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Old
10-10-2011, 04:35 PM
  #101
Snipsnap12
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Wait, Did shelley even play in the finals?
No he was on the rangers that year, he scored both games against us in those back to back games to see who goes to the playoffs.

Who would have guessed he do that? smh

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10-10-2011, 04:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
No he was on the rangers that year, he scored both games against us in those back to back games to see who goes to the playoffs.

Who would have guessed he do that? smh
This is likely why he became a Flyer.

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10-10-2011, 04:43 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sure. I'm cutting out the part about "we just don't know" because, yeah, we just don't know.



Just making the playoffs isn't good enough. Lots of teams make the playoffs annually, but aren't realistic contenders. To be a realistic contender, the GM needs to not make dumb mistakes. It's hard enough as it is to win a Cup, and the team doesn't need random stupid decisions and signings weighing them down. The 1.1 million dollars for Shelley could have gone to a real 4th liner for instance. Who? I don't know. I don't recall who was available. Just holding on to Asham alone would have been an improvement since Beets and Powe wouldn't be dragging a lump around...a more effective 4th line takes some of the load off the other lines. The team has to be sharp, and so does the GM. Holmgren makes a lot of good moves, but he turns around and hamstrings then with brainfarts...as a result, it hampers the the team's chances. Would we have won a cup with a real player instead of an aging enforcer? Who knows...but it would've made the team's job easier, and that's what a GM should strive to do...make it as easy as he can for a team to win a Cup. Homer doesn't always do that.

I don't know if that made sense or not, my decongestant wore off half an hour ago and I'm struggling to concentrate through all the snot in my damned skull.
That makes sense. I don't agree with you, though. It's a lot of ifs in there. Using the Shelley situation as an example, that money didn't necessarily have to go to a 4th liner. It could have been used to make a trade. Could have went to a defender. Could have went anywhere. Its several layers of speculation. First you have to speculate where the money would have went, which we just don't know. Then you have to speculate as to what the results of that would have been. That is why I say you can't look at the what ifs, only the results, which have been favorable.

The money could have gone to Asham, for instance like you said. And I agree, that sounds like it would have been a much smarter move, no doubt. But that didn't happen and Asham may have had a real bad season, which is just as likely as him having a good season. Or a trade could have been, maybe JvR or Coburn or someone would be dealt to bring in someone or something like that. And that move may have helped too or that move may have hurt. Maybe a different move that was made wouldn't have been made and that could have helped or hurt as well. All this speculation as to what could have happened and what the results of those "could have beens" are is just far too uncertain for me to base an opinion of the guys work when we have actual concrete evidence of what did happen (i.e. deep playoff runs). Any moves that could have been made that weren't or not made that could have been could have had a seemingly infinite number of results both good and bad. Some may have been better, others a wash, others worse. But there is literally no way to know and you seem to be giving more weight to the "could have been" results rather than the actual results.

Because of the nature of the game, playoff runs really good enough for a GM. No GM is going to win a Cup every year. There are 30 teams and one wins each year. The Flyers have won at least one playoff series every year but one IIRC since Homer has been in command and the year they didn't they lost to the eventual champs. There really isn't much else he could have done that wouldn't be unprecedented in today's NHL.

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Old
10-10-2011, 04:55 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck...

But some people around here on this board swear it's a ****ing horse.

The problem really is that people think they're seeing a Duck, when they're really not. Some are brainwashed into seeing a Duck, when it's really a horse.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sure. I'm cutting out the part about "we just don't know" because, yeah, we just don't know.



Just making the playoffs isn't good enough. Lots of teams make the playoffs annually, but aren't realistic contenders. To be a realistic contender, the GM needs to not make dumb mistakes. It's hard enough as it is to win a Cup, and the team doesn't need random stupid decisions and signings weighing them down. The 1.1 million dollars for Shelley could have gone to a real 4th liner for instance. Who? I don't know. I don't recall who was available. Just holding on to Asham alone would have been an improvement since Beets and Powe wouldn't be dragging a lump around...a more effective 4th line takes some of the load off the other lines. The team has to be sharp, and so does the GM. Holmgren makes a lot of good moves, but he turns around and hamstrings then with brainfarts...as a result, it hampers the the team's chances. Would we have won a cup with a real player instead of an aging enforcer? Who knows...but it would've made the team's job easier, and that's what a GM should strive to do...make it as easy as he can for a team to win a Cup. Homer doesn't always do that.

I don't know if that made sense or not, my decongestant wore off half an hour ago and I'm struggling to concentrate through all the snot in my damned skull.
Look at the Roster and the lineup for the last 2 games. Who was the 4th line? It was Rinaldo, Nodl, and Talbot. Is that a real 4th line? Jody Shelley being on the Roster isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. And hasn't stopped them from doing anything since he's been here. And if the Flyers think that he is, that is easily rectified. In the blink of an eye. Shelley isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. Look at the talent on this team. Just because the fans don't like the player, doesn't mean it was a dumb move.

