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Do we give Holmgren enough credit?

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Old
10-11-2011, 03:29 PM
  #151
CS
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Homer's dealings that season forced us to move Upshall (or someone else), and still we had to dress players signed to pto contracts in two games. I'm sorry, but if you want to defend Holmgren, and just to make this perfectly clear - I don't see any reason to fire him or anything like that -, but that trade is not something that every GM SHOULD'VE AND WOULD'VE DONE. Given that specific situation, then yes, I'd say most would've. The point is that if Homer had acted smarter earlier on in the season that specific situation wouldn't have occured.

Upshall didn't really fit in with the team moving forward, that I agree with. What you'd expect then is to see him moved for picks/prospects that equals his value somehow, or a player that's paid less and then picks/prospects to make up the value. Not us having to tack on a 2nd rounder just so some team can help us out of cap hell.

Again, it's not as if it's a mistake that Homer deserves to be fired for, but let's not act as if it's something that didn't really matter either.
The point is that the move had to be made. Holmgren certainly screwed himself by timing it wrong and getting god awful value, but it was an obvious move that was going to be made sooner rather than later when it was actually made.

Believe it or not, and people may or may not realize this, but Upshall receiving terrible value was because Holmgren had backed himself into a corner.

Why was Holmgren backed into a corner?

Well it was because he had traded for Carle, which is a move he had to make because he had traded a 1st for Eminger.

Basically, the vast majority of Holmgren's mistakes are after effects of the biggest and only really vital mistake he's ever made as a GM: Trading a 1st round pick for Steve Eminger.

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10-11-2011, 03:34 PM
  #152
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nvm, addressed

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10-11-2011, 03:35 PM
  #153
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Let's also not forget that Scottie Upshall is not really all that great. Yes, the trade was lopsided in Phoenix's favor, it's not like they would have gotten much more for him anyway. He has never even scored 35 points in a season in his career.

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10-11-2011, 03:38 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Only to stupid people. There's never going to be a point in the year where we're going to know everything about this team because of big roles that rookies are going to have, though rookies are fairly predictable. There definitely will be trends that we'll start to see come Thanksgiving, and that may be indicative of a hole that Holmgren addressed or didn't address, but it's dumb to jump to any conclusions after two games, and that includes the notion that a guy like Hartnell is suddenly expendable.
I know we cant jump to conclusions after two games. I like how our team has looked, but let's talk in 18. It just seems like people care more about having Mike Richards on this team than having a goalie we have wanted for so long, bad contract or not. The credit always goes to the good guy, and whenever something bad happens it gets dished out to our scapegoat. It amazed me how people could possibly cheer for Bobrovsky past the all star break.

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10-11-2011, 03:39 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The point is that the move had to be made. Holmgren certainly screwed himself by timing it wrong and getting god awful value, but it was an obvious move that was going to be made sooner rather than later when it was actually made.

Believe it or not, and people may or may not realize this, but Upshall receiving terrible value was because Holmgren had backed himself into a corner.

Why was Holmgren backed into a corner?

Well it was because he had traded for Carle, which is a move he had to make because he had traded a 1st for Eminger.

Basically, the vast majority of Holmgren's mistakes are after effects of the biggest and only really vital mistake he's ever made as a GM: Trading a 1st round pick for Steve Eminger.
It was also the panic acquisition of Alberts, when we had some injuries on d early on in the season. I don't dispute that the move was more or less necessary at the time, those of us that had/have a problem with the move are concerned with the way we were put into that position.

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10-11-2011, 03:41 PM
  #156
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There are plenty of good and bad when stacking up the Homer moves over the past 6 six years. The one that sticks out to me, above all else is:

2006-2007: 56 points, last in NHL (Homer is hired to finish season)
2007-2008: 95 points, Lost in Conference finals
2008-2009: 99 points, Lost first round to eventual Cup winner
2009-2010: 88 points, SCF runner up
2010-2011: 106 points, Lost in second round to eventual Cup Winner

4 straight playoff appearances, 1 SCF, lost to Stanley Cup Winner last three years in a row. Current team looks very good, has a solid veteran team with MANY young players that make it seem like this team is a Cup Contender again and will be for the next 5 years at least. So - regardless of the breakdown of the good and bad moves, in the end - the teams he has built have always been considered contenders to start the year and have had success in the regular season and playoffs.

