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Old
10-14-2011, 01:35 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Does Martin have a plan
why would he start now ? identifying 1st line wingers and PP contributors by drawing plugs names out of a hat is working just fine...

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10-14-2011, 02:05 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
He eased Eller into the lineup, coming off an injury.

As the game went on Eller got more responsibility and Darche got less (at even strength).

That doesn't sound like bad coaching to me.



I put the blame for the loss last night solely on the players. I'm sure JM isn't telling Erik Cole to fail 4 times at clearing the puck from his own end.

I'm sure JM isn't telling the team to take stupid undisciplined penalties in the first period.

I'm sure JM isn't telling the forwards to not back check and pick up David Moss as the trailer.

The coach can only be as good as the players on the ice... and last night, the players on the ice stunk.
You have it backwards. The players are only as good as the coach and the system/situations he forces his players to play in.

If a player follows a weak or flawed system and does as told, whose fault is it if the results are not good? Player or coach?

Pleks is doing what Martin tells him to do......play the point....and the team struggles because of that. Pleks fault for not being a DMan accustomed to playing point? Or Martin's for putting him in that position?

Moen is not a top 6 winger and does not have great passing abilities or shooting touch. So he is playing on a line with two talented forwards who need great passes to and someone to receive passes from. Not happening with Moen on that line. Whose fault is it? Moen for being less talented than his line mates? His linemates who are not getting the feeds? Or Martin for putting Moen and his linemates in that postion?

Hockey is a team game. Lines have to click together to have synergy and success. When a center has a varying number of different forwards over 3 periods and the CHEMISTRY is not there between the linemates, whose fault is it? The forwards for playing with random players? Or the coach who is juggling the lines constantly.

When Gill is so slow that forwards from the other team are skating past him and he is constantly out of position and when his skill level has dropped to the point where he is always turning over the puck, whose fault is that? Gill's for getting old and slow? Or Martin for giving him too much ice time in situations other than penalty kills?

Subban is running around on the PP and trying to do too much because he knows Pleks is on the other point. Subban is running around because he knows Gill cannot keep up. Subban is making mistakes. Whose fault is that? Subban's for trying to do too much on the ice or Martin's for putting him in those two unwinnable positions?


The simple route is to merely blame the players for performance. However, when you break down what happened last night, the blame falls squarely on the drooped shoulders of ONE TIMER Martin. Contrary to what a lot of people believe, coaching DOES matter.

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10-14-2011, 02:11 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I'm sure JM isn't telling the team to take stupid undisciplined penalties in the first period.
How undisciplined of Mathieu Darche to get hooked down and fall on another players leg causing him to fall, and being the only one who ends up with a penalty(Which led to the Flames comeback via PP goal).

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10-14-2011, 02:13 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You have it backwards. The players are only as good as the coach and the system/situations he forces his players to play in.

If a player follows a weak or flawed system and does as told, whose fault is it if the results are not good? Player or coach?

Pleks is doing what Martin tells him to do......play the point....and the team struggles because of that. Pleks fault for not being a DMan accustomed to playing point? Or Martin's for putting him in that position?

Moen is not a top 6 winger and does not have great passing abilities or shooting touch. So he is playing on a line with two talented forwards who need great passes to and someone to receive passes from. Not happening with Moen on that line. Whose fault is it? Moen for being less talented than his line mates? His linemates who are not getting the feeds? Or Martin for putting Moen and his linemates in that postion?

Hockey is a team game. Lines have to click together to have synergy and success. When a center has a varying number of different forwards over 3 periods and the CHEMISTRY is not there between the linemates, whose fault is it? The forwards for playing with random players? Or the coach who is juggling the lines constantly.

When Gill is so slow that forwards from the other team are skating past him and he is constantly out of position and when his skill level has dropped to the point where he is always turning over the puck, whose fault is that? Gill's for getting old and slow? Or Martin for giving him too much ice time in situations other than penalty kills?

