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Madison Square Garden Renovations (Part Three)

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Old
10-13-2011, 04:55 PM
  #26
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it says 1926, the year we were established
Actually, the 1926 is a tribute to Stan Fischler's year of birth.

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10-13-2011, 04:58 PM
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I like the way that logo looks but it does also concern me a bit about the Winter Classic jerseys in that it seems to be much the same as the Pittsburgh thirds, which were ripped off after by the Panthers, Blues, Blue Jackets...the "logo in a ring" thing, I mean.

And I mean it's pure baseless speculation, but those jerseys have been popping up left and right it seems.

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10-13-2011, 05:24 PM
  #28
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wow, great center ice logo. best we've had in a long time.

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10-13-2011, 07:18 PM
  #29
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How much is that wonderful food going to be? Ha.

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10-13-2011, 07:29 PM
  #30
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look at how many shadows are there! turn on the lights for the cameras!

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10-13-2011, 07:31 PM
  #31
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If the NBA has a full season lockout, you think the Garden ice will be of better quality throughout the season?
no, it will only make a minimal difference. the company that handles all the nhl ice, jet ice, was just in our building last month. i was talking directly to one of the company higher ups about the nhl ice, issues in various rinks, and issues with the winter classic ice setups. msg's events schedule is a major issue but all the issues are coupled with the fact that the design on msg's ice sheet and its distance to compressor slab cause a ridiculous amount of brine to be used to pump from the slab all the way to, and thru the ice floor. the slab is located 3-4 floors away from the rink if i remember correctly. through all that travel there is an enormous amount of heat soak, and thermal lag. the new compressor system, piping, and floor that were done this off season should help, but it will not solve the basic issues.

so long answer made short = msg's ice quality generally has little to do with the nba. we drop a floor on our sheet fairly often but do not have anything close to the issues msg has with their ice.

also i talked to one of the operations guys at msg and another issue is with msg's schedule, WHEN they remove their ice during the season for various events, they rush the ice back in to get it installed in a one day/night shot. the issue with this is you are doing big long floods to the ice, whereas if you do small floods and build it in more, thin layers you create a stronger sheet of ice that will withstand the abuse of higher intensity skating. these issues just come with the type of schedule and building that msg has and is

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10-13-2011, 08:34 PM
  #32
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How much is that wonderful food going to be? Ha.
First born child.

I will admit, though. The photos made me want to eat my chair...

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Old
10-13-2011, 08:55 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
no, it will only make a minimal difference. the company that handles all the nhl ice, jet ice, was just in our building last month. i was talking directly to one of the company higher ups about the nhl ice, issues in various rinks, and issues with the winter classic ice setups. msg's events schedule is a major issue but all the issues are coupled with the fact that the design on msg's ice sheet and its distance to compressor slab cause a ridiculous amount of brine to be used to pump from the slab all the way to, and thru the ice floor. the slab is located 3-4 floors away from the rink if i remember correctly. through all that travel there is an enormous amount of heat soak, and thermal lag. the new compressor system, piping, and floor that were done this off season should help, but it will not solve the basic issues.

so long answer made short = msg's ice quality generally has little to do with the nba. we drop a floor on our sheet fairly often but do not have anything close to the issues msg has with their ice.

also i talked to one of the operations guys at msg and another issue is with msg's schedule, WHEN they remove their ice during the season for various events, they rush the ice back in to get it installed in a one day/night shot. the issue with this is you are doing big long floods to the ice, whereas if you do small floods and build it in more, thin layers you create a stronger sheet of ice that will withstand the abuse of higher intensity skating. these issues just come with the type of schedule and building that msg has and is
Im not saying I disbelieve you... but, I was under the impression they never remove the ice during the season. Simply lay a couple of layers of flooring onto of it. Like they do with basketball games.

Also, I don't believe they can just flood the rink in one shot. There are a couple of layers done before they paint a layer and then have several above that. The paint job isn't done on the floor, i believe.

