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Old
10-10-2011, 02:01 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Umm...



Of course, you didn't say "Being a GM is simple," but you are saying that this is simple, when it reality it isn't. A lot more goes into signing any one player, no matter how good or how bad.



I know you never used those exact words, but you keep pointing to bad moves and I keep saying they don't outweigh the good moves. Saying they hinder the good moves, which I have never seen you say or even insinuate before this post, is just as speculative as saying they are outweighed so for every argument I made, just replace "outweigh" with "hinder" and the posts should read the same. There is no way in hell to prove it, which is why all you can look at are the results. If this team was in trouble and missing the playoffs, ok lets fire up the torches and pitchforks and go down to the Wells Fargo Center. But these guys are perennial contenders with a very young core. Having Shelley sucks, no doubt, but as I have said, not having may very well suck just the same by inserting a different player for $1.1 million or however much depending the other moves that made WHICH WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN.

It's easy to say X, Y, or Z would have been better, but here's something for you, if Shelley wasn't signed, what would have happened? Where would that extra money have gone? You don't know. I'm sure you think you know, or you have an idea of where it should go, but in the end, you do not know. It could have gone somewhere more useful. It also could have gone somewhere worse. Maybe Carter would still be here. Maybe Richards would be. Maybe Bryz wouldn't be. Maybe JvR would have been traded to get a more seasoned veteran. Maybe Leino would still be here. Maybe Hartnell would be gone. Maybe Gretzky would have came out of retirement. And so forth and so on. So yes, things could have been better, I agree, but you are just talking about things that are not provable by anything other than speculation. All we have are results, and they are good results, despite the bad contracts/trades that have been made.
I'm just ignoring the rest of your post, because it's clear all you're interested in doing is shoving words into my mouth and then arguing based around that, without even trying to discern what my real views on Homer are. You clearly think I'm a blind hater, and I'm not. If you pay attention, you'll notice that I routinely give Homer praise when he does good things. On the other hand, I also criticize him for the things he deserves criticism for. Believe it or not, those things exist. So sorry for trying to see both sides of the story, I guess.

So, if I didn't freaking say something, then DON'T SAY THAT I DID. And yes, do you know what is simple? Reading. Homer often screws crap up that would require simply reading a paragraph or two in the CBA, something that many of us here and in the media do. Recent example (one of many): the Talbot contract. It truly doesn't get any simpler than that. A 5th grader could construct a contract using the very simple instructions detailed in that section of the CBA.

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10-10-2011, 02:06 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The truth is that our defense is one future top pairing guy away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, and possibly Read, Akeson, and Ranford among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have a stud goalie now, and a potential starting goalie for the next decade in Bob.

We are pretty much set perfectly.
The truth is that our defense is not that far away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have Richards, Carter, Umberger, Lupul, Upshall, vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, and possibly Nodl and Maroon among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have Parent who is going to be stud, Coburn who was a steal, and Marshall who looks solid. Biron is more than capable now. Look for us to draft a goalie next summer.

We are pretty much set perfectly.

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10-10-2011, 02:11 PM
  #78
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I have always felt that Holmgren has been a lightning rod for Controversy especially with the moves he has made the past 2 years. Its just the reaction of a typical short sighted fan base that is driven by emotional irrational. Its impossible to discuss logically on here since no one take the time to apply logic and reason to this discussion.

So Ill just give a rough overview of where we are and where we were. When homer took over we were in disarray as a franchise. We are now in a spot where we can win a cup this year, and win cups in the future with a bright young core that we currently have. I feel that many teams would be envious of the position that we are currently in.
I also feel that Homer , as well as other people have played a key role in this. That is all

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10-10-2011, 02:23 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
The truth is that our defense is not that far away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have Richards, Carter, Umberger, Lupul, Upshall, vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, and possibly Nodl and Maroon among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have Parent who is going to be stud, Coburn who was a steal, and Marshall who looks solid. Biron is more than capable now. Look for us to draft a goalie next summer.