Subban is running around on the PP and trying to do too much because he knows Pleks is on the other point. Subban is running around because he knows Gill cannot keep up. Subban is making mistakes. Whose fault is that? Subban's for trying to do too much on the ice or Martin's for putting him in those two unwinnable positions?


The simple route is to merely blame the players for performance. However, when you break down what happened last night, the blame falls squarely on the drooped shoulders of ONE TIMER Martin. Contrary to what a lot of people believe, coaching DOES matter.
and that's why when all our F are healthy he is on a 3rd/4th line...

Yes. he was playing that way at the beginning of last season also... you cant blame Gill for being too slow - it is what it is and will never change for the better, but as far as doing too much, YES players have responsibilities in that...


Yup, JM is to blame for both Gionta minors as well as Gill's... he's also to blame for havin to play rookies (Emelin, Diaz) and sophomores (Weber - to some extent, PK) on D... maybe we should blame him for Gill slowliness too, no ?

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10-14-2011, 02:16 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
How undisciplined of Mathieu Darche to get hooked down and fall on another players leg causing him to fall, and being the only one who ends up with a penalty(Which led to the Flames comeback via PP goal).
Was that the only penalty?

It was 1-1 at that point.... Immediately afterwards the Habs took two stupid, and much deserved penalties.

Suddenly they are down 2-1.

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10-14-2011, 02:17 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Was that the only penalty?

It was 1-1 at that point.... Immediately afterwards the Habs took two stupid, and much deserved penalties.

Suddenly they are down 2-1.
Take out that free PP goal and it's an entirely different game.

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10-14-2011, 02:19 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Take out that free PP goal and it's an entirely different game.
maybe, but that doesnt justify taking dumb penalties.

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10-14-2011, 02:21 PM
  #58
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All of the penalties were by vets, so I'm not sure what you expect Martin to do. He doesn't know how to bench vets.

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10-14-2011, 02:21 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Take out that free PP goal and it's an entirely different game.
Sure.

But **** happens... refs make bad calls in the NHL in every single game.

When the ref makes a bad call, you live with it and move on.

**** happens... its 1-1.

You have a few options.

1) Shrug it off, the score is 1-1 and there are ~50 or so minutes of hockey left. Go put together some good shifts and try to win the game.
2) Play undisciplined, uninspired hockey and give the Flames more PPs and lose the game.


The Habs last night did #2. The ideal way to respond is #1.

It was still a 1-1 game... Habs had every opportunity to play well for 50 minutes and win the game. They didn't.

Sorry, not blaming this one on refereeing. A good team will react to the adversity and step up to meet the challenge. Last night, this team didn't.

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10-14-2011, 02:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and that's why when all our F are healthy he is on a 3rd/4th line...

Yes. he was playing that way at the beginning of last season also... you cant blame Gill for being too slow - it is what it is and will never change for the better, but as far as doing too much, YES players have responsibilities in that...


Yup, JM is to blame for both Gionta minors as well as Gill's... he's also to blame for havin to play rookies (Emelin, Diaz) and sophomores (Weber - to some extent, PK) on D... maybe we should blame him for Gill slowliness too, no ?
Irrelevant. Palushaj is a better passer than Moen. So is Darche. So is anyone else on the team. Moen, while I like the guy on this team, has hands of stone and is not top 6 material.

Gill needs to retire. Honestly. If not retire, then JM needs to suit up 7 Dmen and let Gill play only on the PK. And let a young guy come up from Hamilton to get some experience. Cant do worse than Gill.

As a coach, it is your job to prepare your players.......rookies or not....and motivate your players. The random benching and line juggling and other Chinese fire drill routines Martin had the Habs doing last night was a dis-service to the rookies........and the veterans.

As another person said, establish two lines of Pleks, Cole, Kostitsyn and Gomez, Pacioretty, Gionta and let them develop chemistry without the threat of demotions and benchings. Then, get a third line of Eller, Palushaj and Darche and let them develop chemistry. And a fourth line with DD Moen and Engqvist.

