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Do we give Holmgren enough credit?

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Old
10-10-2011, 01:58 PM
  #51
ONTHEFLYGUY
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I'm confused so ur complaining were contenders but since he's bad at cap management he's a bad gm. But there are gm's who have losing teams year after year but their great at saving and not wasting cap. Hmmmm I'll take the contender

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10-10-2011, 01:59 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ONTHEFLYGUY View Post
I'm confused so ur complaining were contenders but since he's bad at cap management he's a bad gm. But there are gm's who have losing teams year after year but their great at saving and not wasting cap. Hmmmm I'll take the contender
You're missing the grey area.

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Old
10-10-2011, 01:59 PM
  #53
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Bold denotes a player acquired by Holmgren via draft, trade, or free agent signing since taking over for Bobby Clarke.


2007-08

Gagne - Richards - Knuble
Hartnell - Briere - Lupul
Upshall - Carter - Umberger
Cote - Dowd - Kapanen

Timonen - Coburn
Smith - Hatcher
Kukkonen - Jones

Biron - Niittymaki


2008-09

Gagne - Richards - Knuble
Hartnell - Briere - Lupul
Asham - Carter - Upshall/Giroux
Carcillo - Powe - Cote

Timonen - Parent/Sbisa
Coburn - Carle
Alberts - Jones/Vaananen

Biron - Niittymaki


2009-10

Gagne - Richards - Powe/Leino
Hartnell - Carter - Briere
vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Asham
Carcillo - Betts - Laperriere

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Bartulis - Parent/Krajicek

Emery/Leighton - Boucher


2010-11

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Carter
Zherdev/Nodl - Richards - Versteeg/Carcillo
Powe - Betts - Shelley

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell

Bobrovsky - Boucher/Leighton


2011-12

vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Jagr
Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
Read - Couturier/Schenn - Simmonds
Rinaldo - Talbot - Nodl

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - Lilja

Bryzgalov - Bobrovsky

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Old
10-10-2011, 02:05 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
If homer hadn't made some really OBVIOUS bonehead moves we'd have Johnathan Blum and John Carlsson on our blueline right now and all it would cost us off the current roster would be Matt Carle. Think about that, two top pairing dmen for Matt Carle and that's not to mention that we'd also still have Steve Downie instead of just letting Carcillo walk for nothing because he's crap.

Homer did a lot to redieem himself this off-season (or at least time to see if his big moves pay off in the long run) but he's still screwed things up on a regular basis.
1st for Eminger ---> Eminger/Downie for Carle was the only legitimate (not minor signing/cap related) screw up of Holmgren's career as a GM here.

I will admit though that it was a major **** up.

That said, the same aggressiveness that screwed the pooch on that one was also responsible for Chris Pronger, Timonen/Hartnell, Bryzgalov, Schenn/Simmonds/Couturier/Voracek, etc.

Take everything if you're going to complain. Examine all the facts, not just the ones you don't like.

That same trade we made for Eminger was the same trade we did for Coburn and for Meszaros. Eminger just cost us more and was a much larger disappointment. Coburn and Meszaros though were rehabs/projects that Holmgren was successful with.

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10-10-2011, 02:11 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
1st for Eminger ---> Eminger/Downie for Carle was the only legitimate (not minor signing/cap related) screw up of Holmgren's career as a GM here.

I will admit though that it was a major **** up.

That said, the same aggressiveness that screwed the pooch on that one was also responsible for Chris Pronger, Timonen/Hartnell, Bryzgalov, Schenn/Simmonds/Couturier/Voracek, etc.

Take everything if you're going to complain. Examine all the facts, not just the ones you don't like.

That same trade we made for Eminger was the same trade we did for Coburn and for Meszaros. Eminger just cost us more and was a much larger disappointment. Coburn and Meszaros though were rehabs/projects that Holmgren was successful with.
Pronger's contract may come back to haunt us in a very big way he just turned 37 or 38 this week, and he's got a long time left on this deal with serious salary drop off in the last 2 years. Lidstrom signed his latest contract for millions, do you think Pronger intends to play his final 2 seasons for just over half a million per?