Where it counts: Do I think we will win a Stanley Cup with Homer as General Manager of the Philadelphia Flyers? Yes.

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10-11-2011, 03:48 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
There are plenty of good and bad when stacking up the Homer moves over the past 6 six years. The one that sticks out to me, above all else is:

2006-2007: 56 points, last in NHL (Homer is hired to finish season)
2007-2008: 95 points, Lost in Conference finals
2008-2009: 99 points, Lost first round to eventual Cup winner
2009-2010: 88 points, SCF runner up
2010-2011: 106 points, Lost in second round to eventual Cup Winner

4 straight playoff appearances, 1 SCF, lost to Stanley Cup Winner last three years in a row. Current team looks very good, has a solid veteran team with MANY young players that make it seem like this team is a Cup Contender again and will be for the next 5 years at least. So - regardless of the breakdown of the good and bad moves, in the end - the teams he has built have always been considered contenders to start the year and have had success in the regular season and playoffs.

Where it counts: Do I think we will win a Stanley Cup with Homer as General Manager of the Philadelphia Flyers? Yes.
This is what I have been saying. Results are what matters and he has delivered as well if not better than the other GMs in the league. People give to much weight to the what ifs and could have beens and base their opinions on Homer on pure speculation as to what could have happened.

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10-11-2011, 04:18 PM
  #158
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Just the fact that he took over and took a team from last place to the ECF is astonishing and he should be highly regarded just based upon that, regardless of all the other success this team has had.

Most teams that have that bad of a year take years to recover and restock talent, and while I know we had a few young pieces in place (carter, richards) it was far more than that, and we never had to go through years of rebuilding. The fact that makes this even more outstanding is that our lottery pick didnt even contribute for a couple years (JVR) after he was drafted, while teams like the blackhawks got an instant boost from patty kane.

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10-11-2011, 05:31 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The point is that the move had to be made. Holmgren certainly screwed himself by timing it wrong and getting god awful value, but it was an obvious move that was going to be made sooner rather than later when it was actually made.

Believe it or not, and people may or may not realize this, but Upshall receiving terrible value was because Holmgren had backed himself into a corner.

Why was Holmgren backed into a corner?

Well it was because he had traded for Carle, which is a move he had to make because he had traded a 1st for Eminger.

Basically, the vast majority of Holmgren's mistakes are after effects of the biggest and only really vital mistake he's ever made as a GM: Trading a 1st round pick for Steve Eminger.
I agree with most of your post here and your previous post. And I agree that trading a 1st for Eminger was a mistake. I don't agree that trading for Carle was a move he had to make. He made that move because it was a good deal and it made the team better. Not because he had to make it.

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10-11-2011, 06:49 PM
  #160
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He's done a terrible job! Look at this roster! We've got nothing! No goalies, no defence, no leaders, no goals and look how old our front lines are! We've got nothing in the locker in terms of prospects and we're writhing right at the bottom of the Eastern Conference having missed the play-offs for the past 4 years.

Oh, wait. We haven't. None of that's true. Holmgren must be actually be....doing...a...good...job?

---

I genuinely can't understand the hate he gets. Sure, he's not perfect. He's made a few bad moves in his time but these are heavily outweighed by the good. I've lost count of the amount of 'awful' moves he's made that have actually turned out to be pretty damn good. Danny B being one.

He'll do one great move and one moderate poor one and people seem to think they cancel each other out. Well, who wants Burke?

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10-11-2011, 11:05 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent
It was also a stroke of genius for Holmgren to use that time machine to sign Gretzky out of the WHA and transport his 18-year-old self to today. And I can't say enough about signing Grendel from Norse mythology to be our enforcer.

This alternate-universe thread is brought to you by the makers of Soylent Green.
I think you missed the point completely.
It seems I'm not alone.

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10-12-2011, 01:43 AM
  #162
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He's done a terrible job! Look at this roster! We've got nothing! No goalies, no defence, no leaders, no goals and look how old our front lines are! We've got nothing in the locker in terms of prospects and we're writhing right at the bottom of the Eastern Conference having missed the play-offs for the past 4 years.

Oh, wait. We haven't. None of that's true. Holmgren must be actually be....doing...a...good...job?

---

I genuinely can't understand the hate he gets. Sure, he's not perfect. He's made a few bad moves in his time but these are heavily outweighed by the good. I've lost count of the amount of 'awful' moves he's made that have actually turned out to be pretty damn good. Danny B being one.