We are pretty much set perfectly.
lol wtf...

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10-10-2011, 02:29 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
The truth is that our defense is not that far away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have Richards, Carter, Umberger, Lupul, Upshall, vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, and possibly Nodl and Maroon among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have Parent who is going to be stud, Coburn who was a steal, and Marshall who looks solid. Biron is more than capable now. Look for us to draft a goalie next summer.

We are pretty much set perfectly.
Uhhh, wut?

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10-10-2011, 02:49 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
lol wtf...

The future looks great. We have a top 9 consisting of Gagné(who should be healthy the next season)-Richards-Knuble, Hartnell-Carter-Lupul and Umberger-Bričre-Upshall, with Downie, Giroux and van Riemsdyk on their way up. On defense, Timonen has had an absolutely brilliant first season and was excellent in the playoffs before being injured. Coburn is coming off a very impressive 37 pts season and should only get better. Parent looked real solid when he was thrown into the fire in the playoffs and should be a great shutdown d for years to come (maybe paired with Marshall?).

Then we have guys like Matsumoto, Maroon, Nödl, Kalinski (who had 3 assists in just 5 games with the Phantoms, it will be interesting to see what he can do in a full season), that Bartulis kid could become pretty good. Lehtivuori could be the steal of the draft by the looks of how he's playing in Finland. I also have a bit of a soft spot for Mario Kempe, that kid can deke!

I hope we can get John Carlson in the first round. Our top four would be set for the future once he's ready.


I expanded it a little. I think he's talking about how we all felt we had such a bright future with the team that reached ECF in 07-08. It just needed a few tweakings after all...


Last edited by mirimon: 10-10-2011 at 02:56 PM.
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Old
10-10-2011, 02:49 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
lol wtf...
I think his point is that Chris could and would have been saying the same thing three years ago before any of Holmgren's recent moves, because Chris is a glass is always half full kind of guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Bold denotes a player acquired by Holmgren via draft, trade, or free agent signing since taking over for Bobby Clarke.



...

So what's your point? That as time has gone on this team has more and more of Holmgren's finger prints all over it? The fact that as his tenure as GM goes on more of the players on the team are ones he acquired doesn't indicate anything other than the fact that rosters turnover.

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10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think his point is that Chris could and would have been saying the same thing three years ago before any of Holmgren's recent moves, because Chris is a glass is always half full kind of guy.
Is there a problem with me being a "glass half full" guy? I'm always honest with my opinion if that's the problem here.

Also, yes I could've said the same thing a number of years ago...

And, yes right after I was saying that we went to an Eastern Conference Finals and a Stanley Cup Finals.

And, yes Holmgren was just as responsible for the team then as he is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
So what's your point? That as time has gone on this team has more and more of Holmgren's finger prints all over it? The fact that as his tenure as GM goes on more of the players on the team are ones he acquired doesn't indicate anything other than the fact that rosters turnover.
It wasn't so much a point as opposed to a diagram for reference. You can see how much the team has shifted under Holmgren's tenure.

Also, I think he compared Maroon, Nodl, Kalinski, Kempe, and Lehtivuori to Read, Akeson, Ranford, Wellwood, and Gustafsson.

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10-10-2011, 03:06 PM
  #84
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its obvious that those other guys were not working here, they had their chance to get it done for the past few years and did not. Sure we didnt have a goalie, but a goalie was not going to help us last year, the bruins skated all over us, and that was the problem with those guys.

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10-10-2011, 03:11 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
its obvious that those other guys were not working here, they had their chance to get it done for the past few years and did not. Sure we didnt have a goalie, but a goalie was not going to help us last year, the bruins skated all over us, and that was the problem with those guys.
I wodner if the 5 players who needed surgery, the long playoff run/short offseason, and having half our defense injured had anything to do with it?

I don't care who's on your team, if you're as banged up as the Flyers were going into the playoffs, you just aren't going to win.

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10-10-2011, 03:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I wodner if the 5 players who needed surgery, the long playoff run/short offseason, and having half our defense injured had anything to do with it?

