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10-10-2011, 09:31 AM
  #1
ONTHEFLYGUY
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Do we give Holmgren enough credit?

We sure like to rip him and we all know he is terrible with the salary cap, but I believe although it's too early to tell, this team is young, talented and built too compete. We don't know who wins these trades yet or if the rookies/draft picks will pan out but I like this team. This team is going to compete!


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10-10-2011, 09:42 AM
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SeanL44
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The fact is for every bad deal he does, he makes up for it with one or two good ones.

He doesn't seem to be a neutral GM, hes bipolar.

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10-10-2011, 09:47 AM
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He definitely has his issues handling the cap but the guy ices a very talented team year after year. He wins most of his trades and I am glad he made the Richards/Carter move if he honestly thought we would become a better team after.

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10-10-2011, 09:56 AM
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He does really good things that help the team, and he also does crap that hurts the team and often hinders them.

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10-10-2011, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONTHEFLYGUY View Post
We sure like to rip him and we all know he is terrible with the salary cap, but I believe although it's too early to tell, this team is young, talented and built too compete. We don't know who wins these trades yet or if the rookies/draft picks will pan out but I like this team. This team is going to compete!
Yes he gets enough credit.


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10-10-2011, 10:38 AM
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his good moves have been balanced out by his bad moves IMO

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10-10-2011, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONTHEFLYGUY View Post
We sure like to rip him and we all know he is terrible with the salary cap, but I believe although it's too early to tell, this team is young, talented and built too compete. We don't know who wins these trades yet or if the rookies/draft picks will pan out but I like this team. This team is going to compete!
the issues with Holmgren go back before this season with his trades and moves and have been well documented. I pay no attention to the national media on what they say about Holmgren because they very rarely look at the big picture. they look at the standings and say "Holmgren is a great GM"
I really wish they had someone in the front office who knows the salary cap and the CBA well.

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10-10-2011, 11:18 AM
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ONTHEFLYGUY
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Well no team has a perfect gm or that team would win year after year. I would say he's better then average.

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10-10-2011, 11:19 AM
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I've been saying all along. He's made mistakes for sure, but those mistakes have had far less of an impact than the good moves he's made. I know this makes me an apologist with no brain of my own or something like that, but if you really look at it, it's the truth. I know the shocking Upshall trade, the Shelley signing, and the Randy Jones fiasco are what really hindered this team from winning Cups the last five years, and the bringing in of the important pieces that he has brought in is of little consequence.

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10-10-2011, 11:22 AM
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So I guess that signing Leighton to be a starting goaltender going into last season had zero effect, huh?

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10-10-2011, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So I guess that signing Leighton to be a starting goaltender going into last season had zero effect, huh?
It had less of an effect than the good moves. Bob turned out to be pretty damned good until the playoffs, and I know that most people on here think that if the Flyers hadn't signed Leighton they would have signed a Vezina winning goalie and Homer was just to stupid to realize it, but the fact remains that Bob played well enough to the point where it didn't matter that Leighton was signed or that other goalies weren't. So maybe it didn't have zero effect (which I never said any of the moves did), but it certainly didn't have such a bad effect that signing Bob doesn't outweigh it. (Of course I am aware that you will likely respond that a different goalie we would have won the last two Cups, and I am not going to get back into that argument because I have been having it for the last two years).

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10-10-2011, 11:31 AM
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The answer is: No.

He makes very good moves that work out for the team. The problem is that many times, the player traded was a popular one. Or because we trade...DUN DUN DUN, draft picks, too often.

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10-10-2011, 11:31 AM
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He got VERY lucky with Bob.

here's the thing: there were better goalies available than Leighton. He completely botched it...so he ended up relying on a rookie with zero NA experience and a career backup.

He also decided that Shelley is better to have around than Asham, which is pretty mind-numbing.

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10-10-2011, 11:36 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He got VERY lucky with Bob.

here's the thing: there were better goalies available than Leighton. He completely botched it...so he ended up relying on a rookie with zero NA experience and a career backup.