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10-13-2011, 08:59 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Im not saying I disbelieve you... but, I was under the impression they never remove the ice during the season. Simply lay a couple of layers of flooring onto of it. Like they do with basketball games.

Also, I don't believe they can just flood the rink in one shot. There are a couple of layers done before they paint a layer and then have several above that. The paint job isn't done on the floor, i believe.
I know it's removed for the circus. And he didn't say they flooded the rink in one shot. He said one day/night shot in thicker layers than normal. You are correct about the paint.

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10-13-2011, 09:07 PM
  #35
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That looks terrific

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Old
10-13-2011, 09:29 PM
  #36
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I know it's removed for the circus. And he didn't say they flooded the rink in one shot. He said one day/night shot in thicker layers than normal. You are correct about the paint.
yes this is correct

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10-13-2011, 09:34 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Im not saying I disbelieve you... but, I was under the impression they never remove the ice during the season. Simply lay a couple of layers of flooring onto of it. Like they do with basketball games.

Also, I don't believe they can just flood the rink in one shot. There are a couple of layers done before they paint a layer and then have several above that. The paint job isn't done on the floor, i believe.
the floor is a concrete base as you can see in the construction photos. the actual ice process is 3 this base coats with a spray wand, then 3 coats with the same wand but with the white paint mixed in at the right ratios, then 3-4 sealing coats with the wand. after that the logos are laid and sealed. then you flood layers of ice. our building does one install a year and we spend 4-5 8hr days doing the total install, but our install takes so much longer bc we do the thin layer hose floods and let it freeze then add. its a lengthier process but makes a far superior ice sheet.

as for the drop floor it is used for certain events, but only those that dont put enormous strain on the sheet, wont induce a massive amount of heat on it, or create a mess. i know my way with this ice making think as i kinda slipped into the profession accidentally but have been knee deep in it for a decade now. some of the stories i heard about the winter classic mistakes and idiocies though made me laugh out loud.

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10-13-2011, 09:53 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
the floor is a concrete base as you can see in the construction photos. the actual ice process is 3 this base coats with a spray wand, then 3 coats with the same wand but with the white paint mixed in at the right ratios, then 3-4 sealing coats with the wand. after that the logos are laid and sealed. then you flood layers of ice. our building does one install a year and we spend 4-5 8hr days doing the total install, but our install takes so much longer bc we do the thin layer hose floods and let it freeze then add. its a lengthier process but makes a far superior ice sheet.

as for the drop floor it is used for certain events, but only those that dont put enormous strain on the sheet, wont induce a massive amount of heat on it, or create a mess. i know my way with this ice making think as i kinda slipped into the profession accidentally but have been knee deep in it for a decade now. some of the stories i heard about the winter classic mistakes and idiocies though made me laugh out loud.
Very interesting stuff. Thanks.

So they definitely remove it for the circus.

There aren't any dirt bike or monster truck shows scheduled this year, are there?

When you say "lay down the logos" are they painted fresh each time, or are they decals that can be reused?

The whole thing seems extremely tedious. But to be the artist painting the MSG ice must be awesome.

Edit: they're installing a new system at the end of the last renovation right?

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10-14-2011, 01:26 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Very interesting stuff. Thanks.

So they definitely remove it for the circus.

There aren't any dirt bike or monster truck shows scheduled this year, are there?

When you say "lay down the logos" are they painted fresh each time, or are they decals that can be reused?

The whole thing seems extremely tedious. But to be the artist painting the MSG ice must be awesome.

Edit: they're installing a new system at the end of the last renovation right?
the rodeo is another event they remove it for.

IF im correct they redid the floor this summer. i remember there being concern about the floor bc it needed to set a number of weeks before they could put heavy machinery on it which they would be doing the same summer to redo the roof.

as for the logos, it depends. MANY are hand painted. the logo comes as a brown paper stencil which has tiny holes all over it. you then take chalk and a swifter and rub chalk on the paper once its laid in position on the ice. the chalk goes on the ice via those holes and once the paper is picked up the chalk becomes the outline on the ice. after that point you hand paint the logos.

alternatively, that company i mentioned earlier has worked with the caps in particular to do R&D on some tough fabric material that you can order a made logo, then lay it in the ice and it will actually accept and hold the water/ice and saves a ton of time. the only issue is if the ice is rutted or chipped down to the logo skates may get stuck in it, which of coarse isnt an issue with painted logos. this material can be reused as well. its a matter of preference. we hand paint everything however and i prefer it that way.