Let them play together to develop chemistry. Martin does not understand chemistry. And it is to the detriment of this team, injuries or not. Injuries is an excuse. Teamwork can and will overcome injuries.......if they are allowed to play as a team and not moveable at will individual players.

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10-14-2011, 02:45 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
All of the penalties were by vets, so I'm not sure what you expect Martin to do. He doesn't know how to bench vets.
What about this concept?

Instead of constantly threatening and then benching players for mistakes, why doesnt Martin take the time to instruct his players.

Positive reinforcement goes a lot farther than constant threats. When a player knows that if he makes a mistake, he will be benched or demoted, that player will be as tight as a drum and not relaxed. What does that cause? More mistakes. Its a self-fulfilling nightmare as shown by O'Byrne and Pouliot.

It would not harm Martin (or the team) one bit if he were to walk down to where Kostitsyn was sitting and tap him on the shoulder and ask him if he realized what he did wrong. AK would say yes. And Martin could simply instruct him on how to not commit that mistake in the future. That is teaching. That is COACHING. And if AK did it again, Martin can dish out bag skating punishment in practice.

Benching during a game is counter-productive and demotivating not only for the player, but the entire team.

And that is Martin's achilles heel and the reason he has not been able to win it all.

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10-14-2011, 03:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What about this concept?

Instead of constantly threatening and then benching players for mistakes, why doesnt Martin take the time to instruct his players.

Positive reinforcement goes a lot farther than constant threats. When a player knows that if he makes a mistake, he will be benched or demoted, that player will be as tight as a drum and not relaxed. What does that cause? More mistakes. Its a self-fulfilling nightmare as shown by O'Byrne and Pouliot.

It would not harm Martin (or the team) one bit if he were to walk down to where Kostitsyn was sitting and tap him on the shoulder and ask him if he realized what he did wrong. AK would say yes. And Martin could simply instruct him on how to not commit that mistake in the future. That is teaching. That is COACHING. And if AK did it again, Martin can dish out bag skating punishment in practice.

And that is Martin's achilles heel and the reason he has not been able to win it all.
Every coach and player has both strengths and weaknesses. .Benching during a game is counter-productive and demotivating not only for the player, but the entire team. I think that is one of the biggest weaknesses that Martin has. He uses the bench as a teaching tool and that has been counterproductive

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10-14-2011, 03:35 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What about this concept?

Instead of constantly threatening and then benching players for mistakes, why doesnt Martin take the time to instruct his players.

Positive reinforcement goes a lot farther than constant threats. When a player knows that if he makes a mistake, he will be benched or demoted, that player will be as tight as a drum and not relaxed. What does that cause? More mistakes. Its a self-fulfilling nightmare as shown by O'Byrne and Pouliot.

It would not harm Martin (or the team) one bit if he were to walk down to where Kostitsyn was sitting and tap him on the shoulder and ask him if he realized what he did wrong. AK would say yes. And Martin could simply instruct him on how to not commit that mistake in the future. That is teaching. That is COACHING. And if AK did it again, Martin can dish out bag skating punishment in practice.

Benching during a game is counter-productive and demotivating not only for the player, but the entire team.

And that is Martin's achilles heel and the reason he has not been able to win it all.

Benching a player is something only a cold, impersonal coach does. A coach that players want to play for would never do something like this. Never.

No wonder you're such a big fan of Guy Boucher. His PHD (or whatever) in Sports Psychology gives him an edge in dealing with his players. He looks beyond the conventional "bench a struggling player" approach. This intangible makes Boucher such an upgrade over Jacques Martin. He would never sit down a 26 year old forward with tons of skill just because he made a few mistakes, or took a couple shifts off. Boucher knows that would crush the player's will and demotivate the entire team.