He'll do one great move and one moderate poor one and people seem to think they cancel each other out. Well, who wants Burke?
Strapping a contending team with Michael F. Leighton cancelled out pretty much all the other good he did... and that is just one example.

Pretty much every single year Holmgren has created rosters that have notable flaws if your goal is, ya know, actually winning the Stanley Cup. One year he creates a roster with an absolutely atrocious defense. Another year he creates a roster without a goalie. Then another year he creates a team that will be counting heavily on rookies to play extremely important roles for what it takes to actually win come playoff time... that whole third line, defense, etc. position.

It is entirely possible that the Flyers will "win" both the Richards and Carter trade, but they almost surely will not win them this year. That's not necessarily the end of the world, but when the heart of your "contending" capable D is building a retirement home... the here and now is mildly important.

Sure, he may go and nab Weber this coming summer or something... but this year will have happened.

All of this without getting into how he has handcuffed himself with the salary cap with a regularity that is mind boggling -- and now we have the joys of the contract limit to worry about. Some of us were praying he would get rid of Zherdev last year purely to save cap space for this year... did he? Nope. If he had, that would have given them just a bit more wiggle room this year -- and they could use it.

The problem with Holmgren, and the problem with Holmgren defenders, is that the analysis is shallow. Yeah, they've won some games... but last year was the first time they opened on home ice for the playoffs (pretty much necessary prerequisite if you're going to win the Cup) under Holmgren, and they did so with a goalie situation that was a *ing circus. Over the last few years Holmgren has gutted the farm system... which he "fixed" by gutting the team of forwards in their prime years on cap friendly contracts.

To this point he's displayed a serial ability to construct teams that are good, but not good enough... and not good enough for reasons that you can pinpoint before the season ever starts. It was no surprise that goal was a problem last year... just as it wasn't in the end the year before (not to mention that his cap management was a problem on top of that -- yeah Randy Jones!). The year that he traded for Carle the defense going into that season was so godawful that I -- one of Stevens' biggest critics -- gave him a pass because there was no way you could really compete with the squad he had to work with on the blue line. Of course, all of that experience would eventually culminate in him getting a raging hard on for acquiring defensive depth. That's another trait that is quite noticeable with Holmgren... blind spots and overreactions. He's like a driver swerving back and forth across the highway avoiding the wall on either side the moment he notices its getting close.

But, hey, at least we got a goalie... playing behind a team that can't win faceoffs, and our "best defensive forward" is a rookie that will, almost surely, hit the wall well before the playoffs... as rookies tend to do. Oh, and zero cap space and too many contracts. So it isn't like this team is going to be in a position to improve itself during the season.

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10-12-2011, 01:53 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Just the fact that he took over and took a team from last place to the ECF is astonishing and he should be highly regarded just based upon that, regardless of all the other success this team has had.

Most teams that have that bad of a year take years to recover and restock talent, and while I know we had a few young pieces in place (carter, richards) it was far more than that, and we never had to go through years of rebuilding. The fact that makes this even more outstanding is that our lottery pick didnt even contribute for a couple years (JVR) after he was drafted, while teams like the blackhawks got an instant boost from patty kane.
A few pieces?

Key players already on the roster. They already had Richards, Carter, and Umberger... and Richards emergence was the primary reason that team exploded. Gagne wasn't too bad either, and he also had Knuble and Kapanen in house. Pitkanen was in place, and he was the trade asset that brought in Smith and Lupul, who were also key components to the turn around.

He also had the expiring contract that was Peter Forsberg to work with.

The one real stroke of pure genius was hoodwinking Atlanta in Coburn. Trading for Biron was a nice move as well.

Then he went into the summer with an absolute boat load of money and went after the marquee defensive UFA in Timonen, and a power forward in Hartnell that was much coveted. You can quibble about Hartnell, but Timonen was a must friggin sign given our roster ... and the impending departure of Pitkanen.

So, yeah, they didn't have to go through years of rebuilding because the primary reason the team was so bad when Holmgren took over is that their real problem was that key players that they were counting on were too young and weren't ready for their roles (namely, Carter and Richards)... which gets to his final acquisition that summer, Briere... because while Forsberg was down, no one picked up the slack and we needed a scoring center.

