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Do we give Holmgren enough credit?

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Old
10-12-2011, 03:52 PM
  #251
Beef Invictus
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What narrative have I added, exactly?

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10-12-2011, 03:53 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The more I read your replies on this the more my brain is scrambled. Your taking a very simple concept and twisting it with a lot of fancy language, and ridiculously over complicating it. Invictus has it right. Getting a better Goalie better positions your team to win a Championship. It's as simple as that. It doesn't guarantee anything, but no move made does.
If BI was actually limiting himself to such conclusions, that would be fine. But when he says something like, "Roloson would have made every stop Leighton did," he is not really playing by those stated rules.

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10-12-2011, 03:55 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
If BI was actually limiting himself to such conclusions, that would be fine. But when he says something like, "Roloson would have made every stop Leighton did," he is not really playing by those stated rules.
Why wouldn't he have? He wasn't exactly making hard stops. When he was forced to make hard stops, those shots usually went in...many were on shots that a better goalie tends to stop, too.

That's the thing: Roloson is BETTER. Leighton wasn't challenged until the Finals. Leighton wasn't doing anything superhuman that no other human can do. He wasn't making incredible, game stealing stops. There is zero reason to believe that Roloson wouldn't have had similar success, and since having a better goalie increases the chances of such success, it's reasonable to believe it would have been more likely for Roloson to succeed than Leighton.

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10-12-2011, 03:56 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What narrative have I added, exactly?
The two key ones:

Essentially, all of Leigthon's saves were "replacement level" stops, if asked to do anything beyond that, he failed.

Roloson would have stopped everything that Leighton did, and more.

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10-12-2011, 03:58 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The two key ones:

Essentially, all of Leigthon's saves were "replacement level" stops, if asked to do anything beyond that, he failed.

Roloson would have stopped everything that Leighton did, and more.
Almost all of Leighton's saves were of the easy variety. He truly was not challenged...and when he was, he almost always failed. Since Rolo is a better goalie, there's lots of reason to believe he would NOT do worse on easy shots than Leighton.

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10-12-2011, 04:01 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Is or is not asset management important?

Can you give me a list of teams that consistently pawn off draft picks to get teams to take other contracts. AHL ones at that?

Is it asking too much to simply just do what the other 29 NHL teams do?
Of course assets are important. But with betts being sent back put us in a pickle and this is how we got out of it. Seriously a 6th round pick is not going to make or break this organization. To me this is nitpicking. The draft is such a crapshoot that to freak out over a 6rd pick is crazy.

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10-12-2011, 04:06 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Why wouldn't he have? He wasn't exactly making hard stops. When he was forced to make hard stops, those shots usually went in...many were on shots that a better goalie tends to stop, too.

That's the thing: Roloson is BETTER. Leighton wasn't challenged until the Finals. Leighton wasn't doing anything superhuman that no other human can do. He wasn't making incredible stops.

Because it is non-reality and you have no knowledge of it! Why wouldn't a baby alien burst through his chest and kill him instantly? That question is just as good as yours. And great, now our starting goalie is dead.

Why won't Ilya Bryzgalov get a shutout tonight? Are you telling me he can't make all the saves?

When you start with a counterfactual non-reality as your basis, your claims are just as speculative as any claim about a future event which is at the present time not real.

Tomas Vokoun is better than Roloson AND Leighton, is he not? Well check this clip for some examples of what can happen to a goalie who is even far better than the two we are discussing:

http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/#clip547266

Edit: Here's the actual game highlights, which I couldn't find at first. http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/#clip547262

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10-12-2011, 04:09 PM
  #258
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Vokoun is known for playing terribly in the first game of the season, so that game should surprise nobody. He gets better as the season goes on and rarely has games like that.

If anything, Vokoun just lived up to expectations as outlined by his past performance...just like you could expect Roloson to be every bit as good as Leighton behind that Flyers defense based on past performance.

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10-12-2011, 04:11 PM
  #259
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It's not really about the draft pick as it is the principle. Holmgren is almost always making trades from a position of weakness

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10-12-2011, 04:14 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Vokoun is known for playing terribly in the first game of the season, so that game should surprise nobody. He gets better as the season goes on and rarely has games like that.

If anything, Vokoun just lived up to expectations as outlined by his past performance...just like you could expect Roloson to be every bit as good as Leighton behind that Flyers defense based on past performance.

There you go wrapping a narrative around everything. So I guess Dwayne Roloson is known for getting hurt in the first game of the SCF and we should have expected the same thing to happen if the Flyers had acquired him.

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10-12-2011, 04:14 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
There you go wrapping a narrative around everything. So I guess Dwayne Roloson is known for getting hurt in the first game of the SCF and we should have expected the same thing to happen if the Flyers had acquired him.
hahaha, small sample size vs large sample size.

Vokoun has had many first games. Roloson has not had very many SCF starts.

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10-12-2011, 04:15 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It's not really about the draft pick as it is the principle. Holmgren is almost always making trades from a position of weakness
so this is a personal issue you have with holmgren because of his principles.

