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[THE INSTIGATOR] Open letter to Geoff Molson

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Old
10-09-2011, 02:00 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
But But But... it's always been part of the game! The most powerful argument EVAR!!!!
Wow, what a very informative post, seems to be the theme around here. I agree with cherry, I don't agree with the name calling and insults he threw, but about the game itself he is 100% right.

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10-09-2011, 04:00 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
It's a matter of proportion. How many hockey fighters were there in the NHL ? No idea, but let's assume a thousand. And let's assume the 3 were the only ones ever happening. That's already a lot more than in the other groups that you cited.

In fact the professions that have the highest suicide rates are usually the ones related to heath care - medical doctors, dentists (reports are controversial) etc. Probably stress related.

Suicide research deals with this kind of stuff. Statistics say that group X has a higher incidence. You build a theoretical model on why it could happen (Why do smokers suicide more than non smokers ? Why is suicide higher in Quebec than in the rest of Canada? and so on) There is usually no reliable scientific (and ethical) method to test the model, to experiment or do longitudinal studies. So, if the model is convincing enough, people will take it and use it for prevention purposes. Sometimes suicide decreases - and you can't really say if it's because of what was done or...just happened.

The theoretical model on why hockey fighters might be at higher risk of suicide is very convincing right now. Convincing enough to justify preventive measures. Your position is basically "you can't prove it so it's not true"

Anyway - you are not really discussing with me here - your whole post was straw man stuff.

John Ferguson -- died at age 68.
Dave Semenko -- he is now 54 years old.
Dave Schultz -- he is now 61 years old.
Dave Brown -- he is now 48 years old.
Marty McSorley -- he is now 48 years old.
Stu Grimson -- he is now 46 years old.
Joey Kocur -- he is now 46 years old.
Tiger Williams -- he is now 57 years old.
Tony Twist -- he is now 43 years old.
Tie Domi -- he is now 41 years old.
Chris Simon -- he is now 39 years old.
Clark Gillies -- he is now 57 years old.

You want me to continue? The guys I listed above were some of the toughest fighters in the League with multiple fights. Some played without helmets or even used the flimsy non-padded helmets.

They are going on with their lives (RIP John Ferguson).

Suicide is an individual decision made by an individual person for reasons that we do not know nor understand. Blaming it on hockey fights is nothing more than forwarding an agenda.

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10-09-2011, 10:20 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
John Ferguson -- died at age 68.
Dave Semenko -- he is now 54 years old.
Dave Schultz -- he is now 61 years old.
Dave Brown -- he is now 48 years old.
Marty McSorley -- he is now 48 years old.
Stu Grimson -- he is now 46 years old.
Joey Kocur -- he is now 46 years old.
Tiger Williams -- he is now 57 years old.
Tony Twist -- he is now 43 years old.
Tie Domi -- he is now 41 years old.
Chris Simon -- he is now 39 years old.
Clark Gillies -- he is now 57 years old.

You want me to continue? The guys I listed above were some of the toughest fighters in the League with multiple fights. Some played without helmets or even used the flimsy non-padded helmets.

They are going on with their lives (RIP John Ferguson).

Suicide is an individual decision made by an individual person for reasons that we do not know nor understand. Blaming it on hockey fights is nothing more than forwarding an agenda.
You obviously do not want to discuss this rationally.

First you claimed that I said that only hockey fighters do drugs and alcohol.

Now you claim that I said that all hockey fighters commit suicide.

That's strawman rethoric. Platon described it 25 centuries ago.

And, of course, it's because I am forwarding an agenda. My agenda is obviously to deprive you (and those like you) of your TV entertainment. Just to annoy you... since I can't see any other possible gain for me.

Anyway - I will answer. It's the Internet after all and who knows, someone might actually read it.

Let's assume that for the last 10 years every NHL team had 2 goons. And that the average NHL career of a goon is 4 years. That makes a total of approximately 150 goons in the last 10 years. Out of these 150 at least 3 committed suicide that's a 2% incidence over 10 years. That's huge.

It's hard to compare with the general population since usually stats are given in cases per 100000/per year. In the young adult male north american I would assume about 20/100000. That means about 200/100000 in 10 years or 0.2% = still 10 times less than for hockey fighters. And that's assuming none of the other 147 goons did it.

