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Old
10-10-2011, 07:08 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
How many Taylor Hall jerseys are they selling in Edmonton? He's set to become the face of that franchise.
That's a shame.

Because he is very, very ugly, you see.

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10-10-2011, 07:16 PM
  #77
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I don't think that's close. Taylor Hall is an incredible talent. None of those guys that we send back are anywhere near that level.

You also have to factor in marketability. How many Taylor Hall jerseys are they selling in Edmonton? He's set to become the face of that franchise. You don't get rid of a player like that for depth.

Realistically, we'd probably have to get rid of MDZ+ just for Paajarvi.
You're probably right.
Expect prospect/LW + Sauer + McDonagh + MDZ to be enough ballpark for Paajarvi.

Still, I was hoping Stepan would be viewed as a solid piece offsetting some of that talent loss, and the other additions would be worth it. Plus Biron for Kabibulin solves all their G issues, and makes room for us in that area as well.

Not saying there aren't downsides to my suggestion, just thinking we can take our chances if we finally get enough finishers at the right age for the right price so we aren't so desperate for goals EVERY night, we can hold the fort with Vtank plus until McIltrath + gets here. Plus if we make this kind of move to straighten out our serious problems, we might be able to have more flexibility about other moves (Gunnarrson?).

As to the marketing, etc., you raise a good point.
Except that (1) current Oil ownership supposedly has enough $$ that such extra is nice, but not essential; and (2) what's already made will sell out as collectibles, then Oilers will have basis to break out a new line of jerseys to their fans.

I think a large part of this is
does Edmonton want to go for it now and compete/develop ASAP?
Or do they want one more good draft?
Either way its about half the fan base, so who knows...

Maybe adding some draft picks?

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10-10-2011, 07:22 PM
  #78
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No way MDZ brings back anything of great value alone. His value is minor, all he has proven since his draft year is that at this stage of his development he belongs in the AHL. If somehow we could get a player with value back for MDZ we should move him. Personally I just don't see the high-end talent. I see a player who granted is still young, but continues to make the same mistakes, his defense and decision making are horrible.

His skating is average and he does not show the ability to carry the puck out of his zone and into the offensive zone to set up the attack. His shot is below average with little one-timer ability. He has not shown any ability to run a PP even though his vision/passing is supposed to be his strength. I very rarely see him make a real eye opening pass even on the PP. Enough with the stretch passes, make a 10-20 ft pass in your own zone in tight that sends your F's out of the zone with speed, never happens. Staal, and Girardi are not PMD but they excell at this, and McDonagh, and Sauer show the ability to move the puck in tight in the D zone. Even Erixon in very limited time has shown me a much greater ability to do this. He looks like he could eclipse MDZ in the puck moving department this year.

IMO MDZ is never going to be the PMD that some here think he is/can be, I hope I'm wrong but I would move him asap if the Oilers are willing to give up a young forward in the MPS mold. I fear he will bring a Sanguinetti type of deal in a year or so. MDZ for a 2nd that is the direction he is heading.


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Old
10-10-2011, 07:38 PM
  #79
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A LW player I'd trade Del Zotto for - Loui Ericsson. I know its early in the season but Loui is struggling. He can play LW and we know hes good with brad. Also a good friend of Henrik's. We know that Joe N might like DZ as it was a rumored piece in a Richards deal. Things might have changed since acquiring Goligoski (although I'm pretty sure that happened a bit before the deadline).

Anyways, just spitballing. long way till Saturday still feels like offseason

Edit: as I type this, I find out he scored haha. Anyways I'd trade a lot to get him, not just MDZ

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10-10-2011, 07:40 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
You're probably right.
Expect prospect/LW + Sauer + McDonagh + MDZ to be enough ballpark for Paajarvi.

Still, I was hoping Stepan would be viewed as a solid piece offsetting some of that talent loss, and the other additions would be worth it. Plus Biron for Kabibulin solves all their G issues, and makes room for us in that area as well.