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SITTING OUT: Coach Guy Boucher benched Teddy Purcell in the third period with the wing having only three shifts in the second for a total of 8:10 of ice time. "I wasn't really moving my feet on a couple shifts, and coach was trying to send a message," Purcell said. "So it's my own fault."
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...return/1196742

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10-14-2011, 03:44 PM
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Wait a second here, you mean to tell me that other coaches bench players and juggle their lines too? Amazing!

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10-14-2011, 04:02 PM
  #65
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Is there a fire JM website yet??

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10-14-2011, 04:22 PM
  #66
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Tired of Martin as coach. Really think we could be getting a lot more out of this team

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10-14-2011, 05:44 PM
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Tired of Martin as coach. Really think we could be getting a lot more out of this team
I got to say, one thing does bother me a little over time.. When the Habs have problems scoring after a game or so, he destroys the lines and when he's asked why he does that, he always replies that he tries to find a good combination or chemistry.. Ok I bought this story in his first season, but this is 90% the same team than last year up front. you had 82 games last season, the play-offs, training camp and you are still looking for chemistry? Maybe the problem isn't chemistry Martin.

How about keeping the lines intact for more than 3 games and seeing if you can work on OTHER aspects of the game like "break outs" maybe? "Positioning" tends to be something worth considering looking into. How about going to the net more? Strategy is something I've heard of that can make a difference in a game. How about letting the players learn to play with each other?? How about looking over some videos with some players and see where they can improve from mistakes they have done as a trio? How about working on a strategy as a line for the next game??? Isn't that better then slapping a new line up on the ice at practice and say, "Ok guys? let's see that chemistry?"

How's that for some strategy? Why is it they score 5 goals one game, score one the next and then musical chairs all over again? Every time I've played pick-up hockey, the 2 or three friends who know each other aren't always more talented than anyone else on the ice but they tend to score more. They seem to know where they will be on the ice better than the rest of us.. Coincidence? JM might not have enough time to play pick-up hockey.. He's probably too busy juggling his lines in his head on his spare time. But common, it's not rocket science, is it?

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10-14-2011, 06:15 PM
  #68
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Irrelevant. Palushaj is a better passer than Moen. So is Darche. So is anyone else on the team. Moen, while I like the guy on this team, has hands of stone and is not top 6 material.

Gill needs to retire. Honestly. If not retire, then JM needs to suit up 7 Dmen and let Gill play only on the PK. And let a young guy come up from Hamilton to get some experience. Cant do worse than Gill.

As a coach, it is your job to prepare your players.......rookies or not....and motivate your players. The random benching and line juggling and other Chinese fire drill routines Martin had the Habs doing last night was a dis-service to the rookies........and the veterans.

As another person said, establish two lines of Pleks, Cole, Kostitsyn and Gomez, Pacioretty, Gionta and let them develop chemistry without the threat of demotions and benchings. Then, get a third line of Eller, Palushaj and Darche and let them develop chemistry. And a fourth line with DD Moen and Engqvist.

Let them play together to develop chemistry. Martin does not understand chemistry. And it is to the detriment of this team, injuries or not. Injuries is an excuse. Teamwork can and will overcome injuries.......if they are allowed to play as a team and not moveable at will individual players.
Not in a million years.

We dont have 7D men since Spacek injury.


Because you dont understand something doesnt mean it's random.

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10-14-2011, 06:19 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Benching a player is something only a cold, impersonal coach does. A coach that players want to play for would never do something like this. Never.

No wonder you're such a big fan of Guy Boucher. His PHD (or whatever) in Sports Psychology gives him an edge in dealing with his players. He looks beyond the conventional "bench a struggling player" approach. This intangible makes Boucher such an upgrade over Jacques Martin. He would never sit down a 26 year old forward with tons of skill just because he made a few mistakes, or took a couple shifts off. Boucher knows that would crush the player's will and demotivate the entire team.

huh, the 2nd quote is about Boucher benching one of his own players...