This exercise has no scientific value btw - too few cases and not well distributed. No controlling for other stuff, etc. However - it says it's a problem.

There is also the modeling, or copycat effect (google Werther effect) since these three were clustered and there is public attitude against fights and fighters. The names you gave there were heroes, defending their teammates. Nowadays they are merely paid entertainers, punching each other in the face to raise TV ratings. So I would say that if I were the doctor seeing an NHL goon in my office I would definitely ask him if he has considered suicide. The risk is high.

There is one part that annoyed me the most in your post:

Suicide is an individual decision made by an individual person for reasons that we do not know nor understand.

That's stuff that I hear too often. "It was his decision", "who knows what his reasons were ?"

We do understand it. I spoke to people who attempted suicide and survived because of a fortunate accident. I read descriptions done by others. It's pretty simple and way too common.

The reasons for suicide are pain, despair and lack of help. Often mixed with some sort of numbing by drugs or alcohol. People who commit suicide do not rationally decide they want to die. They are in heavy pain, they suffer for one reason or another and they want this pain to end. Yet they see no way out, no hope. And they have noone to help or listen (or they don't know how/are ashamed to ask).

And even in the darkest suicidal crisis, people are ambivalent. The part of them that wants to live is usually the stronger one. No one is 100% decided to die. It's just that the "dark side" only needs to be stronger for a minute or two. And even then, a minor event, like a phone call or a picture that reminds you a good memory, can make you snap out of your suicidal plan.

I feel bad talking abut suicide on a Hockey forum. I'll stop posting in this thread. If anyone reads this and considers suicide please talk about it with someone, family, friend or professional. It's usually all it takes to get to life again. Pain diminishes and ends in time. And there is always hope - you just don't see it now.

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Old
10-09-2011, 11:41 PM
  #279
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I am done with this thread as well.

You said.....
Quote:
The theoretical model on why hockey fighters might be at higher risk of suicide is very convincing right now. Convincing enough to justify preventive measures.
I simply pointed out to you hockey fighters/goons who are living and one who passed away at age 68. YOU inserted the word ALL into the discussion, not I.

And with regard to ONLY, I simply said it was disingenuous when you posted this....
Quote:
Hockey fighters use drugs (as confirmed by Morissette and others) and alcohol.
Have a good evening and thank you sincerely for your work and help with people in suicidal crises.

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Old
10-09-2011, 11:47 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Wow, what a very informative post, seems to be the theme around here. I agree with cherry, I don't agree with the name calling and insults he threw, but about the game itself he is 100% right.
You agree that Shanahan's ''strictness'' will remove hitting from the game?????????

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10-10-2011, 08:21 AM
  #281
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Grapes loves Drapes...~nuff said~

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10-10-2011, 08:30 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by merano View Post
Grapes loves Drapes...~nuff said~
the guy was wearing a checkered table cloth last night...talk about taking one too many to the head...

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Old
10-10-2011, 03:36 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
if you love fighting on ice so much, there's a league for you: the LNAH
That's an easy out. If you love non-fighting hockey, watch international hockey. What? If it goes one way, it must also go the other way, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
there's a pretty big difference between the two.

Players train to fight in MMA and boxing. They train day in and day out and generally have been doing it for years.

Hockey fighters are hockey players that are big and not good enough to have a role on the team without having to fight. i'd bet that most enforcers don't even enjoy fighting but do it because it's the only way they get to play in the NHL.

They fight on skates, and falling and hitting their head on the ice is a very big risk.

I wouldn't call myself anti-fighting, but I do believe that being an enforcer can take a toll on them.
Again, the purpose it NON to compare the two sports, but only to point out how hypocritical it is to use player safety as an excuse to try to remove it from the game, and or to link fighting to the recent deaths.

Also, hockey players do practice their fighting skills.

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10-10-2011, 04:15 PM
  #284
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Again, the purpose it NON to compare the two sports, but only to point out how hypocritical it is to use player safety as an excuse to try to remove it from the game, and or to link fighting to the recent deaths.