Already here: Gagne, Richards, Carter, Umberger, Knuble, and Kapanen (some good players)
Key Acquisitions: Lupul, Upshall, Briere, Timonen, Hartnell, Coburn, and the much forgotten Biron

So, yeah, there wasn't a long rebuild because Richards, Carter, and Umberger all were improving players that got better and could fill bigger roles, and some good players were parachuted in from elsewhere due to the cap space the Flyers had to play with that offseason.

Most terrible teams do not have a Forsberg to ship off... most terrible teams do not have one of a Richards/Carter sitting there, let alone two of 'em. With nice developing guys like Umberger on top of that... with some key veterans in Gagne, Knuble, and Kapanen.

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10-12-2011, 02:40 AM
  #164
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This is what I have been saying. Results are what matters and he has delivered as well if not better than the other GMs in the league. People give to much weight to the what ifs and could have beens and base their opinions on Homer on pure speculation as to what could have happened.
Agreed. His job is to ice winning teams. He does it. Does he make mistakes and force his own hand sometimes? Yes he does. But EVERY GM makes mistakes, how many GMs have taken a last place team and made them into a playoff team 4 straight years appearing in the Conference Finals once and the Stanley Cup Finals once? That's what matters.

It's the balance of good moves and bad moves and the record they result in.

The sole criticism I really have is that sometimes it appears he makes mistakes based on a lack of knowledge of the CBA. Which suggests he could be an even better GM than he already is. But between spending tons of money on bad players and backing yourself into corners you seem to be able to endlessly get out of, I'll take the later.

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10-12-2011, 02:56 AM
  #165
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Agreed. His job is to ice winning teams. He does it. Does he make mistakes and force his own hand sometimes? Yes he does. But EVERY GM makes mistakes, how many GMs have taken a last place team and made them into a playoff team 4 straight years appearing in the Conference Finals once and the Stanley Cup Finals once? That's what matters.

It's the balance of good moves and bad moves and the record they result in.


The sole criticism I really have is that sometimes it appears he makes mistakes based on a lack of knowledge of the CBA. Which suggests he could be an even better GM than he already is. But between spending tons of money on bad players and backing yourself into corners you seem to be able to endlessly get out of, I'll take the later.
Stanley Cup matters, little else is remembered over time. There's no silver medal going on here, if you fall short and it's pretty much predicted before hand why...there's a problem. As for our results? You can brag about our Prince of Wales Trophy all you wish.

Getting Versteeg to me is an obvious example, instead of going for a goalie at the time we top up our forwards (which was already heavy). If all you truly want is a competitive team that never finishes due to an obvious glaring reason, then I suppose you have right to brag about Holmgren's accomplishments. It seems to me when a simple problem exists, Holmgren generally makes 3 more that he then needs to fix, then comes back to the original problem and blows it up.

I agree that every GM makes mistakes, but I find it hard to understand that any of you truly believe he's taken even close to an optimal route with how he's done things. We've gone full speed for Win-Now depleting our farm team...to a full hault jettisoning forwards we grew...and now we're back at retooling with an aging defense corps.


Last edited by decadentia: 10-12-2011 at 03:05 AM.
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10-12-2011, 03:23 AM
  #166
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On my phone so don't have time to respond to Jester in full, but you're right in that we may not win this season after the moves. The thing is, we weren't going to before them either.

I can't believe so much emphasis is given to losing Scottie ****in' Upshall and trading a low first away. Holmgren took a chance with that, it's what successful GMs do.

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10-12-2011, 07:16 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Stanley Cup matters, little else is remembered over time. There's no silver medal going on here, if you fall short and it's pretty much predicted before hand why...there's a problem. As for our results? You can brag about our Prince of Wales Trophy all you wish.
I agree that Holmgren's decisions are apparently nonsensical at a number of points, and that when viewed from a distance there is no apparent grand scheme. He is pretty much winging it and I am not likely to be convinced otherwise. That said his results haven't been terrible to date, but we'll see how things look in five years. He hasn't had a chance for some of his mistakes to catch up to him yet.

Where I do disagree with you is the Stanley Cup being the only real metric for success. If you do an average job as a franchise, you'll win the cup once every thirty years. Nobody is around long enough to get the kind of sample size, and even if they were, could easily do a fine job and get unlucky. Holmgren has had some real success as the GM, in spite of the fact that we all know of some things he should have done to help himself have even more.

