because they already have 2 rookies on that line, they feel they need some veteran experience to go with them, and Simmonds is still pretty green himself having only played 2 year in the NHL.

The obvious solution is that Rinaldo gets demoted, Read drops to the 4th line, and Schenn moves into the 3rd line spot. Read continues to get PK time to get him up to around 12 minutes a game.


If by chance Hartnell does get traded then I think you HAVE to move JVR down to the 3rd line and then Read moves up with Giroux. Then the lines would be as follows:

Simmonds - Briere - Voracek
Read - Giroux - Jagr
JVR - Couturier - Schenn
Talbot/Nodl/Rinaldo/Shelly

I don't know about you guys but I could live with the above, especially considering that we'd free up 4.2 mil in cap space.

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10-09-2011, 09:06 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Hartnell doesn't play on special teams any more and that's the only reason his ice time is down. Go look at his ES TOI and you'll see he's like 4th highest on the team (although all of the top 9 are pretty close to each other).

Right now I think it would be hard to trade or demote Hartnell from the shear fact that you would be left with an all rookie 3rd line and that's just a dissaster waiting to happen. I don't believe for a minute that Simmonds is on Briere's line because he's better than Hartnell. It's much more likely that HARTNELL was placed on the 3rd line because they already have 2 rookies on that line, they feel they need some veteran experience to go with them, and Simmonds is still pretty green himself having only played 2 year in the NHL.

The obvious solution is that Rinaldo gets demoted, Read drops to the 4th line, and Schenn moves into the 3rd line spot. Read continues to get PK time to get him up to around 12 minutes a game.


If by chance Hartnell does get traded then I think you HAVE to move JVR down to the 3rd line and then Read moves up with Giroux. Then the lines would be as follows:

Simmonds - Briere - Voracek
Read - Giroux - Jagr
JVR - Couturier - Schenn
Talbot/Nodl/Rinaldo/Shelly

I don't know about you guys but I could live with the above, especially considering that we'd free up 4.2 mil in cap space.
I would rather keep read on the 3rd line and put schenn with giroux if he is going to play wing, but either way it works.

But I think it is too early to trade hartnell. We have a young team, and we do not know exactly what we have yet. With hartnell you know you are going to get hard work, at least 20 goals, and a strong physical presence. He also has that veteran experience and is great in the locker room.

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10-09-2011, 09:16 PM
  #70
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I would be surprised if Hartnell is still on the Flyers by this time next year. And I give it that long, because Holmgren typically doesn't like moving players off the roster during the season.

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10-09-2011, 09:45 PM
  #71
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I would be surprised if Hartnell is still on the Flyers by this time next year. And I give it that long, because Holmgren typically doesn't like moving players off the roster during the season.

I tend to agree with this. I just don't think Homer would be very comfortable running with three rookies in the top 9 an a forth on the 4th line. I think we keep Hartnell for the year and just have even more forward depth with him here as opposed to trading him and running the risk of creating a HUGE hole if we get a major injury in our top 9.


I DO think that this year will see Simmonds replace Hartnell in that type of a role and that Hartnell will be dealt just before/at the draft next June.

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10-09-2011, 10:39 PM
  #72
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1. Trade Hartnell for a nice young asset/high draft pick.
2. Call up Schenn
3. Gain cap space without losing much production. (Remember that Schenn is highly touted as being a good all-around player. He won't make too many major mistakes even though he's a rookie.)

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10-09-2011, 10:55 PM
  #73
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I tend to agree with this. I just don't think Homer would be very comfortable running with three rookies in the top 9 an a forth on the 4th line. I think we keep Hartnell for the year and just have even more forward depth with him here as opposed to trading him and running the risk of creating a HUGE hole if we get a major injury in our top 9.


I DO think that this year will see Simmonds replace Hartnell in that type of a role and that Hartnell will be dealt just before/at the draft next June.
This is the best thing to do, we need hartnell this year, you know what you get from him and his production is decent.... relying too much on young players if we get rid of him

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10-09-2011, 11:16 PM
  #74
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This is the best thing to do, we need hartnell this year, you know what you get from him and his production is decent.... relying too much on young players if we get rid of him


Here's the thing for me. I know that our owner and GM haven't given up on this year and after just 2 games we look real good and all but we made an aweful lot of changes this offseason and we became a whole lot younger in some very key areas. No matter how good we play this year I really don't see a parade at the end of the season. I think it's going to be a growing season for us, new guys learning a new system, guys needing time to "gel" with each other, Giroux and JVR getting used to being the new faces and leaders of the team, the young guys and rookies just getting a little more experience.

Losing Hartnell now would make the "growing pains" this year even worse but I don't just want "moral victories" or "growth steps", I want the cup and who really cares about "little achievements" if it doesn't bring home the cup. Yes losing Hartnell would be another step backwards this season but we could realisitcally get a mid 1st in the June draft for him if we traded him now. While that player may not make a huge difference next year, he certainly COULD relatively soon or the pick could even be packaged to bring in a replacement for Pronger/Timonen (say Suter or Weber).

With Hartnell I can see us making it to the 2nd rnd and losing there. Without him I see us probably just making the playoffs and losing in the 1st rnd. Trading him later I don't think we'd get nearly as much as we could right now in return. If my choices are to keep Hartnell, lose in the 2nd rnd and then get a 2nd rnd pick for him or to trade him now for a 1st and to lose in the 1st rnd then I personally want the latter.

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10-09-2011, 11:25 PM
  #75
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Here's the thing for me. I know that our owner and GM haven't given up on this year and after just 2 games we look real good and all but we made an aweful lot of changes this offseason and we became a whole lot younger in some very key areas. No matter how good we play this year I really don't see a parade at the end of the season. I think it's going to be a growing season for us, new guys learning a new system, guys needing time to "gel" with each other, Giroux and JVR getting used to being the new faces and leaders of the team, the young guys and rookies just getting a little more experience.

Losing Hartnell now would make the "growing pains" this year even worse but I don't just want "moral victories" or "growth steps", I want the cup and who really cares about "little achievements" if it doesn't bring home the cup. Yes losing Hartnell would be another step backwards this season but we could realisitcally get a mid 1st in the June draft for him if we traded him now. While that player may not make a huge difference next year, he certainly COULD relatively soon or the pick could even be packaged to bring in a replacement for Pronger/Timonen (say Suter or Weber).

With Hartnell I can see us making it to the 2nd rnd and losing there. Without him I see us probably just making the playoffs and losing in the 1st rnd. Trading him later I don't think we'd get nearly as much as we could right now in return. If my choices are to keep Hartnell, lose in the 2nd rnd and then get a 2nd rnd pick for him or to trade him now for a 1st and to lose in the 1st rnd then I personally want the latter.
You really think the difference between Hartnell and Schenn is the difference between a whole round in the playoffs?You guys must see something in him that I don't.

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