Also, hockey players do practice their fighting skills.
There is no hypocrisy between wanting figting removed, player safety and MMA.
It is not the same sport, at all. The purpose of fighting has disappeared. That is why some are suggesting its rmoval migth be best. Comparing that to MMA is retarded..

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10-10-2011, 05:34 PM
  #285
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When someone brings change, there are always people living in the past who try to resist said change.

And Cherry is an idiot for lashing out on former "tough guys" Nilan and company. His argument being that these guys made a living out of fighting so they shouldn't now speak against it. Well, idiot, maybe these guys know what they are talking about because they lived it. Maybe they know the side-effects and any other aspects of it better than anybody else?!

Oh and by the way, Cherry makes a lot of dough with his infamous DVDs. It's certaintly in his best interest that the game is not too clean.


Last edited by Poulet Kostopoulos: 10-10-2011 at 05:40 PM.
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10-10-2011, 06:25 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There is no hypocrisy between wanting figting removed, player safety and MMA.
It is not the same sport, at all. The purpose of fighting has disappeared. That is why some are suggesting its rmoval migth be best. Comparing that to MMA is retarded..
You were mentioning a few days ago how it was difficult to have decent conversations on HFBoards due to exactly what you're doing here. Why is it so hard to discuss something and remain respectful of others' opinions, without lowering ourselves to qualifying other people's opinion and ideas of "retarded"? In your last few posts in this topic, you're just as guilty as the ones your accusing.

Personally, I disagree with your assumption that the purpose of fighting has disappeared. Who's right? Let me guess...

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10-10-2011, 09:02 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
You were mentioning a few days ago how it was difficult to have decent conversations on HFBoards due to exactly what you're doing here. Why is it so hard to discuss something and remain respectful of others' opinions, without lowering ourselves to qualifying other people's opinion and ideas of "retarded"? In your last few posts in this topic, you're just as guilty as the ones your accusing.

Personally, I disagree with your assumption that the purpose of fighting has disappeared. Who's right? Let me guess...
I have no problem discussing whether or not fighting still has a purpose. Whatever your opinion is, I will respect it.
But sometimes, people will say incredibly stupid things, and there's nothing wrong in calling that out. If I use a comparison that is simply horrible, and people show me just how retarded it is, then I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

Comparing hockey with MMA is retarded, if you take offense to that, then really, I don't know what to say...I am sorry, I don't try to offend anybody here.
Note however that I'm not calling you retarded, just the comparison, which it is, for so many reasons.

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10-10-2011, 09:29 PM
  #288
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See the all-purpose toughness thread....I just wish a Cherry thread would die rapidly....preferable to use the toughness thread.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 10-10-2011 at 09:53 PM.
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10-10-2011, 09:54 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
For me, you are either for fighting, or either against it. If one of the first purpose of fighting is to keep everybody humble and to remove cheap shots from happening....why the heck would you have an instigator rule? Isn't it what restrained the great Laraque for trying to make the Bruins and other humbled?

So, most people who are FOR fighting do almost agree that sideshow fightings aren't needed anymore but you can't remove the non-staged ones.....Yet, the sideshow fightings are amongst the only ones you will not be able to apply the instigator rules while the non-staged ones "in the heat of the moment", well it's possible that one guy might not want it as much.

I don't get the Cherry apologists. The guy lived in another era. An era who had room for guys like Tony Twist, Peter Worrell etc...In an era where your 11th and 12th guys could have been fighters in order to entertain people instead of shootout or special teams heroes like we're having now. And now that we learned more and more about the side effects of head shots, fighting and all, we'd need to be stuck in an era where you didn't have those infos?

It's a question of changing the culture. If people can't notice, hockey is ALWAYS making some changes to the game affecting the culture of it. Goalie can't play the puck, end of red line, benches side by side instead of one facing the other, end of tied games, big slow down on the obstruction etc. etc. freakin etc....This game changes every single year and for a long time now if you base yourself on the examples I just gave. And often, it's just as much as CULTURAL as fighting.

Hey, I guess you will never be able to remove fighting from the sport, it happens once in a while in football, in baseball, in ping-pong. Just that when it happens, instead of 5 minutes, it's 1 game suspension. Maybe more if it's a recidivist. And one day, there won't be any.