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10-12-2011, 08:32 AM
  #168
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Holmgren is an obvious knee jerk GM with a pile of cash to help him out of his mistakes. Most GM's don't have the financial resources that homer does. He should be held to a higher standard.

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10-12-2011, 09:11 AM
  #169
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On my phone so don't have time to respond to Jester in full, but you're right in that we may not win this season after the moves. The thing is, we weren't going to before them either.
Erm, why not? Two years ago we were a goalie away from a Cup... And not been an elite goalie, we just needed a competent goalie. Holmgren couldn't get that team a goalie, so he chopped them off at the knees. Last year we were one of the best teams in the league before injuries and a rookie in goal caught up with us.

Put a good goalie behind last years team and stay healthier, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't be able to compete for the Cup. He'll, stand pat and have Bob improve and you'd be competing.

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10-12-2011, 09:14 AM
  #170
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I agree that Holmgren's decisions are apparently nonsensical at a number of points, and that when viewed from a distance there is no apparent grand scheme. He is pretty much winging it and I am not likely to be convinced otherwise. That said his results haven't been terrible to date, but we'll see how things look in five years. He hasn't had a chance for some of his mistakes to catch up to him yet.

Where I do disagree with you is the Stanley Cup being the only real metric for success. If you do an average job as a franchise, you'll win the cup once every thirty years. Nobody is around long enough to get the kind of sample size, and even if they were, could easily do a fine job and get unlucky. Holmgren has had some real success as the GM, in spite of the fact that we all know of some things he should have done to help himself have even more.
1/30 is true in a theoretical world, it isn't true in the real world. The Flyers have been competing with a much smaller sample than that.

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10-12-2011, 09:17 AM
  #171
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On my phone so don't have time to respond to Jester in full, but you're right in that we may not win this season after the moves. The thing is, we weren't going to before them either.

I can't believe so much emphasis is given to losing Scottie ****in' Upshall and trading a low first away. Holmgren took a chance with that, it's what successful GMs do.
Again, it's not losing Upshall as such that is the problem. It's how Holmgren's manouvers put us in a situation where we had to trade someone to lose salary, and being put into that corner had to tack on a 2nd rounder to get a downgrade that wasn't completely a waste of space. And we still had to dress Jamie Fritsch and David Sloane in order to not go over the cap that year. In important games I might add, we were in a fight for fourth place I believe and getting home advantage. Guess which place we ended up in.

We were going into that year actually intending to field a d that looked like this:

Timonen-Väänänen
Coburn-Parent
Eminger-Jones
Kukkonen

that's just brutal. Then we had some injuries, and since Homer (and maybe Stevens as well) didn't trust any Phantoms to come up and fill in, we went out and got Alberts.

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10-12-2011, 10:29 AM
  #172
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Erm, why not? Two years ago we were a goalie away from a Cup... And not been an elite goalie, we just needed a competent goalie. Holmgren couldn't get that team a goalie, so he chopped them off at the knees. Last year we were one of the best teams in the league before injuries and a rookie in goal caught up with us.

Put a good goalie behind last years team and stay healthier, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't be able to compete for the Cup. He'll, stand pat and have Bob improve and you'd be competing.
If it was only that simple. It's been made pretty clear, by the team's actions and every pre-season statement from the GM, coach and vets. Every time they laud players who came to camp early and in shape, who take care of themselves off the ice etc., it's made clear that the problems Carter and Richards were causing in the dressing room were tearing the team apart. The 'dead room' of conflict and resentment is gone in favour of a united team in an upbeat locker room who are all on the same page as the coaches.

I am not sure the Flyers won't win both those trades this year.

Simmonds is playing really well, and Schenn will be recalled soon and help the team. Voracek is playing really well at RW too, and Couturier is looking more and more like a keeper.

To have four contributing players with good attitudes in your lineup over two players who had alienated the coaching staff and their veteran linemates is a good thing. Add to that the genius strokes of replacing Betts with Talbot and Leino with Jagr, and the team looks much better than last year's team. Even Lilja is looking better and more mobile than O'Donnell....

Put a good goalie in front of the same dysfunctional team and you get the same result, which is why they made the changes they did.

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10-12-2011, 10:34 AM
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I love how last year while the team was winning, there was no doubt they were all friends and everyone was happy. Then when they start losing, it's time to roll out the scapegoats and skin then alive.