The trades of this summer are inconclusive after 2 games. The signings of Leighton are nothing but stupid. The fact that he keeps the team so tie to the cap ceiling and the # of contracts so high shows he isn't capable of the business side. He repeats his mistakes and that's my biggest issue with him.

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10-10-2011, 02:12 PM
  #56
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As loyal as they were to Gagne the year before.

Even more evidence that we aren't blindly loyal. In fact, you could argue the exact opposite. Thank you for providing that.

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10-10-2011, 02:12 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
If homer hadn't made some really OBVIOUS bonehead moves we'd have Johnathan Blum and John Carlsson on our blueline right now and all it would cost us off the current roster would be Matt Carle.
If we had Jonathan Blum, that would mean we may not have Hartnell or Timonen as Blum was selected with the 1st rounder Philly sent to Nashville for their rights.

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10-10-2011, 02:16 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyMac View Post
If we had Jonathan Blum, that would mean we may not have Hartnell or Timonen as Blum was selected with the 1st rounder Philly sent to Nashville for their rights.
This.

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10-10-2011, 02:18 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You don't think that wasting cap space that could be used for better players holds the team back? You don't think that Shelley's 1.1 million dollars could be put to better use, or Walker's 1.7? That list can easily go on.
I'm sure they COULD have been better, but they also COULD have been worse. Maybe with the extra cap space they sign someone different and he gets hurts or just sucks. Maybe with that extra cap space they see an opportunity for a trade and lose a piece to add someone they thought would help who doesn't. So I agree with you that other moves could have helped, but they also could have hurt. That is why you can only look at the results, which, even with the Shelley and other mistakes, the team has been successful. The speculation is just too much when you get into the could haves and should haves. I'm not saying the dude is perfect, but you cannot argue with his results.

The team has been one of the best over the last four or five years since he took over. The only thing he could have done is won the Cup, which one team does out of 30 every year. I'm not real sure what else you want from him. The extra cap space from Shelley, Walker, or whomever or extra draft picks blah blah blah very whatever well may have put them over the top in 2010 or 2008 or which ever year you want to talk about, but it also could have changed those seasons entirely (i.e. chemistry, key goals from players that were part of franchise killing trades, etc).

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Old
10-10-2011, 02:19 PM
  #60
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I think Holmgren is good at building a competitive team, but his blunders prevent them from being one of the elite organizations in the league.

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10-10-2011, 02:19 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
1st for Eminger ---> Eminger/Downie for Carle was the only legitimate (not minor signing/cap related) screw up of Holmgren's career as a GM here.

I will admit though that it was a major **** up.

That said, the same aggressiveness that screwed the pooch on that one was also responsible for Chris Pronger, Timonen/Hartnell, Bryzgalov, Schenn/Simmonds/Couturier/Voracek, etc.

Take everything if you're going to complain. Examine all the facts, not just the ones you don't like.

That same trade we made for Eminger was the same trade we did for Coburn and for Meszaros. Eminger just cost us more and was a much larger disappointment. Coburn and Meszaros though were rehabs/projects that Holmgren was successful with.
Meszaros was a top 4 d with Tampa though, even if he'd failed to deliver. Coburn was a 20 yo rookie that cost us Zhitnik, who wouldn't remain with us anyway.

Eminger was the 7th dman for Washington the year before we decided to fling a 1st rounder for him.

There's a difference between aggressive and stupid. I can agree that some of us need to lay off on Homer at times, and that we're perhaps overly pessimistic regarding this season. That summer wasn't his best of times though. It was fairly obvious that we needed to upgrade on defense, we had a pretty bad defense already the year before. Yet, Homer planned for us to go into that season with this defense

Timonen - Väänänen
Coburn - Parent
Eminger - Jones
Kukkonen

that's just bad.

