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Old
10-23-2005, 10:43 PM
  #26
DaveMatthew
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Morrow has scored a whopping 18 points in 48 playoff games.

Why would we trade Havlat for him?

Wait, I think I've figured it out. Is it because people look at his birth certificate and automatically assume that he's this great playoff warrior?

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10-23-2005, 10:45 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty
According to the Sun it was Ottawa that nixed the Havlat for Cole deal,not Carolina.
Makes sense.Lots of teams want Havlat.We would be crazy to trade him.
From the story...
"The Senators supposedly tried to deal Havlat to the Carolina Hurricanes straight up for Erik Cole, who was also faced with issues when trying to re-sign with the 'Canes."

The question isn't if other teams want him, the question is what they will part with to get him. I seriously question what some people think Havlat's trade value is.

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10-23-2005, 10:48 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
From the story...
"The Senators supposedly tried to deal Havlat to the Carolina Hurricanes straight up for Erik Cole, who was also faced with issues when trying to re-sign with the 'Canes."

The question isn't if other teams want him, the question is what they will part with to get him. I seriously question what some people think Havlat's trade value is.
That article also said Havlat would become a UFA this offseason which sums up just about how accurate it is.

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10-23-2005, 10:50 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
Morrow has scored a whopping 18 points in 48 playoff games.
Why would we trade Havlat for him?

Wait, I think I've figured it out. Is it because people look at his birth certificate and automatically assume that he's this great playoff warrior?
Maybe it's because measuring a player's performance strictly by the scoresheet is an incredibly poor way of going about it. Why don't you also check out Modano's playoff numbers, since he's one of the players supported by the work that Morrow does out there on the ice.

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10-23-2005, 10:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
Maybe it's because measuring a player's performance strictly by the scoresheet is an incredibly poor way of going about it. Why don't you also check out Modano's playoff numbers, since he's one of the players supported by the work that Morrow does out there on the ice.
So what exactly does Morrow do that's so succesful? Because in the past 3 playoffs, the Stars haven't advanced past the 2nd round.

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10-23-2005, 11:04 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
So what exactly does Morrow do that's so succesful? Because in the past 3 playoffs, the Stars haven't advanced past the 2nd round.
Given that Ottawa was supposedly a better team for several of those years, that's not bad really. Again, I'm not trying to argue that Morrow is going to score more points than Havlat - I'm just saying that a player like Morrow - not even Morrow per se - would probably compliment the team very well given the current team dynamics, and could bring a very beneficial element to the table that Havlat can't.

Is this really so contentious a point?

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10-23-2005, 11:08 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
Given that Ottawa was supposedly a better team for several of those years, that's not bad really. Again, I'm not trying to argue that Morrow is going to score more points than Havlat - I'm just saying that a player like Morrow - not even Morrow per se - would probably compliment the team very well given the current team dynamics, and could bring a very beneficial element to the table that Havlat can't.

Is this really so contentious a point?
I don't see what this element is, or why its needed. Is it hard work along the boards? We have Schaefer and Fisher. Is it going hard to the net? We have Neil who seems to do that well.

For whatever "grittiness" Morrow could bring, its not worth taking out a lot of speed and goal scoring ability, as well as penalty killing for it.

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10-23-2005, 11:35 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
Interesting use of Calgary as an analogy - they also didn't have a pure-skill scoring winger in their entire line-up, and were already loaded with hard-working players throughout their lineup. In fact, they may well have been the most conspicuously untalented team to have made the finals in recent memory. Ottawa really isn't in that situation, and frankly the time for the hard working players IS the playoffs... not to get to the playoffs. More importantly, you need that hard work to exist on your scoring lines without sacrificing the line's effectiveness... which has been Ottawa's most notable problem over the years. That's precisely where the Morrow's and Cole's of the world can help you most, and why their trade value tends to be very high, and why you're not likely to find it readily available at the trade deadline.

Your argument makes sense, but I am not sure it fits for this team. It is a huge risk to trade such a valuable asset of a contender such as Havlat is to us in exchange for something that we may need, but is not for sure will fit on our team or be the answer to all our problems. It is probably safer to give up other assests to fill holes in our line-up without possibly creating another hole.

It can be argued that if the Flames had a skilled player like Havlat in exchange for one of their hard workers, it might have put them over the hump....since the eventual winners had a good mix of skill and hard workers. I rather the team stay put and Muckler adds the Gelinas', Fedotenko's and Simon's of the NHL near the deadline.