Not saying there aren't downsides to my suggestion, just thinking we can take our chances if we finally get enough finishers at the right age for the right price so we aren't so desperate for goals EVERY night, we can hold the fort with Vtank plus until McIltrath + gets here. Plus if we make this kind of move to straighten out our serious problems, we might be able to have more flexibility about other moves (Gunnarrson?).

As to the marketing, etc., you raise a good point.
Except that (1) current Oil ownership supposedly has enough $$ that such extra is nice, but not essential; and (2) what's already made will sell out as collectibles, then Oilers will have basis to break out a new line of jerseys to their fans.

I think a large part of this is
does Edmonton want to go for it now and compete/develop ASAP?
Or do they want one more good draft?
Either way its about half the fan base, so who knows...

Maybe adding some draft picks?
They're definitely looking at another high end draft pick. Their best players aren't even legal to drink in the states. I like what they're building and there's just no way they're going to part ways with a number one overall selection. Trading away Hall would be worse than the Rangers trading away Lundqvist. It's PR suicide.

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10-10-2011, 07:45 PM
  #81
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I think we can all agree that debating the oilers trading hall is fruitless - it isn't gonna happen.

Speculating on it and debating it is futile

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10-10-2011, 07:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by N9Y4R View Post
No way MDZ brings back anything of great value alone. His value is minor, all he has proven since his draft year is that at this stage of his development he belongs in the AHL. If somehow we could get a player with value back for MDZ we should move him. Personally I just don't see the high-end talent. I see a player who granted is still young, but continues to make the same mistakes, his defense and decision making are horrible.

His skating is average and he does not show the ability to carry the puck out of his zone and into the offensive zone to set up the attack. His shot is below average with little one-timer ability. He has not shown any ability to run a PP even though his vision/passing is supposed to be his strength. I very rarely see him make a real eye opening pass even on the PP. Enough with the stretch passes, make a 10-20 ft pass in your own zone in tight that sends your F's out of the zone with speed, never happens. Staal, and Girardi are not PMD but they excell at this, and McDonagh, and Sauer show the ability to move the puck in tight in the D zone. Even Erixon in very limited time has shown me a much greater ability to do this. He looks like he could eclipse MDZ in the puck moving department this year.

IMO MDZ is never going to be the PMD that some here think he is/can be, I hope I'm wrong but I would move him asap if the Oilers are willing to give up a young forward in the MPS mold. I fear he will bring a Sanguinetti type of deal in a year or so. MDZ for a 2nd that is the direction he is heading.
Couldn't agree more with this analysis. And while his strength might have improved, he still gets manhandled or falls down. If him and Christensen together bring back a third rounder, then so be it. Part of being a good G.M. is knowing when to fold' em. Who was excited when they drafted Sanguinetti?

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Old
10-10-2011, 07:50 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
IF Hall were being moved it would take something serious.
I'd be willing to overpay in serious if the usual
Richards-Gaborik / Dubi-AA-Cally / Staal / Kreider / Erixon were off the table.

Could
Stepan, Girardi, Sauer McDonagh, Boyle, MDZ and Biron
get us
Hall AND Paajarvi and Kabibulin?

Maybe we throw in our 1st and 3rd and they throw in their 2nd and Tyler Pitlick...
May I ask who would play D for us if you did that deal?

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Old
10-10-2011, 07:52 PM
  #84
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May I ask who would play D for us if you did that deal?
Maloney is coming out of retirement

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10-10-2011, 08:00 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
I think we can all agree that debating the oilers trading hall is fruitless - it isn't gonna happen.

Speculating on it and debating it is futile
i agree

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Old
10-10-2011, 08:05 PM
  #86
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Where not going to move MDZ, and FFS EDM isnt moving Hall. Stop dreaming guys.

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10-10-2011, 10:06 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
May I ask who would play D for us if you did that deal?
We dont think that far here on HF. We check logic at the door.