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10-10-2011, 02:21 PM
  #62
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From the list that Chris put up you can all see that Homer has made this HIS team and that only Giroux and Nodl are left from the Clarke.


Now lets list all the players that Homer has traded away (either the player was traded or this is the player taken with the pick traded away):

Jonathon Blum, TJ Breenan, Joni Pitkanen, RJ Umberger, John Carlson, Steve Downie, Scottie Upshall, Lucas Lessio, Joffrey Lupul, Lucas Sbisa, John Moore, Emerson Etem, Simon Gagne, Stuart Percy, Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Kris Verseeg, Darrol Powe.

He's traded away SEVEN 1st rnd picks (or players taken in the 1st rnd & traded before then even play half a season in the NHL), six 2nd rnd picks and eight 3rd rnd picks. That's freaking AWEFUL considering all his futility has done nothing but fail to bring home the cup.

Remember, our owner stood up in front of the TV cameras and stated "WE ARE DONE TRADING AWAY OUR YOUNG PLAYERS AND PICKS" and not 2 months after saying this we traded away the first of many 1st rnd picks that could right now be cornerstones on our blueline.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. Holmgren has 4 or 5 potential good/great moves in a SEA of failures.

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10-10-2011, 02:25 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm sure they COULD have been better, but they also COULD have been worse. Maybe with the extra cap space they sign someone different and he gets hurts or just sucks. Maybe with that extra cap space they see an opportunity for a trade and lose a piece to add someone they thought would help who doesn't. So I agree with you that other moves could have helped, but they also could have hurt. That is why you can only look at the results, which, even with the Shelley and other mistakes, the team has been successful. The speculation is just too much when you get into the could haves and should haves. I'm not saying the dude is perfect, but you cannot argue with his results.

The team has been one of the best over the last four or five years since he took over. The only thing he could have done is won the Cup, which one team does out of 30 every year. I'm not real sure what else you want from him. The extra cap space from Shelley, Walker, or whomever or extra draft picks blah blah blah very whatever well may have put them over the top in 2010 or 2008 or which ever year you want to talk about, but it also could have changed those seasons entirely (i.e. chemistry, key goals from players that were part of franchise killing trades, etc).

So...you're totally OK with the fact that Homer shoots the team in the foot routinely? Watching him do stuff that clearly hurts the team (yes, Shelley's signing IS that freaking bad, especially since he let Asham walk in the process) doesn't bother you at all? It sure as hell bothers me. Many of the problems that Homer has to solve and respond to were created by his actions. I'd rather see him not screw simple crap up in the first place.

Edit: Remember when we had an awesome 4th line? in the 2010 offseason Homer obliterated that. That DEFINITELY hurt the team and their chances to win.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 10-10-2011 at 02:30 PM.
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Old
10-10-2011, 02:26 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by EasyMac View Post
If we had Jonathan Blum, that would mean we may not have Hartnell or Timonen as Blum was selected with the 1st rounder Philly sent to Nashville for their rights.
You do know that both Hatnell and Timonen weren't actually signed until AFTER FA started right??? It's not like trading that 1st to get their "rights" actually got them signed here any earlier. Teams "talk" to pending UFA's starting just after the draft, it's just that they "look the other way". Timone told Holmgren specifically that he wasn't signing here unless we signed a legit #1 center, hence why we HAD to go out and sign Briere. The point is that we COULD have held on to that pick, talked to Timonen and Hartnell "behind closed doors" and STILL signed them on the exact same minute that we did with having traded away that pick.

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10-10-2011, 02:28 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So...you're totally OK with the fact that Homer shoots the team in the foot routinely? Watching him do stuff that clearly hurts the team (yes, Shelley's signing IS that freaking bad, especially since he let Asham walk in the process) doesn't bother you at all? It sure as hell bothers me. Many of the problems that Homer has to solve and respond to were created by his actions. I'd rather see him not screw simple crap up in the first place.
1) I love how being the GM of one of the most profitable and competitive sports franchises in the country is "simple" to you.