I don't care who's on your team, if you're as banged up as the Flyers were going into the playoffs, you just aren't going to win.
I agree but it slipped before the playoffs, and while there may have been injuries then as well, the pens seemed to still play hard and compete.

This team fell apart after the all star break. They took multiple periods off, sometimes entire games, and it was the most frusterating thing to watch. They may have been banged up, but that is no excuse for not giving 100%.

Noone can sit and say the flyers tried their hardest at the end of last year...in my eyes lots of them gave up, and it wasnt acceptable

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10-10-2011, 03:22 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
I agree but it slipped before the playoffs, and while there may have been injuries then as well, the pens seemed to still play hard and compete.

This team fell apart after the all star break. They took multiple periods off, sometimes entire games, and it was the most frusterating thing to watch. They may have been banged up, but that is no excuse for not giving 100%.

Noone can sit and say the flyers tried their hardest at the end of last year...in my eyes lots of them gave up, and it wasnt acceptable
The Pens weren't rolling with a considerable number of players who needed surgery, plus the guys who were just gimpy on top of that. We were.

I don't think they gave up. I think they weren't physically capable of keeping up. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens to Vancouver this year.

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10-10-2011, 03:25 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm just ignoring the rest of your post, because it's clear all you're interested in doing is shoving words into my mouth and then arguing based around that, without even trying to discern what my real views on Homer are. You clearly think I'm a blind hater, and I'm not. If you pay attention, you'll notice that I routinely give Homer praise when he does good things. On the other hand, I also criticize him for the things he deserves criticism for. Believe it or not, those things exist. So sorry for trying to see both sides of the story, I guess.

So, if I didn't freaking say something, then DON'T SAY THAT I DID. And yes, do you know what is simple? Reading. Homer often screws crap up that would require simply reading a paragraph or two in the CBA, something that many of us here and in the media do. Recent example (one of many): the Talbot contract. It truly doesn't get any simpler than that. A 5th grader could construct a contract using the very simple instructions detailed in that section of the CBA.
Dude, come on. I'm not putting words in your mouth, you said he screws up simple things, as if the CBA and signing players is simple. No, the words you used were not "Being a GM is simple." But if saying he screws up simple things, which I'd argue the CBA and signing players is not simple, you are implying that being a GM is at least, in some ways, simple.

Arguing the he said she said is a great way to shift the focus off my argument, that being that you are putting speculative results above, or at least on the same level as, actual ones.

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10-10-2011, 03:31 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Dude, come on. I'm not putting words in your mouth, you said he screws up simple things, as if the CBA and signing players is simple. No, the words you used were not "Being a GM is simple." But if saying he screws up simple things, which I'd argue the CBA and signing players is not simple, you are implying that being a GM is at least, in some ways, simple.

Arguing the he said she said is a great way to shift the focus off my argument, that being that you are putting speculative results above, or at least on the same level as, actual ones.
You're taking what I said, and turning it into something completely different. I'm not going to bother debating you while you do that, because there's no point trying. I say something, you change it and debate something else that I'm not even saying.

edit: It took me 7 minutes to find the relevant information in the CBA. 7 minutes. That's pretty simple.

Quote:
"100 Percent Rule" for Multi-Year SPCs. The difference between the stated
Player Salary and Bonuses in the first two League Years of an SPC cannot exceed the
amount of the lower of the two League Years. Thereafter, in all subsequent League
Years of the SPC, (i) any increase in Player Salary and Bonuses from one League Year to
another may not exceed the amount of the lower of the first two League Years of the SPC
(or, if such amounts are the same, that same amount); and (ii) any decrease in Player
Salary and Bonuses from one League Year to another may not exceed 50 percent of the
Player Salary and Bonuses of the lower of the first two League Years of the SPC (or, if
such amounts are the same, 50 percent of that same amount)
(edit 2: Hell, they even have 7 examples of correct contract structure)

I'm just some dude on the internet, and I can find this information. The Flyers organization failed to properly research the multi-million dollar legal document they were drafting, and they did it wrong...despite the fact that in this case, researching it is apparently pretty simple.