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10-14-2011, 01:29 AM
  #40
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if any of you are interested in the process here are a bunch of pics i took 2 years ago when we put our ice in. give a pretty decent idea of how it happens

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1732159&type=3

if the link doesnt work let me know

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10-14-2011, 02:14 AM
  #41
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I know it's removed for the circus. And he didn't say they flooded the rink in one shot. He said one day/night shot in thicker layers than normal. You are correct about the paint.
It's not removed for the circus or for that matter little else. Once the ice is down it stays down. Most rinks (and I assume The Garden) cycle the ice plant four hours on and four hours off. When the cycle is off, the ice melts a little and when it freezes again it it's gets stronger and more stable. The days of pulling the ice in and out are long gone. There have been events at The Garden the same day as a circus performance.

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10-14-2011, 07:09 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
It's not removed for the circus or for that matter little else. Once the ice is down it stays down. Most rinks (and I assume The Garden) cycle the ice plant four hours on and four hours off. When the cycle is off, the ice melts a little and when it freezes again it it's gets stronger and more stable. The days of pulling the ice in and out are long gone. There have been events at The Garden the same day as a circus performance.
Didn't they tell me on the Garden guided tour that animals won't go out on even covered ice?

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10-14-2011, 08:55 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
if any of you are interested in the process here are a bunch of pics i took 2 years ago when we put our ice in. give a pretty decent idea of how it happens

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1732159&type=3

if the link doesnt work let me know
That was awesome! Thanks for posting.

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10-14-2011, 09:04 AM
  #44
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Obviously the team is commemorating the reunion on Brad Richards (19) and Ruslan Fedotenko (26). What's with all this 1926 mumbo jumbo. Has nothing to do with the team

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10-14-2011, 10:59 AM
  #45
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It's not removed for the circus or for that matter little else. Once the ice is down it stays down. Most rinks (and I assume The Garden) cycle the ice plant four hours on and four hours off. When the cycle is off, the ice melts a little and when it freezes again it it's gets stronger and more stable. The days of pulling the ice in and out are long gone. There have been events at The Garden the same day as a circus performance.
It's melted for the dog show. Despite layers of flooring, w/ the ice intact, the dogs have a tendency/desire to dig.

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10-14-2011, 12:36 PM
  #46
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im not going to argue with anyone about whether it does or does not come out. i KNOW FOR A FACT it comes out. furthermore, the staff at msg loves when it does bc as i said they work like hell in a one day/night shot to reinstall it and their crew gets paid a massive shot of overtime for the amount of time they stay in installing it. this said directly to me by one of msg's operations managers.

as for the comment about letting it warm and then freezing it again, you are correct on some level but not for the reason you are describing.rinks will allow the ice to warm just above freezing to about 33-35 degrees for a very short amount of time in order to have the cuts and such disappear in the ice. it makes the sheet look brand new again. however allot of places wont do this bc if you time it wrong or have any sort of compressor malfunction that delays the restart of the system, you risk the ice popping for the floor. good ice is bonded to the floor, it doesnt just sit on it. thats why the floor needs to be meticulously cleaned before ice install. if the ice does not bond to the floor (or it pops from the floor bc of a compressor issue) then the ice will refreeze, but it will break out in chunks, and you will actually feel it move at times under you. its hard to imagine or believe but its true.