2) As I have said in the past, all of these "shooting the team in the foot" incidents do not outweigh the other good moves. If that wasn't true, this team would not be as competitive as it is/has been since he took over. If these moves were so bad that his good moves were outweighed, don't you think this team would be in worse shape? Not a Cup Contender filled with youth and talent? ****, no, Scottie Upshall and his 50 career points are gone! So is that second round pick! OMG Jody Shelley sucks bad.

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10-10-2011, 02:32 PM
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This all comes down to a simple thing...


Would you, right now and five years into the future, rather be in the position of the Flyers or the position of Insert Any NHL Team?


There are very few if any teams I pick over the Flyers, and should those teams exist they're teams like Edmonton, teams built on the backs of sucking for so long. LA, though partially built on sucking, puts up a good argument though, and guess what; they're built on the same Flyers that you're discussing.

Pittsburgh Penguins? No.
New York Rangers? No.
New York Islanders? No.
New Jersey Devils? Maybe...

Buffalo Sabres? Possible but doubtful.
Boston Bruins? Maybe...
Toronto Maple Leafs? No.
Montreal Canadiens? No.
Ottawa Senators? No.

Washington Capitals? Maybe...
Tampa Bay Lightning? Maybe...
Carolina Hurricanes? No.
Florida Panthers? No.
Winnipeg Jets? No.

Columbus Blue Jackets? No.
Chicago Blackhawks? No.
Detroit Red Wings? No.
St. Louis Blues? No.
Nashville Predators? No.

Vancouver Canucks? Possible but doubtful.
Calgary Flames? No.
Edmonton Oilers? Probably...
Colorado Avalanche? No.
Minnesota Wild? No.

San Jose Sharks? Maybe...
Los Angeles Kings? Maybe...
Anaheim Ducks? No.
Phoenix Coytoes? No.
Dallas Stars? No.


The truth is that our defense is one future top pairing guy away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, and possibly Read, Akeson, and Ranford among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have a stud goalie now, and a potential starting goalie for the next decade in Bob.

We are pretty much set perfectly.


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Old
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
1) I love how being the GM of one of the most profitable and competitive sports franchises in the country is "simple" to you.

2) As I have said in the past, all of these "shooting the team in the foot" incidents do not outweigh the other good moves. If that wasn't true, this team would not be as competitive as it is/has been since he took over. If these moves were so bad that his good moves were outweighed, don't you think this team would be in worse shape? Not a Cup Contender filled with youth and talent? ****, no, Scottie Upshall and his 50 career points are gone! So is that second round pick! OMG Jody Shelley sucks bad.
1) Show me where I said it's simple. Go on, I'm waiting. I've likely only got about 60 years of life left though, and I fear that won't be enough time for you to find it. Strawman ahoy!

2) The bad moves hinder the good moves. The team is competitive despite the bad moves, and without them they'd be even better. You'll also need to go back and notice that I never said the bad moves outweigh the good moves.

Dude...please actually read my posts and respond to them, instead of pretending I said something.

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10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
  #68
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He makes up for his bad moves.

Meszaros for 2nd was lovely, for example.

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10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
  #69
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You do know that both Hatnell and Timonen weren't actually signed until AFTER FA started right??? It's not like trading that 1st to get their "rights" actually got them signed here any earlier. Teams "talk" to pending UFA's starting just after the draft, it's just that they "look the other way". Timone told Holmgren specifically that he wasn't signing here unless we signed a legit #1 center, hence why we HAD to go out and sign Briere. The point is that we COULD have held on to that pick, talked to Timonen and Hartnell "behind closed doors" and STILL signed them on the exact same minute that we did with having traded away that pick.
I love how people know exactly what goes on behind closed doors. You must be an insider right?

If you don't think trading that first rounder for Hartnell and Timonen's rights was a stroke of genius then I have no words for you. You are just like 90% of the people that blast on Holmgren here. You always brush aside the good moves to help prove your point when the bad ones come around.