Ville leino , is a great example of a team making a trade from a position of weakness. Holmgren has never traded a player with that type of ability away because he was in a position of weakness.

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10-12-2011, 04:16 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
We didn't need more goals and had aptly replaced Umberger. We lost 3 games in the Finals where we scored 3 goals, and another we had to win in overtime.
You're missing the point. I'm not saying we needed more goals or anything like that. The poster that was directing that at is saying Roloson is better so therefore would have done better. I am saying that just sticking a better player into a position doesn't mean that player will have a better impact. Stick Ovechkin or whomever you want on that line instead of Umberger and it is by no means a guarantee that he puts up better numbers. You can speculate that he might, and it might even be more likely that he would, but that doesn't make it a guarantee. He also could have done worse. Just like putting a player that isn't as good as Umberger on that line and he may have done better.

The point I've been making is that speculative results cannot possibly be worth as much, and certainly not more than, actual results, but many posters on here appear to be giving more credit to the speculative results rather than the real ones.

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10-12-2011, 04:18 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
so this is a personal issue you have with holmgren because of his principles.

Ville leino , is a great example of a team making a trade from a position of weakness. Holmgren has never traded a player with that type of ability away because he was in a position of weakness.
Ok, you can have Ville Leino and Braydon Coburn. I'll take all the guys he put on waivers instead.

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10-12-2011, 04:19 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
so this is a personal issue you have with holmgren because of his principles.

Ville leino , is a great example of a team making a trade from a position of weakness. Holmgren has never traded a player with that type of ability away because he was in a position of weakness.
Oh man, cue the Scottie "career high 34 points" Upshall argument.

3...2...1...

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10-12-2011, 04:22 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You're missing the point. I'm not saying we needed more goals or anything like that. The poster that was directing that at is saying Roloson is better so therefore would have done better. I am saying that just sticking a better player into a position doesn't mean that player will have a better impact. Stick Ovechkin or whomever you want on that line instead of Umberger and it is by no means a guarantee that he puts up better numbers. You can speculate that he might, and it might even be more likely that he would, but that doesn't make it a guarantee. He also could have done worse. Just like putting a player that isn't as good as Umberger on that line and he may have done better.

The point I've been making is that speculative results cannot possibly be worth as much, and certainly not more than, actual results, but many posters on here appear to be giving more credit to the speculative results rather than the real ones.
In the World of Pro Hockey, when a GM puts a team together, drafts players, signs free agents, trades players. Aren't the results of those moves always speculative? So what is the GM basing those moves on, what reasons does he have for making those moves? What the player has done in the past. So one can reasonably say, although with some speculation. That upgrading a position can produce better results for his team in the future.

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10-12-2011, 04:23 PM
  #267
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Ok, you can have Ville Leino and Braydon Coburn. I'll take all the guys he put on waivers instead.
who would those be?

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10-12-2011, 04:24 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh man, cue the Scottie "career high 34 points" Upshall argument.

3...2...1...
Scottie Upshall sucks!

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10-12-2011, 04:26 PM
  #269
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Scottie Upshall shucks!
fixed

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10-12-2011, 04:28 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh man, cue the Scottie "career high 34 points" Upshall argument.

3...2...1...
Yeah the Scottie Upshall. Who is on his fourth team.

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10-12-2011, 04:31 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
In the World of Pro Hockey, when a GM puts a team together, drafts players, signs free agents, trades players. Aren't the results of those moves always speculative? So what is the GM basing those moves on, what reasons does he have for making those moves? What the player has done in the past. So one can reasonably say, although with some speculation. That upgrading a position can produce better results for his team in the future.
A little late to the party here. Go back a couple pages, this was discussed. Speculating about future results with nothing to compare it to in the future is different than speculating about what could have happened in the past vs. what did.

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10-12-2011, 04:39 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It's poor asset management more than anything. Which is still important.


Obviously theyre really high on Couturier and Schenn making the team. Kind of annoying to see the 6th go for (what will be) nothing, but whatever.

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10-12-2011, 04:40 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
hahaha, small sample size vs large sample size.

Vokoun has had many first games. Roloson has not had very many SCF starts.

Opening night 2009: Vokoun stops 52 out of 55 shots vs the Blackhawks. Vokoun's string of dreadful opening nights was 2006-2008, so it is a narrative that had been formed with a sample size of 3 games. Outside of those 3 games, Vokoun's opening nights are a hodgepodge of good, mediocre and below average performances.

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10-12-2011, 04:42 PM
  #274
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That 6th rounder was the pick we intended on drafting Hyka with since we couldn't since him this preseason. Pittsburgh will draft him and he will play along side Crosby and be his go to guy and pit 50 a year for 10 years. Man that would be terrible

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10-12-2011, 04:43 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
A little late to the party here. Go back a couple pages, this was discussed. Speculating about future results with nothing to compare it to in the future is different than speculating about what could have happened in the past vs. what did.
I don't think I am late to the party. You missed the point I made.

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