In fact we just deal parts and assume guys like Kundratek, Valentenko, Bickel, Bell, and whoever else is in the minors, will be able to handle NHL minutes. All that matters is that we get the "sexy" name when the deal is done.

the best part is were trading our 3 best defenseman in the HF member's, whose name will not be mentioned, proposed deal and basically shut down the best line in the NHL on saturday (Perry-Getzlaf-Ryan). But hey why would we need them? As long as we get Hall and Pajaarvi the cup is ours, who needs defense? We'll beat teams 10-8 on a regular basis, right?!?!


Last edited by RGY: 10-10-2011 at 10:15 PM.
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10-10-2011, 11:20 PM
  #88
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We dont think that far here on HF. We check logic at the door.

In fact we just deal parts and assume guys like Kundratek, Valentenko, Bickel, Bell, and whoever else is in the minors, will be able to handle NHL minutes. All that matters is that we get the "sexy" name when the deal is done.

the best part is were trading our 3 best defenseman in the HF member's, whose name will not be mentioned, proposed deal and basically shut down the best line in the NHL on saturday (Perry-Getzlaf-Ryan). But hey why would we need them? As long as we get Hall and Pajaarvi the cup is ours, who needs defense? We'll beat teams 10-8 on a regular basis, right?!?!
Pretty much what I thought.

Hall-Richards-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Paajarvi-Wolski-Zuccarello
Prust-Christensen-Rupp

Staal-Eminger
Erixon-??
??-??

Lundqvist
Khabibulin

Where do I sign?

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Old
10-11-2011, 03:24 AM
  #89
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i would do MDZ Kreider 1st, 1st for Hall.
would also love MPS but is he a Torts kind of guy? Rather how is his defense because Torts ain't gonna give him the minutes he needs to develop into the player he can be if the kid doesn't play both ends of the ice. Eberle on the other hand has Torts written all over him. All good players though so can't really go too wrong acquiring either of them.

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10-11-2011, 05:00 AM
  #90
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i would do MDZ Kreider 1st, 1st for Hall.
would also love MPS but is he a Torts kind of guy? Rather how is his defense because Torts ain't gonna give him the minutes he needs to develop into the player he can be if the kid doesn't play both ends of the ice. Eberle on the other hand has Torts written all over him. All good players though so can't really go too wrong acquiring either of them.
Oi, Edmonton is NOT trading Hall. Like, literally, unless it were Crosby or Ovechkin, there is NOTHING that any team could offer to get Hall in return. Not that teams couldn't offer amazing value for him or that he's the 3rd best player in the league, but rather, the only thing keeping Oiler fans with the team right now (besides being hockey diehards) is the promise of a bright future...and Hall is the face, the trademark, and the biggest piece of that future.

Now, as for Eberle and MPS, I'm guessing you've never seen them play, right? MPS is one of the most defensively responsible wingers younger than 25 that I've ever seen. He regularly passes up offensive opportunities in order to be the first forward back. It's something the Oilers are trying to coach him to be better on-- they love the responsibility, but hate that he's passing up opportunities in order to do it. Eberle, on the other hand, is about average with other offensively gifted youngsters when it comes to defensive responsibility-- ie, he looks rather clueless. Decent on the PK though.

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10-11-2011, 05:11 AM
  #91
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Oilers and Rangers trade often. I see something there. However, given Edmonton's pathetic defenseman and sub standard grinders, I think it would take

Del Zotto, Kundratek and Bourque to get MPS. I'm the Rangers, I'd still do it. They need a legit winger on the Richards line. There is 0.00% chance the Oilers would trade Hall. Any talk of that is silly.

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10-11-2011, 06:23 AM
  #92
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MDZ, Bourque, Kundratek/Valentenko & 2nd rounder 2012 for MPS & 3rd rounder 2012

Maybe try to get a younger puck mover in Gunnarsson, Voynov... etc

Would Leafs do

Christ, one of Eminger/Bickel/Bell and Hagelin for Gunnarsson?