It's laughable.

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10-10-2011, 02:46 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This all comes down to a simple thing...


Would you, right now and a few years into the future, rather be in the position of the Flyers or the position of Insert Any NHL Team?


There are very few if any teams I pick over the Flyers, and should those teams exist they're teams like Edmonton, teams built on the backs of sucking for so long. LA, though partially built on sucking, puts up a good argument though, and guess what; they're built on the same Flyers that you're discussing.

Pittsburgh Penguins? No.
New York Rangers? No.
New York Islanders? No.
New Jersey Devils? Maybe...

Buffalo Sabres? Possible but doubtful.
Boston Bruins? Maybe...
Toronto Maple Leafs? No.
Montreal Canadiens? No.
Ottawa Senators? **** no.

Washington Capitals? Maybe...
Tampa Bay Lightning? Maybe...
Carolina Hurricanes? No.
Florida Panthers? No.
Winnipeg Jets? No.

Columbus Blue Jackets? No.
Chicago Blackhawks? No.
Detroit Red Wings? No.
St. Louis Blues? No.
Nashville Predators? No.

Vancouver Canucks? Possible but doubtful.
Calgary Flames? No.
Edmonton Oilers? Probably...
Colorado Avalanche? No.
Minnesota Wild? No.

San Jose Sharks? Maybe...
Los Angeles Kings? Maybe...
Anaheim Ducks? No.
Phoenix Coytoes? No.
Dallas Stars? No.


The truth is that our defense is one future top pairing guy away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, and possibly Read, Akeson, and Ranford among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23.
I wouldn't mind being the reigning Stanley Cup champions with some pretty solid players in the system and a guy like Seguin entering his second season.

It's also a bit unfair to a lot of the "no's", because they can't spend as much as we can. I kind of like Homer's aggressive style, to be completely honest. He makes things interesting, if nothing else... but if he'd been the GM of Phoenix or Nashville and handled things in the same manner, there's no way he'd gotten those teams to the playoffs.

This doesn't mean that Poile and Maloney necessarily are that much better GM's. They might fail terribly if they're given the money to spend.

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10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This all comes down to a simple thing...


Would you, right now and five years into the future, rather be in the position of the Flyers or the position of Insert Any NHL Team?


There are very few if any teams I pick over the Flyers, and should those teams exist they're teams like Edmonton, teams built on the backs of sucking for so long. LA, though partially built on sucking, puts up a good argument though, and guess what; they're built on the same Flyers that you're discussing.

Pittsburgh Penguins? No.
New York Rangers? No.
New York Islanders? No.
New Jersey Devils? Maybe...

Buffalo Sabres? Possible but doubtful.
Boston Bruins? Maybe...
Toronto Maple Leafs? No.
Montreal Canadiens? No.
Ottawa Senators? No.

Washington Capitals? Maybe...
Tampa Bay Lightning? Maybe...
Carolina Hurricanes? No.
Florida Panthers? No.
Winnipeg Jets? No.

Columbus Blue Jackets? No.
Chicago Blackhawks? No.
Detroit Red Wings? No.
St. Louis Blues? No.
Nashville Predators? No.

Vancouver Canucks? Possible but doubtful.
Calgary Flames? No.
Edmonton Oilers? Probably...
Colorado Avalanche? No.
Minnesota Wild? No.

San Jose Sharks? Maybe...
Los Angeles Kings? Maybe...
Anaheim Ducks? No.
Phoenix Coytoes? No.
Dallas Stars? No.


The truth is that our defense is one future top pairing guy away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, and possibly Read, Akeson, and Ranford among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have a stud goalie now, and a potential starting goalie for the next decade in Bob.