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10-14-2011, 06:21 PM
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In this thread: People who think they know what Jacques Martin is doing and what he says to the players.

So much clueless-ness and exaggeration in one thread.

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10-14-2011, 06:59 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh, the 2nd quote is about Boucher benching one of his own players...
Your sarcasometer is on low.

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10-14-2011, 07:05 PM
  #72
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I got to say, one thing does bother me a little over time.. When the Habs have problems scoring after a game or so, he destroys the lines and when he's asked why he does that, he always replies that he tries to find a good combination or chemistry.. Ok I bought this story in his first season, but this is 90% the same team than last year up front. you had 82 games last season, the play-offs, training camp and you are still looking for chemistry? Maybe the problem isn't chemistry Martin.

How about keeping the lines intact for more than 3 games and seeing if you can work on OTHER aspects of the game like "break outs" maybe? "Positioning" tends to be something worth considering looking into. How about going to the net more? Strategy is something I've heard of that can make a difference in a game. How about letting the players learn to play with each other?? How about looking over some videos with some players and see where they can improve from mistakes they have done as a trio? How about working on a strategy as a line for the next game??? Isn't that better then slapping a new line up on the ice at practice and say, "Ok guys? let's see that chemistry?"

How's that for some strategy? Why is it they score 5 goals one game, score one the next and then musical chairs all over again? Every time I've played pick-up hockey, the 2 or three friends who know each other aren't always more talented than anyone else on the ice but they tend to score more. They seem to know where they will be on the ice better than the rest of us.. Coincidence? JM might not have enough time to play pick-up hockey.. He's probably too busy juggling his lines in his head on his spare time. But common, it's not rocket science, is it?

Do you honestly think a guy who's coached in the NHL for almost 30 years has never thought of looking at video, working on strategy, break outs, positioning talking to the players about scoring? Seriously do you really honeslty think he randomly puts lines together and hopes for the best and he's lasted this long doing that? Going to the net more? I can find you twenty videos of Martin saying the problem with Gomez last year was that he wasn't going to the net, playing the perimeter too much. Do you know what Martin's system is? It's ALL positioning. Puck support, reducing the gap between the forwards and D in our own zone to use our speed and transition game. Man the stuff you read sometimes. Seriously what happened to this place?

This is 3 games in.


Last edited by Jigger77: 10-15-2011 at 12:06 AM.
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10-14-2011, 07:08 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Benching a player is something only a cold, impersonal coach does. A coach that players want to play for would never do something like this. Never.

No wonder you're such a big fan of Guy Boucher. His PHD (or whatever) in Sports Psychology gives him an edge in dealing with his players. He looks beyond the conventional "bench a struggling player" approach. This intangible makes Boucher such an upgrade over Jacques Martin. He would never sit down a 26 year old forward with tons of skill just because he made a few mistakes, or took a couple shifts off. Boucher knows that would crush the player's will and demotivate the entire team.




http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...return/1196742

Dammit. You got me. I knew that I was taking a risk when I posted what I did regarding motivating players.

And then you threw the Boucher card at me. And not only you threw out Boucher, but the Teddy Purcell card as well. Damn.

Yep, that compares to Martin benching Kostitsyn and or Cole. Ole Teddy has been churning out an average of 5 goals per season for the five seasons in the NHL. Poor AK has only been averaging over 20 goals per and Cole is around 20 goals per season.

I love the KoolAid drinkers and their attempt at equivalence.

Now if Martin benches Darche, we can compare him to Boucher.


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Old
10-14-2011, 07:12 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
How undisciplined of Mathieu Darche to get hooked down and fall on another players leg causing him to fall, and being the only one who ends up with a penalty(Which led to the Flames comeback via PP goal).
He didn't get hooked and Darche's stick accidentally tripped the Flames guy. Unfortunate, but it was the right call.

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10-14-2011, 07:17 PM
  #75
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Everyday he's shuffling
Haha, that's perfect with your avatar

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