I used to not mind fighting that much. And not so long ago for that matter. But 1 thing clearly made my decision much easier. I CANNOT hear anymore the famous "He hits hard.....or he talks a lot....he'll have to answer the call one day". NO. HE DOESN'T HAVE TO. In Football, they talk way more. And they hit as well. And they don't have to answer anything. The guy hits you, take it as a man, take the number, and hits it just as hard but legally. The guy talks, talk back. But fighting on the ice is a TOTAL different ball game. And you are allowed to not be good at it. But it should not refrained you from hitting, from playing hard and even from talking. If players aren't men enough to be used to be hit or to be talked to, well they should go back to their momma and cry about it. For me, having to drop it 'cause you hurt somebody's feelings? That's so childish and stupid.
The problem is the people that support Cherry's views still think fighting prevents things from happening. Whatever happens to the Habs, it wouldn't be as bad if we had an enforcer. Whatever happens to other teams that have enforcers, it would be much worse if they didn't have one (or more). They have no reason to believe that, no stats to prove it, and really, considering the growing number of dirty plays and injuries, they don't have much going for their side of the argument.
They do not want to see fighting go because they simply enjoy it. That's all. But they won't admit that, they will try to find arguments for it. Obviously, they don't have much to go on, which is why you will read some really unreal, far fetched arguments like comparing hockey to mma.

I've said it before, personally, I don't care whether fighting is in the game or not. I think that in today's game, it has no more purpose, so remove it and nothing will change. Remove the instigator rule, and fighting would make a lot more sense again.
Right now however, there is no purpose.

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Old
10-10-2011, 10:27 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I have no problem discussing whether or not fighting still has a purpose. Whatever your opinion is, I will respect it.
But sometimes, people will say incredibly stupid things, and there's nothing wrong in calling that out. If I use a comparison that is simply horrible, and people show me just how retarded it is, then I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

Comparing hockey with MMA is retarded, if you take offense to that, then really, I don't know what to say...I am sorry, I don't try to offend anybody here.
Note however that I'm not calling you retarded, just the comparison, which it is, for so many reasons.
I find that ignoring that the comparison is NOT between MMA and NHL hockey is moronic and retarded. The reason why it was brought up is simply to show the two weights, two measures when it comes to "protecting the athletes". It is trying to sway the topic (on purpose or not) towards something that's a non-issue. Here, I guess we're even...

EDIT: For the record, I don't really find it moronic and/or retarded. I'm saying that only to prove a point. I do however find unfortunate that some people don't respect others' opinions a bit more in their debate and try to put them (or their opinion) down with cyber-bullying, which by the way doesn't work on me. I find it quite comical actually.

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10-11-2011, 01:52 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's an easy out. If you love non-fighting hockey, watch international hockey. What? If it goes one way, it must also go the other way, right?
don't put words in my mouth. i like fighting, i just hate mindless goons; or posters that feel that one guy on the fourth line would be able to do anything about protecting anybody.

the latter the most actually

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10-11-2011, 01:54 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
[...]I do however find unfortunate that some people don't respect others' opinions a bit more in their debate and try to put them (or their opinion) down with cyber-bullying, which by the way doesn't work on me.[...]
cyber-bullying???

why don't you just hire an enforcer about it?

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10-11-2011, 08:05 AM
  #293
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Don Cherry is irrelevant.

People that listen and think his opinions are based on sound judgement, critical thinking and recent experience in pro hockey deserve to have him as their hockey and fashion guru.

The only saving grace he still has is that he supports the Canadian Armed Forces.

It is unfortunate that Nilan, Thompson and Grimson were publicly insulted and slandered, but you have to consider the source.

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10-11-2011, 11:03 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I find that ignoring that the comparison is NOT between MMA and NHL hockey is moronic and retarded. The reason why it was brought up is simply to show the two weights, two measures when it comes to "protecting the athletes". It is trying to sway the topic (on purpose or not) towards something that's a non-issue. Here, I guess we're even...