He also decided that Shelley is better to have around than Asham, which is pretty mind-numbing.
not only did he sign Leighton to that stupid contract he signed him on June 30th before the market was established. There were better options out there and he could of had one of them at the same price he signed Leighton for. But that was Holmgren being loyal to Leighton.
sometimes this organization is blinded by loyalty.

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10-10-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He got VERY lucky with Bob.

here's the thing: there were better goalies available than Leighton. He completely botched it...so he ended up relying on a rookie with zero NA experience and a career backup.

He also decided that Shelley is better to have around than Asham, which is pretty mind-numbing.

Didn't he try to sign Nabokov?

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10-10-2011, 11:37 AM
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Homer is a GM that has created a very respectable roster that has the ability to compete with the best in the business. He also has a couple of prospects and pretty much all our remaining draft picks for the future.

He is one of the best in the business with regard to creating the core of the team, and assembling peices in place to ensure the flyers are competative.

However this is offset by being one of the worst in the business with the management of the cap, and the understanding of the CBA. He makes moves that are totally unnecessary, that cause significant problems later down the line. These moves have probably cost the flyers a cup or two. Not all of the blame can be put to homer regarding the cap, as that job is partially the responsibility of the assistant GM (haranan or something like that).

All in all he's a decent GM with poor cap management.

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10-10-2011, 11:39 AM
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MrHockey1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
not only did he sign Leighton to that stupid contract he signed him on June 30th before the market was established. There were better options out there and he could of had one of them at the same price he signed Leighton for. But that was Holmgren being loyal to Leighton.
sometimes this organization is blinded by loyalty.

That blinded by loyalty argument has been dismissed after this summer.

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10-10-2011, 11:43 AM
  #18
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He does everything to make us and keep us a contender every year.

The reason everybody hates him is because on top of all the great things he does for the organization, every year he throws one or two minor wrenches into the gears that shouldn't even matter in terms of significance.

Unfortunately those one or two minor faults end up keeping us either from icing the best possible team, keeping all of our assets in check, or winning the Stanley Cup.

They end up being bigger problems than they should be or would be for an organization not as competitive as ours.

Everyone overreacts and wants him run out of town.

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10-10-2011, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He got VERY lucky with Bob.
Haha. I had a feeling you would say that. Even assuming you are right, and he had no inclination that this guy would be a starter last season, he doesn't deserve credit for finding the diamond in the rough? That's just luck and his bad moves are more important, despite the fact that his bad move (Leighton) had far less of an impact than his good move (Bob).

Quote:
here's the thing: there were better goalies available than Leighton. He completely botched it...so he ended up relying on a rookie with zero NA experience and a career backup.
He tried to sign Nabby and Turco prior to the deadline. Let's get back into the debate we had all last year about this because that was fun.

Me: We needed a goalie, we tried to sign two of them and they both turned us down so he went with Leighton, the guy who was in net during the Cup Finals for us the year before.

Everyone else: YOU ARE STUPID EVERYONE KNEW THE MARKET WOULD BE BAD (except the Flyers and the goalies involved)!!!

Me: Even if they didn't sign Leighton on the eve of free agency, there is no way to tell if any better goalie would have signed.

Everyone else: YES THERE WAS YOU ARE STUPID THIS IS JUST LIKE NHL 12 ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS MAKE AN OFFER AND EVERY PLAYER WILL ACCEPT BECAUSE WE WANT THEM TO PLAY HERE.

That was a good time.

Quote:
He also decided that Shelley is better to have around than Asham, which is pretty mind-numbing.
Hey, I didn't say he never made a mistake, only that the mistakes are far outweighed by the good moves. But I guess a GM really should be measured by his mistakes, not his successes, especially when the mistakes so clearly ruined this team and the successes so clearly were miniscule.

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10-10-2011, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Homer is a GM that has created a very respectable roster that has the ability to compete with the best in the business. He also has a couple of prospects and pretty much all our remaining draft picks for the future.

He is one of the best in the business with regard to creating the core of the team, and assembling peices in place to ensure the flyers are competative.