Last year's team was dominant, but heavily injured towards the end. Put a goalie in front of them and let them heal and there's no reason to believe they wouldn't have had success. Unfortunately, this organization does love overreacting, so now we're probably another year or two away. If we can't shore up the defense soon, it's likely longer. We went from having the personnel to win now to having the personnel to win sometime.

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10-12-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
If it was only that simple. It's been made pretty clear, by the team's actions and every pre-season statement from the GM, coach and vets. Every time they laud players who came to camp early and in shape, who take care of themselves off the ice etc., it's made clear that the problems Carter and Richards were causing in the dressing room were tearing the team apart. The 'dead room' of conflict and resentment is gone in favour of a united team in an upbeat locker room who are all on the same page as the coaches.

I am not sure the Flyers won't win both those trades this year.

Simmonds is playing really well, and Schenn will be recalled soon and help the team. Voracek is playing really well at RW too, and Couturier is looking more and more like a keeper.

To have four contributing players with good attitudes in your lineup over two players who had alienated the coaching staff and their veteran linemates is a good thing. Add to that the genius strokes of replacing Betts with Talbot and Leino with Jagr, and the team looks much better than last year's team. Even Lilja is looking better and more mobile than O'Donnell....

Put a good goalie in front of the same dysfunctional team and you get the same result, which is why they made the changes they did.
That dysfunctional team played absolutely stellar hockey for about 14 months under Lavi until key injuries caught up with em. Unless you think this group would look great without Pronger and Timonen playing at half speed?

The reality is that your post is really the product of uncritical thinking as the team tries to cover its ass after making questionable moves from a hockey perspective short term. You talk as if they didn't compete for a Presidents Trophy last year, and reach the Cup Finals the year before with Boucher and Leighton.

We will welcome you here in reality whenever you feel like joining us.

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10-12-2011, 10:53 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
If it was only that simple. It's been made pretty clear, by the team's actions and every pre-season statement from the GM, coach and vets. Every time they laud players who came to camp early and in shape, who take care of themselves off the ice etc., it's made clear that the problems Carter and Richards were causing in the dressing room were tearing the team apart. The 'dead room' of conflict and resentment is gone in favour of a united team in an upbeat locker room who are all on the same page as the coaches.

I am not sure the Flyers won't win both those trades this year.

Simmonds is playing really well, and Schenn will be recalled soon and help the team. Voracek is playing really well at RW too, and Couturier is looking more and more like a keeper.

To have four contributing players with good attitudes in your lineup over two players who had alienated the coaching staff and their veteran linemates is a good thing. Add to that the genius strokes of replacing Betts with Talbot and Leino with Jagr, and the team looks much better than last year's team. Even Lilja is looking better and more mobile than O'Donnell....

Put a good goalie in front of the same dysfunctional team and you get the same result, which is why they made the changes they did.
I couldn't disagree more. This is all facts not in evidence. How is it been made clear that the problems being caused by Richards and Carter were tearing the team down? That's hogwash. There is no evidence to support that.
We have 4 players with good attitudes over players who have aleinated the Coaching staff and their veteran linemates? Based on what?
Of those 4 players, 3 of then have played 2 games in a Flyers uniform. One is in the AHL and two are Rookies in the League. Maybe get just a little bigger sample size before you label those players saints in the room.
And lastly no kidding the dead room of resentment and conflict is gone. Were two games into a brand new Season. Of course it's like that. There is no adversity.
This has to stop. The players, and management and Coaches has all denied this fantasy beleif that the media has portrayed. And they've done it recently. It's very simple. Losing creates these issues. Winning solves them. It has nothing to do with any of that other nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I love how last year while the team was winning, there was no doubt they were all friends and everyone was happy. Then when they start losing, it's time to roll out the scapegoats and skin then alive.

Last year's team was dominant, but heavily injured towards the end. Put a goalie in front of them and let them heal and there's no reason to believe they wouldn't have had success. Unfortunately, this organization does love overreacting, so now we're probably another year or two away. If we can't shore up the defense soon, it's likely longer. We went from having the personnel to win now to having the personnel to win sometime.
You didn't hear any of this when the team was cruising along at the top of the NHL standings. At some point in the middle of the Seasoon, Carter and Richards decided to cause problems and tear the team apart I guess.

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