EDIT: For the record, I don't really find it moronic and/or retarded. I'm saying that only to prove a point. I do however find unfortunate that some people don't respect others' opinions a bit more in their debate and try to put them (or their opinion) down with cyber-bullying, which by the way doesn't work on me. I find it quite comical actually.
But I've already explained how ''player'' safety is a matter in MMA even though the purpose of the sport is to physically beat your opponent. They still try to ensure as much safety as possible, and adopt rules that prevents worse scenarios.
The purpose in hockey is to score goals, not fight.

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10-11-2011, 11:59 AM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But I've already explained how ''player'' safety is a matter in MMA even though the purpose of the sport is to physically beat your opponent. They still try to ensure as much safety as possible, and adopt rules that prevents worse scenarios.
The purpose in hockey is to score goals, not fight.
The sole purpose of hockey is to entertain people. Once you accept that as fact then fighting, officiating, the rulebook, etc. will all make sense.

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10-11-2011, 12:13 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
Fighting brings energy to a game lacking it.

Fighting is not a sign of immaturity, it's a unique attribute where 2 men can settle their differences

Fighting (physically) someone because you think you are right is a sign of immaturity. Or, more likely, of not living in your time.
People used to fight a lot a few centuries ago. The social contract forbids it now.
It's like thinking that the best way to prevent crime is to keep a loaded gun in your house and shoot the thieves. Wait ... some people actually think that.
Just picked this one...

In a hockey game you don't have time to sit down and talk it out and emotions are running high, as is the tension. A little tussle provides the outlet for frustration that your average athlete would not be able to cope with without an outlet.

And don't say "football doesn't have fighting"... in football you you have ample time on the sidelines to cool down, and youre not holding a stick in your hand and flying around the field at 30-40mph.

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10-11-2011, 12:56 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The sole purpose of hockey is to entertain people. Once you accept that as fact then fighting, officiating, the rulebook, etc. will all make sense.
That is exactly the point of many. Fighting is only serving an entertainment aspect. It has close to no relevance to the actual game anymore.

The object of the game of hockey is to put a puck in the opponent's net the most, and so, win the game, not fight or entertain people.

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10-11-2011, 01:02 PM
  #298
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Fighting in hockey is the equivalent of giving MMA fighters sticks and puck and asking them to score in a net.

The point is that fighting is the sole purpose of MMA.

Scoring goals in a particular way is the purpose of hockey. You can take fighting out of hockey and it's still hockey. If you take fighting out MMA, well then you no longer have a sport.

That is why the argument is stupid to say "might as well take fighting out MMA". The comparison is ridiculously stupid and screams "I don't have an argument for fighting other than I like it, so here is a bunch of irrational statements to prove my point".


Last edited by Andy: 10-11-2011 at 01:23 PM.
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10-11-2011, 01:14 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Fighting in hockey is the equivalent of giving MMA fighters sticks and puck and asking them to score in a net.

The point is that fighting is the sole purpose of MMA.
Scoring goals in a particular way is the purpose of hockey. You can take fighting out of hockey and it's still hockey. If you take fighting out MMA, well then you no longer have a sport. That is why the argument is stupid to say "might as well take fighting out MMA". The comparison is ridiculously stupid and screams "I don't have an argument for fighting other than I like it, so here is a bunch of irrational statements to prove my point".
bravo, and I am quite thrilled that some people still have the will to counterargument those neanderthal fight lovers

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10-11-2011, 01:17 PM
  #300
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I watched those Cherry videos on CBC... I still don't get why this guy has fans. He makes very little sense and is retrograde. Telling it like it is? More like telling it like he sees it, with his old black and white glasses. "It was so much better back then *grumble*".

The worse part is when he shows that video of Chara/Pacioretty. Did I miss something? Was that old footage from a previous show? Why bring this up now? Why the **** would he say moronic things like "SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUSH A 6'9 DEFENSEMAN?" What the hell? Do you think it was premeditated, Cherry? Because if it's what you really think, what you should be getting upset about is the reaction to a PUSH. Jesus... How this guy still has such an important platform to air his ******** is unbelievable.

Also... The whole "puke" thing... Great. Way to use the time he's given to launch personal attacks. I wish I had a show between periods in which I could take shots at the people I disagree with!

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