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Old
10-23-2005, 11:44 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
I don't see what this element is, or why its needed. Is it hard work along the boards? We have Schaefer and Fisher. Is it going hard to the net? We have Neil who seems to do that well.
For whatever "grittiness" Morrow could bring, its not worth taking out a lot of speed and goal scoring ability, as well as penalty killing for it.
It's needed because our vaunted scoring lines - including the seemingly infallable Martin Havlat - have a very nasty habit of utterly disappearing when the chips are down and the intensity goes up. Please tell me what good Fisher and Schaefer's work along the boards will do for Spezza and Heatley when they're out there on the ice without them. The idea is to add that kind of presence onto a SCORING line, so that your skilled players have someone driving the net and doing the grunt work to give them some extra room on the ice. The Sens simply don't have anyone in this role right now - Neil is not ready for 20min/night on a top line, and Fisher and Schaefer have other roles to play.

I'm not sure I'd qualify Havlat as a superior penalty killer to Morrow just yet, but as for taking out speed and goal scoring ability from the lineup, I hate to break it to people but Havlat's days in Ottawa are very likely numbered. Do you really think that Muckler will keep Havlat before any of Chara, Redden, Alfredsson, Heatley or Spezza? My guess is he'll be moved next off-season, but in any case something is going to have to be worth giving Havlat up for... I guess the question is what people really think Muckler will be seeking in exchange... or, more importantly, what another GM will actually give Muckler for him.

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10-23-2005, 11:49 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSG
It can be argued that if the Flames had a skilled player like Havlat in exchange for one of their hard workers, it might have put them over the hump....since the eventual winners had a good mix of skill and hard workers. I rather the team stay put and Muckler adds the Gelinas', Fedotenko's and Simon's of the NHL near the deadline.
I agree that Calgary could have used a bit more skill up front last year, but I'd argue that tinkering with your top line at the trade deadline is far riskier than adding supporting offense. Gelinas and Fedotenko were effective due to both their work ethic and their chemistry on their respective lines. I'm really not so sure that Gelinas does what Gelinas did if he's thrown on that line in March for the first time.

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10-24-2005, 07:06 AM
  #36
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OK, Sensens you have still not found one guy of Havlat's stature that was "available on the market last year". No such goal-scorer existed. Satan was the closest.

Calgary rid a hot goalie to the finals and got beat like Anaheim, Florida, Carolina, LA, etc. did before them. On the other hand, they got beat by a team with numerous flashy goal scorers like Lecavelier and St. Louis. Lecavelier was in fact benched earlier in the season... not someone who would be classified as a worker. In fact, as players go St. Louis is a pretty good comparison to Havlat. Maybe not as dirty, but they are both fiesty little guys that score through speed and finesse. He got 6.5 mil. Other small speedsters like Bure, Fleury and Datz have won two cups for their respective teams and Bure brought Vancouver to the finals. Flash has also been the name of the game for most of the teams that win cups. The Wings, Stars and Avs were loaded, while the Devils rid Brodeur. I really don't see a lot of teams riding Fishers to the cup.

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10-24-2005, 08:38 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
Now tell me how many times you've seen a player like Morrow or Cole on the open market ...
It almost seems as if "powerforward" has always been an awe inspiring term. However, after we get beyond the Doan/Smyth level the "oohs and aahs" should subside... because we're really talking about checkers. Checkers miscast as 1st liners by teams without any depth. Unfortunately, teams have been suckered into thinking that any of these players could generate offense by themselves... and paid a premium in trade/money for guys like Battaglia, Corson, Isbister, Lapointe.

Who has been available at their level?
Roberts, Shanahan, Holik, Leclerc, Scatchard, Gratton
Slightly below.. Isbister, Weimer, Lapointe, Mccarty, Clark, May, J.Ward, Leclair, Nolan, Battaglia
Slightly above... Lindros, Tkachuk (more then likely)

If we're going to pay a premium... we should be looking to get a powerforward, not a checker. Otherwise, we're fine with Neil, Fisher, et al.