We are pretty much set perfectly.
Pronger is closing in on 40 and Kimmo is in his second last year on this contract. Who among Carle, Mez and Coburn is going to anchor one pair if we're only one other top guy away? Chances are, one of Coburn and Carle are going to be gone at season's end. Also remember that he traded 2 players away who took cap friendly hits before their NMCs came into effect, so players who may have thought this was a class organization are going to have second thoughts. Players and agents are going to remember what happened for a long time so taking a bit less money to come here is likely not going to happen.

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10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
1) Show me where I said it's simple. Go on, I'm waiting. I've likely only got about 60 years of life left though, and I fear that won't be enough time for you to find it. Strawman ahoy!
Umm...

Quote:
I'd rather see him not screw simple crap up in the first place.
Of course, you didn't say "Being a GM is simple," but you are saying that this is simple, when it reality it isn't. A lot more goes into signing any one player, no matter how good or how bad.

Quote:
2) The bad moves hinder the good moves. The team is competitive despite the bad moves, and without them they'd be even better. You'll also need to go back and notice that I never said the bad moves outweigh the good moves.

Dude...please actually read my posts and respond to them, instead of pretending I said something.
I know you never used those exact words, but you keep pointing to bad moves and I keep saying they don't outweigh the good moves. Saying they hinder the good moves, which I have never seen you say or even insinuate before this post, is just as speculative as saying they are outweighed so for every argument I made, just replace "outweigh" with "hinder" and the posts should read the same. There is no way in hell to prove it, which is why all you can look at are the results. If this team was in trouble and missing the playoffs, ok lets fire up the torches and pitchforks and go down to the Wells Fargo Center. But these guys are perennial contenders with a very young core. Having Shelley sucks, no doubt, but as I have said, not having may very well suck just the same by inserting a different player for $1.1 million or however much depending the other moves that made WHICH WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN.

It's easy to say X, Y, or Z would have been better, but here's something for you, if Shelley wasn't signed, what would have happened? Where would that extra money have gone? You don't know. I'm sure you think you know, or you have an idea of where it should go, but in the end, you do not know. It could have gone somewhere more useful. It also could have gone somewhere worse. Maybe Carter would still be here. Maybe Richards would be. Maybe Bryz wouldn't be. Maybe JvR would have been traded to get a more seasoned veteran. Maybe Leino would still be here. Maybe Hartnell would be gone. Maybe Gretzky would have came out of retirement. And so forth and so on. So yes, things could have been better, I agree, but you are just talking about things that are not provable by anything other than speculation. All we have are results, and they are good results, despite the bad contracts/trades that have been made.

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Old
10-10-2011, 02:55 PM
  #73
MsWoof
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I love how people know exactly what goes on behind closed doors. You must be an insider right?

If you don't think trading that first rounder for Hartnell and Timonen's rights was a stroke of genius then I have no words for you. You are just like 90% of the people that blast on Holmgren here. You always brush aside the good moves to help prove your point when the bad ones come around.

It's laughable.
Kind of like all the people who just knew exactly what was going on in the locker room that caused Richards and Carter to get traded, right? Puh-lease!


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Old
10-10-2011, 02:58 PM
  #74
Spongolium*
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Pronger is closing in on 40 and Kimmo is in his second last year on this contract. Who among Carle, Mez and Coburn is going to anchor one pair if we're only one other top guy away? Chances are, one of Coburn and Carle are going to be gone at season's end. Also remember that he traded 2 players away who took cap friendly hits before their NMCs came into effect, so players who may have thought this was a class organization are going to have second thoughts. Players and agents are going to remember what happened for a long time so taking a bit less money to come here is likely not going to happen.
You mean like Bryzgalov and JVR signing an extension?

Those deals mean nothing. The flyers are still the top dog.

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Old
10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
  #75
LetsGoFlyers1825
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If we trade for Bryz's rights, and then dont sign him Homer is an idiot. What a waste.

We sign Bryz. Yes the contract is awful, but it holds much more sway over the fact that we do have a number #1 goalie.

It just seems like people care so much about having a great team until a favorite like Upshall/Gagne/Richards becomes the player who leaves.

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