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10-10-2011, 04:59 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The problem really is that people think they're seeing a Duck, when they're really not. Some are brainwashed into seeing a Duck, when it's really a horse.



Look at the Roster and the lineup for the last 2 games. Who was the 4th line? It was Rinaldo, Nodl, and Talbot. Is that a real 4th line? Jody Shelley being on the Roster isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. And hasn't stopped them from doing anything since he's been here. And if the Flyers think that he is, that is easily rectified. In the blink of an eye. Shelley isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. Look at the talent on this team. Just because the fans don't like the player, doesn't mean it was a dumb move.
1.1 million for what jody shelley brings to the team is a BAD move.

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10-10-2011, 05:00 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The problem really is that people think they're seeing a Duck, when they're really not. Some are brainwashed into seeing a Duck, when it's really a horse.



Look at the Roster and the lineup for the last 2 games. Who was the 4th line? It was Rinaldo, Nodl, and Talbot. Is that a real 4th line? Jody Shelley being on the Roster isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. And hasn't stopped them from doing anything since he's been here. And if the Flyers think that he is, that is easily rectified. In the blink of an eye. Shelley isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. Look at the talent on this team. Just because the fans don't like the player, doesn't mean it was a dumb move.
Shelley hasn't HELPED the Flyers. They would have been better of spending his money on someone else actually worth 1.1 million dollars.

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10-10-2011, 05:00 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
1.1 million for what jody shelley brings to the team is a BAD move.
We all know he's overpaid. But in the big picture, it's not nearly as big of a deal as it's made out to be. It is not hampering the Flyers in any way.

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10-10-2011, 05:01 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
We all know he's overpaid. But in the big picture, it's not nearly as big of a deal as it's made out to be. It is not hampering the Flyers in any way.
His contract and cap hit will be if we want to keep Courturier while calling up Schenn.

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10-10-2011, 05:02 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Shelley hasn't HELPED the Flyers. They would have been better of spending his money on someone else actually worth 1.1 million dollars.
I think it's an opinion that he hasn't helped the Flyers, not a fact. If the Flyers felt that way, he wouldn't still be on the team. The Flyers had that option and still have that option if they want to choose to spend that money on someone else

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10-10-2011, 05:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
His contract and cap hit will be if we want to keep Courturier while calling up Schenn.
No, it's not. The Flyers can easily make the Cap room and the contract room to keep Couturier, and call up Schenn when the time is right. Jody Shelley being on the team is not going to stop the Flyers from keeping Couturier, or calling up Schenn.

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10-10-2011, 05:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
No, it's not. The Flyers can easily make the Cap room and the contract room to keep Couturier, and call up Schenn when the time is right. Jody Shelley being on the team is not going to stop the Flyers from keeping Couturier, or calling up Schenn.
How? With magic?

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10-10-2011, 05:07 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How? With magic?
The Flyers have a lot of options open to them. For Cap space, one of them is waiving Jody Shelley anytime they want and he'll either be claimed which is doubtful, or clear, in which time they can send him to the AHL, and his remaining cap hit will be cleared.

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10-10-2011, 05:08 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Is there a problem with me being a "glass half full" guy? I'm always honest with my opinion if that's the problem here.
I wasn't commenting on you or your opinions in either a positive or negative way. I was simply trying to clarify what I thought another poster was getting at because someone else seemed confused. That is why I worded it mildly ("glass half full kind of guy"), so as not to overstate someone else's point.

Since it has come up, I will say that a lot of people would describe your take on Holmgren as pretty much being a pro-Flyers spin doctor (i.e. well past the point of just being optimistically predisposed). You get a little carried away sometimes in my opinion, but whatever, that's just my opinion and I'm not looking to reignite debates we've already settled or at least let go. I'm sure the new season will bring plenty of new crap for us to disagree about, lol.

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Also, yes I could've said the same thing a number of years ago...

And, yes right after I was saying that we went to an Eastern Conference Finals and a Stanley Cup Finals.

And, yes Holmgren was just as responsible for the team then as he is now.
The Flyers have been good under Holmgren, we get it.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It wasn't so much a point as opposed to a diagram for reference. You can see how much the team has shifted under Holmgren's tenure.
I think that degree of personnel turnover is probably above average. I don't think that is necessarily a good or bad thing in the abstract, it's just a symptom of how Holmgren does business. When some of that turnover was necessary because of iffy cap management....then I think you have the beginnings of a case for it being a bad thing.

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10-10-2011, 05:33 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How? With magic?
Betts may become a hindrance, but sending Walker down will allow for all 3 to be on the team. Rinaldo may also have to be sent down.

edit: this is after the Lappy LTIR and Schenn's bonus being erased.