Now I guess I wait for you to twist "finding this was easy" into "YOU THINK EVERYTHING A GM DOES IS EASY."


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10-10-2011, 03:33 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The Pens weren't rolling with a considerable number of players who needed surgery, plus the guys who were just gimpy on top of that. We were.

I don't think they gave up. I think they weren't physically capable of keeping up. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens to Vancouver this year.
I agree they were banged up, and really we probably could not expect a whole heck of a lot, but I just cannot find an excuse for the fact they would take the first period off, show up for the second and half the third, then just coast. This seemed like it was happening every game, if you are banged up and struggle to physically perform it should have been all game every game, but they seemed to bring it for a bit then would just quit.

I understand he was hurt, and didnt look right, but richards to me was just coasting around the ice far too much... and he was my favourite flyer so no hate.

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10-10-2011, 03:51 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're taking what I said, and turning it into something completely different. I'm not going to bother debating you while you do that, because there's no point trying. I say something, you change it and debate something else that I'm not even saying.

edit: It took me 7 minutes to find the relevant information in the CBA. 7 minutes. That's pretty simple.



(edit 2: Hell, they even have 7 examples of correct contract structure)

I'm just some dude on the internet, and I can find this information. The Flyers organization failed to properly research the multi-million dollar legal document they were drafting, and they did it wrong...despite the fact that in this case, researching it is apparently pretty simple.

Now I guess I wait for you to twist "finding this was easy" into "YOU THINK EVERYTHING A GM DOES IS EASY."
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but prior to the Talbot situation, I am betting you wouldn't have known the proper structure for contracts. Just a guess. Let's put this issue aside then, I put words in your mouth, and for that, I apologize. Instead of responding to a comment I made about your argument, could you respond to my actual argument, that you (and others) are basing your feelings on Homer and his bad moves hindering the good moves purely on speculation of what could have been rather than actual results?

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10-10-2011, 03:54 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but prior to the Talbot situation, I am betting you wouldn't have known the proper structure for contracts. Just a guess. Let's put this issue aside then, I put words in your mouth, and for that, I apologize. Instead of responding to a comment I made about your argument, could you respond to my actual argument, that you (and others) are basing your feelings on Homer and his bad moves hindering the good moves purely on speculation of what could have been rather than actual results?
If I had to make a contract, you better believe that I'd pull out the CBA and carefully read every passage relating to contracts. And really...it isn't all that terribly difficult, especially when you consider that this isn't exactly a new CBA. The thing has been around for 6 years now, there's now excuse for not knowing it. I'm not looking forward to this summer when the CBA gets tweaked.

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10-10-2011, 04:02 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If I had to make a contract, you better believe that I'd pull out the CBA and carefully read every passage relating to contracts. And really...it isn't all that terribly difficult, especially when you consider that this isn't exactly a new CBA. The thing has been around for 6 years now, there's now excuse for not knowing it. I'm not looking forward to this summer when the CBA gets tweaked.
So you're not going to address what I was originally saying in response to your post on the last page?

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10-10-2011, 04:03 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The Pens weren't rolling with a considerable number of players who needed surgery, plus the guys who were just gimpy on top of that. We were.

I don't think they gave up. I think they weren't physically capable of keeping up. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens to Vancouver this year.
The penguins are a team that is built around 2 world beaters down the middle and a third shutdown centre. They lost the first two and the third was hardly lighting the world on fire, yet they still out-performed the flyers in every possible way.

If you believe that the flyers inconsistency was purely down to nagging injuries then you need to be told that every player in every team in this league is dealing with an injury of some sort. The flyers lost something last year, which has (for as long as I have been watching) never once been found missing. Their drive.

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10-10-2011, 04:07 PM
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The penguins are a team that is built around 2 world beaters down the middle and a third shutdown centre. They lost the first two and the third was hardly lighting the world on fire, yet they still out-performed the flyers in every possible way.