However this is offset by being one of the worst in the business with the management of the cap, and the understanding of the CBA. He makes moves that are totally unnecessary, that cause significant problems later down the line. These moves have probably cost the flyers a cup or two. Not all of the blame can be put to homer regarding the cap, as that job is partially the responsibility of the assistant GM (haranan or something like that).

All in all he's a decent GM with poor cap management.
This is pretty much it.

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10-10-2011, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHockey1982 View Post
That blinded by loyalty argument has been dismissed after this summer.
Snider wanted his goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
He does everything to make us and keep us a contender every year.

The reason everybody hates him is because on top of all the great things he does for the organization, every year he throws one or two minor wrenches into the gears that shouldn't even matter in terms of significance.

Unfortunately those one or two minor faults end up keeping us either from icing the best possible team, keeping all of our assets in check, or winning the Stanley Cup.

They end up being bigger problems than they should be or would be for an organization not as competitive as ours.

Everyone overreacts and wants him run out of town.

because any other GM would of done things exactly the same way hes done things for the last 6 years. Just because the media thinks hes a great GM doesnt mean he is.

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10-10-2011, 11:58 AM
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MrHockey1982
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Snider wanted his goalie.




because any other GM would of done things exactly the same way hes done things for the last 6 years. Just because the media thinks hes a great GM doesnt mean he is.

OK. Sooooooooo does that mean you agree that the organization isn't loyal anymore? Or are you saying that only Snider is smart and Holmgren is controlled by him?

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10-10-2011, 11:59 AM
  #23
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He gets enough credit and he gets enough ****.

It's weird, all of the moves he makes that can be graded subjectively, I tend to think he does well on. It's the moves that are just objectively dumb that frustrate me. The guy is nuts, and he can't even ride a ****ing bike, so whatever.

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10-10-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Haha. I had a feeling you would say that. Even assuming you are right, and he had no inclination that this guy would be a starter last season, he doesn't deserve credit for finding the diamond in the rough? That's just luck and his bad moves are more important, despite the fact that his bad move (Leighton) had far less of an impact than his good move (Bob).



He tried to sign Nabby and Turco prior to the deadline. Let's get back into the debate we had all last year about this because that was fun.

Me: We needed a goalie, we tried to sign two of them and they both turned us down so he went with Leighton, the guy who was in net during the Cup Finals for us the year before.

Everyone else: YOU ARE STUPID EVERYONE KNEW THE MARKET WOULD BE BAD (except the Flyers and the goalies involved)!!!

Me: Even if they didn't sign Leighton on the eve of free agency, there is no way to tell if any better goalie would have signed.

Everyone else: YES THERE WAS YOU ARE STUPID THIS IS JUST LIKE NHL 12 ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS MAKE AN OFFER AND EVERY PLAYER WILL ACCEPT BECAUSE WE WANT THEM TO PLAY HERE.

That was a good time.



Hey, I didn't say he never made a mistake, only that the mistakes are far outweighed by the good moves. But I guess a GM really should be measured by his mistakes, not his successes, especially when the mistakes so clearly ruined this team and the successes so clearly were miniscule.
You sure love building strawman arguments, don't you? I hate to break it to you, but hyperbole does nothing to aid your points, and if anything it devalues them.


Go find the people who have said what you claim they did. You'll be looking for a really long time, and you'll find I and almost all others didn't say those things. You'll also find that the goalie market did play out exactly as predicted by many people. You may also realize how dumb it is to "pursue" goalies by throwing them lowball offers without attempting to follow them up, and signing an inferior option before free agency even began.

Holmgren truly isn't as great as you make him out to be, and you need to stop ignoring the fact that we give him credit for his strengths. You imagine blind hate where it doesn't exist. He does a lot of crap that causes non-stop problems for the team, so he gets criticism for it.

Edit: Oh, right. Even Homer admits he got lucky with Bob. So when I say he got lucky...it's because that's what ****ing Holmgren thinks as well.


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Old
10-10-2011, 12:06 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
because any other GM would of done things exactly the same way hes done things for the last 6 years. Just because the media thinks hes a great GM doesnt mean he is.
Why didn't they then?

We've been one of if not the most imposing and successful organizations since Holmgren took over.

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