Last edited by sobrien: 10-10-2011 at 06:17 PM.
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10-10-2011, 05:36 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The Flyers have a lot of options open to them. For Cap space, one of them is waiving Jody Shelley anytime they want and he'll either be claimed which is doubtful, or clear, in which time they can send him to the AHL, and his remaining cap hit will be cleared.
...so Shelley is a hindrance that needs to be cleared. That's pretty much what I'm going for here. Overall, the team is better off with him out of the way and with someone else in his roster spot.

edit: Essentially, Shelley needs to go so the team can improve. He shouldn't have been signed in the first place.

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10-10-2011, 05:38 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
The truth is that our defense is not that far away from being solid long-term, and we're going into a really defense-heavy first round draft next year with a pick that Holmgren has yet to trade away. Our offense is ridiculously young and ridiculously talented. It's almost not fair that we have Richards, Carter, Umberger, Lupul, Upshall, vanRiemsdyk, Giroux, and possibly Nodl and Maroon among others making a future all under the age of 25, most under the age of 23. We have Parent who is going to be stud, Coburn who was a steal, and Marshall who looks solid. Biron is more than capable now. Look for us to draft a goalie next summer.

We are pretty much set perfectly.
It was also a stroke of genius for Holmgren to use that time machine to sign Gretzky out of the WHA and transport his 18-year-old self to today. And I can't say enough about signing Grendel from Norse mythology to be our enforcer.

This alternate-universe thread is brought to you by the makers of Soylent Green.

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Old
10-10-2011, 06:15 PM
  #117
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Well after two games I was wondering where some of my fellow posters were. Now that there is a post where you came come out of the bushes and I see you have not disappeared. Homer is not perfect, but what GM is? It is one thing to debate something but the haters are gonna hate no matter what. Even when Holmgren does something right it is he got lucky or on those lines. I do not dwell on the past. I live in the present and the present looks good to me. It is a shame that some of you cannot enjoy the good times because it pains you to admit that the GM has done a good job. I could careless about the cap or contracts. All I care about is the product that is out on the ice and after two games it looks like we may be headed in the right direction. GO FLYERS!

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10-10-2011, 06:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
its obvious that those other guys were not working here, they had their chance to get it done for the past few years and did not. Sure we didnt have a goalie, but a goalie was not going to help us last year, the bruins skated all over us, and that was the problem with those guys.
Jesus Christ, yeah we ONLY got to the SCF. Yup, they weren't doing a thing right. The last 3 years they lost to the cup winners.

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10-10-2011, 06:32 PM
  #119
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We're 2-0, Homer is god send.

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10-10-2011, 06:43 PM
  #120
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Jesus Christ, yeah we ONLY got to the SCF. Yup, they weren't doing a thing right. The last 3 years they lost to the cup winners.
We were never going to win anything without a goaltender. NEVER.

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10-10-2011, 06:48 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
...so Shelley is a hindrance that needs to be cleared. That's pretty much what I'm going for here. Overall, the team is better off with him out of the way and with someone else in his roster spot.

edit: Essentially, Shelley needs to go so the team can improve. He shouldn't have been signed in the first place.
It's not a hindrance. Shelley isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. he doesn't need to go for the team to improve. And it's an opinion that he shouldn't have been signed in the first place. I wouldn't have signed him either, but that doesn't mean that it's a mistake.

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10-10-2011, 07:07 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
It's not a hindrance. Shelley isn't stopping the Flyers from doing anything. he doesn't need to go for the team to improve. And it's an opinion that he shouldn't have been signed in the first place. I wouldn't have signed him either, but that doesn't mean that it's a mistake.
It was a mistake because he doesn't help the team in any way and he takes up $1.1M in cap space. Even if we send him to the minors he still counts as a contract and the organization still has to pay him his money.

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10-10-2011, 07:13 PM
  #123
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It was a mistake because he doesn't help the team in any way and he takes up $1.1M in cap space. Even if we send him to the minors he still counts as a contract and the organization still has to pay him his money.
What do I care as a fan that they still have to pay him? Again, it's an opinion that Shelley doesn't help the team in any way. Do you think the Flyers feel the same way?

The contract issue isn't a major hurdle. It is a minor issue.

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10-10-2011, 07:14 PM
  #124
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We're 2-0, Homer is god send.
Yet if we were 0-2 everything would be Homer's fault.

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10-10-2011, 07:21 PM
  #125
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I think Homer is an above average GM but nothing more. I just wish he would actually tell the truth and stop avoiding all questions he is asked. Before the Boston game he said that Walker had "stuff to do" or something along those lines. As a result everyone assumed he was injured because Homer wouldn't give a specif reason. Earlier today on CSNphilly.com Tim wrote:
Quote:
Matt Walker said he was physically able to play at Boston and New Jersey. He denied he was benched because he had told reporters – to the dismay of Laviolette – that he expected to start against Boston.

He would not say what kept him out of the lineup. "I’ve heard and read some funny things. That's why it is more entertaining to see what gets thrown into the write-ups."
So what is really up with Walker?
Link:http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...230&feedID=695

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