If you believe that the flyers inconsistency was purely down to nagging injuries then you need to be told that every player in every team in this league is dealing with an injury of some sort. The flyers lost something last year, which has (for as long as I have been watching) never once been found missing. Their drive.
Totally agree, I mean it came down to shipping out our two cornerstones, their terrible second half and lack of an effort in most games was putrid, management must have saw something more than injuries was plagueing this team.

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10-10-2011, 04:11 PM
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Totally agree, I mean it came down to shipping out our two cornerstones, their terrible second half and lack of an effort in most games was putrid, management must have saw something more than injuries was plagueing this team.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck...

But some people around here on this board swear it's a ****ing horse.

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10-10-2011, 04:17 PM
  #97
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So you're not going to address what I was originally saying in response to your post on the last page?
Sure. I'm cutting out the part about "we just don't know" because, yeah, we just don't know.

Quote:
I know you never used those exact words, but you keep pointing to bad moves and I keep saying they don't outweigh the good moves. Saying they hinder the good moves, which I have never seen you say or even insinuate before this post, is just as speculative as saying they are outweighed so for every argument I made, just replace "outweigh" with "hinder" and the posts should read the same. There is no way in hell to prove it, which is why all you can look at are the results. If this team was in trouble and missing the playoffs, ok lets fire up the torches and pitchforks and go down to the Wells Fargo Center. But these guys are perennial contenders with a very young core. Having Shelley sucks, no doubt, but as I have said, not having may very well suck just the same by inserting a different player for $1.1 million or however much depending the other moves that made WHICH WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN.

It's easy to say X, Y, or Z would have been better, but here's something for you, if Shelley wasn't signed, what would have happened? Where would that extra money have gone? You don't know
Just making the playoffs isn't good enough. Lots of teams make the playoffs annually, but aren't realistic contenders. To be a realistic contender, the GM needs to not make dumb mistakes. It's hard enough as it is to win a Cup, and the team doesn't need random stupid decisions and signings weighing them down. The 1.1 million dollars for Shelley could have gone to a real 4th liner for instance. Who? I don't know. I don't recall who was available. Just holding on to Asham alone would have been an improvement since Beets and Powe wouldn't be dragging a lump around...a more effective 4th line takes some of the load off the other lines. The team has to be sharp, and so does the GM. Holmgren makes a lot of good moves, but he turns around and hamstrings then with brainfarts...as a result, it hampers the the team's chances. Would we have won a cup with a real player instead of an aging enforcer? Who knows...but it would've made the team's job easier, and that's what a GM should strive to do...make it as easy as he can for a team to win a Cup. Homer doesn't always do that.

I don't know if that made sense or not, my decongestant wore off half an hour ago and I'm struggling to concentrate through all the snot in my damned skull.

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10-10-2011, 04:20 PM
  #98
SgtJoseph
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Homer is one of the best GMs in the NHL in my opinion........Great goalies, great defense, great speed, strong in the corners, and a nice mix of youth and veterans, whats really not to like ? Sure Homer has his moments and he makes a few cap snafus now and then, but you just gotta love how our club competes and is always clawing its way toward the goal of winning another cup.
The whole NHL cap thing is really a tough thing to manage year in and year out, and it will NEVER allow a team to become 100% 'COMFORTABLE" with the club it builds each year, because its designed that way to some extent...Players Age, get injured, lose confidence, get divorced, etc, which may suddenly make a 3 or 4 year contract suddenly look bad or stupid ?
Homers moves this off season were very corageous, and it took a lot of grit to pull the trigger, but he did and i really admire that kind of leadership......Great job Homer , now learn how to ride a bicycle ! lol

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10-10-2011, 04:23 PM
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Spongolium*
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Wait, Did shelley even play in the finals?

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10-10-2011, 04:31 PM
  #100
Beef Invictus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Wait, Did shelley even play in the finals?
He wasn't on the team in the Finals, so no.

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