Or Kings:

Christ, Lindberg, Kundratek/Valentenko for Voynov?

Probably neither...

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10-11-2011, 06:59 AM
  #93
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Why some people are banging on MDZ so hard is beyond me...

He made one atrocious mistake... one. Otherwise, he has looked pretty steady. He is developing in his decision-making. He's not making those annoying low-percentage stretch passes or losing the puck in the slot like he was almost every game last season. I don't think enough people realize how much better he is. They simply get their opinions colored by one horrible error.

I would prefer that MDZ work on polishing his game some more with the Whale, but he hasn't been as bad as some seem to think, especially given the minutes he's getting.

MDZ would never garner in a trade what he is truly worth, so there's no point in even proposing anything. We would want to get value based on what his potential is, while the team trading for him would assess value based on what he is now, which is far from a finished product.

Not a single player in our system brings to the table what MDZ does. For that reason alone, we can't afford to move him. Anyone bringing up Parlett is out of their minds. Parlett is developing great for a UDFA, but the chances of him becoming anything more than a bottom-pairing puck-mover are small. MDZ has top-pairing potential. His offensive instincts are already better than any defenseman on our roster, and his defense is getting better, whether or not people are willing to admit it.

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10-11-2011, 09:54 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
A LW player I'd trade Del Zotto for - Loui Ericsson. I know its early in the season but Loui is struggling. He can play LW and we know hes good with brad. Also a good friend of Henrik's. We know that Joe N might like DZ as it was a rumored piece in a Richards deal. Things might have changed since acquiring Goligoski (although I'm pretty sure that happened a bit before the deadline).

Anyways, just spitballing. long way till Saturday still feels like offseason

Edit: as I type this, I find out he scored haha. Anyways I'd trade a lot to get him, not just MDZ
Don't see Dallas doing this, but keep an open mind and an open ear...

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10-11-2011, 10:01 AM
  #95
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We dont think that far here on HF. We check logic at the door.

In fact we just deal parts and assume guys like Kundratek, Valentenko, Bickel, Bell, and whoever else is in the minors, will be able to handle NHL minutes. All that matters is that we get the "sexy" name when the deal is done.

the best part is were trading our 3 best defenseman in the HF member's, whose name will not be mentioned, proposed deal and basically shut down the best line in the NHL on saturday (Perry-Getzlaf-Ryan). But hey why would we need them? As long as we get Hall and Pajaarvi the cup is ours, who needs defense? We'll beat teams 10-8 on a regular basis, right?!?!
Shouldn't come to that, especially with King Hank in net.


Obviously I gutted the D.
I think we can make do in the short term, while picking up inferior but adequate replacements by trade, eventually getting our D back up to this offense.

We must do something so we stop losing so many low scoring games to everybody.

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10-11-2011, 10:19 AM
  #96
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Shouldn't come to that, especially with King Hank in net.


Obviously I gutted the D.
Your right it would never come to that, because this is NEVER happening.

And if by some insane set of circumstances it did, Hank would publicly ask for a trade. This is laughable.

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10-11-2011, 10:47 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Shouldn't come to that, especially with King Hank in net.


Obviously I gutted the D.
I think we can make do in the short term, while picking up inferior but adequate replacements by trade, eventually getting our D back up to this offense.

We must do something so we stop losing so many low scoring games to everybody.
This organization has been building from the net out. You want to just throw that philosophy out the window?

Plus, Hank wouldn't want to stay with that ****** of a support cast.

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10-11-2011, 11:00 AM
  #98
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Pretty much what I thought.

Hall-Richards-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Paajarvi-Wolski-Zuccarello
Prust-Christensen-Rupp

Staal-Eminger
Erixon-??
??-??

Lundqvist
Khabibulin

Where do I sign?
My thinking is:
Hall-Richards-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Paajarvi-Bourque -Hagelin
Rupp - Lindberg - Prust
Fedotenko is our spare, which helps keep him fresh the rest of the year
Pitlick also in the equation at some point.