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Old
10-24-2005, 08:51 AM
  #38
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Checkers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volchenkov
Morrow's best season: 49 points in 81 games

Havlat's last 3 season: 50, 59, 68 (no more than 72 games)

PLEASE stop these Morrow for Havlat comparisons. A player who is almost 27 and has NEVER even scored 50 points playing with MODANO should NEVER be compared to a player with the skill and talent that Havlat has. I would NEVER trade Havlat for Morrow.
Career year
Morrow: 81 / 49
Cole: 80 / 42

Fisher: 74 / 38
Varada: 76 / 37
Schaefer: 81 / 39

Battaglia: 82 / 46
Isbister: 64 / 42
Lapointe: 82 / 57
Scatchard: 81 / 45

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Old
10-24-2005, 09:05 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champben2002
OK, Sensens you have still not found one guy of Havlat's stature that was "available on the market last year". No such goal-scorer existed. Satan was the closest.
As I said, I would take any of the players I mentioned on that list before Havlat if I'm a GM of a team looking for stable, top-line scoring. What I haven't done is conjure up a name to topple your concept of what Havlat is - which is somehow exponentially more than a one-time 30G/60Pts scoring winger who is a year and a half away from UFA status. He has potential yet to be realized, but I really think people are getting carried away with themselves when they start making Havlat out to be some kind of imminent Cup catalyst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by champben2002
Calgary rid a hot goalie to the finals and got beat like Anaheim, Florida, Carolina, LA, etc. did before them. On the other hand, they got beat by a team with numerous flashy goal scorers like Lecavelier and St. Louis. Lecavelier was in fact benched earlier in the season... not someone who would be classified as a worker. In fact, as players go St. Louis is a pretty good comparison to Havlat. Maybe not as dirty, but they are both fiesty little guys that score through speed and finesse. He got 6.5 mil. Other small speedsters like Bure, Fleury and Datz have won two cups for their respective teams and Bure brought Vancouver to the finals. Flash has also been the name of the game for most of the teams that win cups. The Wings, Stars and Avs were loaded, while the Devils rid Brodeur. I really don't see a lot of teams riding Fishers to the cup.
First off, when Havlat wins the Hart Trophy in the same year that Ottawa wins the Cup, then we can talk about $6M+ for his services. Second, did you happen to note that Fleury had all of 11pts in Calgary's cup-winning year, while Datsyuk had only 6pts the last time Detroit won? To give these players excessive credit for their teams' Cup victories is a conceptual stretch to say the very least. And the fact that you STILL refer to Fisher as if he were a powerforward tells me that this discussion will have to end here... we're obviously on completely different wavelengths on this one.


Last edited by sensens: 10-24-2005 at 09:36 AM.
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Old
10-24-2005, 12:24 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
Again, the answer to Cole for Havlat was 'no' - from Carolina. It's not like Muckler had to weigh his options and decide that the deal wasn't worth it for Ottawa, it was Carolina who did that for him.
You're way off base here. I mean really off base.

Jim Rutherford invited a bunch of Cane's season ticket holders to have lunch and talk hockey. A well respected poster (PukinA) on Fanhome was there and she specifically brought up the rumored trade Havlat for Cole. In his own words JR had this to say:

"I want you to know I am not shopping Cole. However, if Havlat was offered to us, we would of done that trade".
Link

There is also a post on the Cane's board that said the same thing from another fan who was at the lunch.
Link 2

I can't believe anyone would believe a Havlat - Cole swap is not a bargain for Carolina.

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Old
10-24-2005, 01:18 PM
  #41
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lol. well that should put that silly argument to rest.

thanks.

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Old
10-24-2005, 02:25 PM
  #42
sensens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayItAgain
Jim Rutherford invited a bunch of Cane's season ticket holders to have lunch and talk hockey. A well respected poster (PukinA) on Fanhome was there and she specifically brought up the rumored trade Havlat for Cole. In his own words JR had this to say:

"I want you to know I am not shopping Cole. However, if Havlat was offered to us, we would of done that trade".
Link

There is also a post on the Cane's board that said the same thing from another fan who was at the lunch.
Link 2
Well, that certainly trumps the simian reporting skills of the Ottawa Sun... my bad for over-estimating their credibility - thanks for providing this.

As for whether a Cole deal straight-up is such a terrible trade, though, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it - especially considering Ottawa's looming financial crunch next off-season. That being said, I definitely do like the idea of parlaying the talent that we're forced to trade off into younger talent than Cole - regardless of what kind of asset we'd be seeking in trade. The question remains, though - just how much is an NHL GM going to give up to acquire Havlat, if they know that we're probably going to have to trade him due to financial constraints? I'm definitely pretty big on a 1st round pick being part of any package (i.e. possibly a draft-day move), but we'll have to stay tuned, I guess.

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Old
10-24-2005, 03:02 PM
  #43
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For every team that has financial constraints there will be two that are in a market demanding wins with cap room to spend. I don't just mean Washington and Pittsburgh. If Havlat scores 40 and the Sens win the cup, then he will probably be worth a top 5 pick, maybe the first overall. I am willing to bet on the above. This is the best team in the NHL and I think Havlat would have had 40 had he not missed training camp. I hope that Muck is too.

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