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10-14-2011, 12:44 PM
  #47
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no, it will only make a minimal difference. the company that handles all the nhl ice, jet ice, was just in our building last month. i was talking directly to one of the company higher ups about the nhl ice, issues in various rinks, and issues with the winter classic ice setups. msg's events schedule is a major issue but all the issues are coupled with the fact that the design on msg's ice sheet and its distance to compressor slab cause a ridiculous amount of brine to be used to pump from the slab all the way to, and thru the ice floor. the slab is located 3-4 floors away from the rink if i remember correctly. through all that travel there is an enormous amount of heat soak, and thermal lag. the new compressor system, piping, and floor that were done this off season should help, but it will not solve the basic issues.

so long answer made short = msg's ice quality generally has little to do with the nba. we drop a floor on our sheet fairly often but do not have anything close to the issues msg has with their ice.

also i talked to one of the operations guys at msg and another issue is with msg's schedule, WHEN they remove their ice during the season for various events, they rush the ice back in to get it installed in a one day/night shot. the issue with this is you are doing big long floods to the ice, whereas if you do small floods and build it in more, thin layers you create a stronger sheet of ice that will withstand the abuse of higher intensity skating. these issues just come with the type of schedule and building that msg has and is
What can MSG realistically do to improve the ice quality? IIRC one of the posters on here (I think it was Bobhop?) was saying that they plan to lay down a new foundation for the ice surface over the next summer or two... Will that help?

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10-14-2011, 01:25 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
im not going to argue with anyone about whether it does or does not come out. i KNOW FOR A FACT it comes out. furthermore, the staff at msg loves when it does bc as i said they work like hell in a one day/night shot to reinstall it and their crew gets paid a massive shot of overtime for the amount of time they stay in installing it. this said directly to me by one of msg's operations managers.

as for the comment about letting it warm and then freezing it again, you are correct on some level but not for the reason you are describing.rinks will allow the ice to warm just above freezing to about 33-35 degrees for a very short amount of time in order to have the cuts and such disappear in the ice. it makes the sheet look brand new again. however allot of places wont do this bc if you time it wrong or have any sort of compressor malfunction that delays the restart of the system, you risk the ice popping for the floor. good ice is bonded to the floor, it doesnt just sit on it. thats why the floor needs to be meticulously cleaned before ice install. if the ice does not bond to the floor (or it pops from the floor bc of a compressor issue) then the ice will refreeze, but it will break out in chunks, and you will actually feel it move at times under you. its hard to imagine or believe but its true.
there is no way they take it out for the circus. especially when they have a matinee performance of the circus at 12 and then a ranger game at 7. it happens every year, the ice is not taken out for the circus

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10-14-2011, 06:41 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
im not going to argue with anyone about whether it does or does not come out. i KNOW FOR A FACT it comes out. furthermore, the staff at msg loves when it does bc as i said they work like hell in a one day/night shot to reinstall it and their crew gets paid a massive shot of overtime for the amount of time they stay in installing it. this said directly to me by one of msg's operations managers.

as for the comment about letting it warm and then freezing it again, you are correct on some level but not for the reason you are describing.rinks will allow the ice to warm just above freezing to about 33-35 degrees for a very short amount of time in order to have the cuts and such disappear in the ice. it makes the sheet look brand new again. however allot of places wont do this bc if you time it wrong or have any sort of compressor malfunction that delays the restart of the system, you risk the ice popping for the floor. good ice is bonded to the floor, it doesnt just sit on it. thats why the floor needs to be meticulously cleaned before ice install. if the ice does not bond to the floor (or it pops from the floor bc of a compressor issue) then the ice will refreeze, but it will break out in chunks, and you will actually feel it move at times under you. its hard to imagine or believe but its true.
Interesting that last part.

I've seen local rinks that are a sand box basically, maybe that's why. So the ice bonds better at the bottom. I thought it was a little odd, but it makes sense.

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10-15-2011, 02:49 PM
  #50
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there is no way they take it out for the circus. especially when they have a matinee performance of the circus at 12 and then a ranger game at 7. it happens every year, the ice is not taken out for the circus
if youve been looking and reading i NEVER said they take it out for the circus. someone else suggested it. i said they DO take it out throughout the season.

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