I'll be shocked if Bourque can get through a whole season, but if he does half a season, I'll be happy. We can then think about temporary promotion from within with Fedotenko full time or Yorgan gets a cup of coffee, possibly John Mitchell alternatively, or see the waiver wire/trade options. Worst case scenario is Christiansen 2.0


Your criticism as to D being thin is entirely valid, I'm simply saying its worth it. With this extra firepower holding down the fort until Kreider next year (replacing Bourque), we still finally get enough pressure in the other end to score some goals. The time of possession would be dramatically improved in our favor. That's less exhaustion for D playing in the other end not ours.

As to the D:
Staal-Erixon
Vtank-Parlett
Pashnin-Woywitka
Eminger

I am expecting we can get Pashnin returned, even if not that's still as to bottom of our defense.
after the top 4, plus presumably Pashnin, with Eminger as your 6th/7th, if Jeff Woywitka is not up to snuff, then choose from

Bickel
Ivan Baranka
lkka Heikkinen
Lee Baldwin
Jyri Niemi
each of whom has minuses but enough ability to just make it, adding minimum minutes, especially if it is a stay at home type of D which doesn't require as much additional skating as a playmaking D.

Wolski/Zuccarello/Christensen are on the block and might get help at D, probably if bundled with a prospect or a pick.
Michael St. Croix , Andreas Thuresson, are the kinds of prospects who could now be sacrificed with modest overpayment to get us that D.

I fully expect we can get Gunarrsson from Maple Leafs.
With the above F group, who cares if we have to give all 5 of Wolski, Zuccarello, Christensen, St. Croix, and Thuresson for him?

and could McIlrath contribute at season's end?
If yes we only need even less stopgap from the 5 prospects/suspects named

G
Lundqvist

If Chad Johnson can get us that D, or be even part payment on that D, we have an option on Khabibulin who was to accommodate Oilers.

I see Tablot/next in line, with Stacjer developing every day, possibly competing for the backup next year.

Would you at least agree that:
1. Winning by any margin beats losing too many close games, as we clearly are at present and will do without some boost, in partly because we play a defensive based system that only encourages pinching, so all offensive help is at a premium.

2. Obtaining second and third pair Ds are easier than obtaining young stud sniper Ws in their early 20s.


Last edited by bernmeister: 10-11-2011 at 11:19 AM. Reason: omission inserted
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10-11-2011, 11:07 AM
  #99
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Your right it would never come to that, because this is NEVER happening.

And if by some insane set of circumstances it did, Hank would publicly ask for a trade. This is laughable.
Disagree.
He might complain he'd have LESS shots to stop,
Yes. Vtank doing his impression of Girardi on shotblocking is the amateur replacing the champion. And we are missing substantial D, prior to my suggestions to replace. but you must admit with this new sustained offense, 3 potent lines and a checking line that is also dangerous enough to surprise, the time of possession goes up for us, and shots that need be blocked go down.

Yes, when the other side gets in they could be more deadly, but they will be in our end a whole lot less. It is a valid counterposition, though I understand how the Dan Girardi mancrush society would rather shoot it down, and waste Hank's prime with the status quo.

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10-11-2011, 11:17 AM
  #100
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This organization has been building from the net out. You want to just throw that philosophy out the window?

Plus, Hank wouldn't want to stay with that ****** of a support cast.
On a selective basis, if it obtains the results recommended, yes.

I kept Hank. This was not Lundqvist + Staal + Anisimov for Stamkos plus another 2 or 3 moves that gutted us.

I kept Staal and Erixon.
The core of the D has been maintained, we'll get enough out of V-tank, Parlett and the replacements..

I paid a high price, but I got us Hall and Paajarvi at minimum, also Tyler Pitlick.

That is really what this boils down to, a judgment call, of if dramatically improving our Fs with a custom addition of 2 All Star calibre LWs is worth the substantial but lesser price in Ds.

I say it is.

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