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Old
10-14-2011, 07:18 PM
  #76
LeMAD
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Martin is a good coach. This is the start of the season, we have a lot of injured players. A lot of our veterans are playing terrible hockey right now.

You guys are painful. And clueless about the game.

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10-14-2011, 07:21 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You have it backwards. The players are only as good as the coach and the system/situations he forces his players to play in.
That's considering the players are executing the system at 100%, and are themselves, pushing themselves to their max potential in that system/situation.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
If a player follows a weak or flawed system and does as told, whose fault is it if the results are not good? Player or coach?
If the player is doing as he's told, then the fault falls on the coach.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Pleks is doing what Martin tells him to do......play the point....and the team struggles because of that. Pleks fault for not being a DMan accustomed to playing point? Or Martin's for putting him in that position?
But Plek on the point is not the reason why the PP is struggling. It's never because of one guy that your special teams struggle. Not to mention, there's two different units.
Also, I'm not sure Martin is in charge of the PP. It used to be Muller, so maybe Randy is now in charge of it.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Moen is not a top 6 winger and does not have great passing abilities or shooting touch. So he is playing on a line with two talented forwards who need great passes to and someone to receive passes from. Not happening with Moen on that line. Whose fault is it? Moen for being less talented than his line mates? His linemates who are not getting the feeds? Or Martin for putting Moen and his linemates in that postion?
But you're assuming Martin decided to place Moen on that line in order to pass and score. I doubt that's what he was going for. I believe he simply wants a big body presence.
Even if that's the reasoning though, it's a pretty darn stupid one imo. Meanwhile, you call up a skilled forward from Hamilton to play the 4th line role. Doesn't make any sense to me, and yes, they are poor decisions.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Hockey is a team game. Lines have to click together to have synergy and success. When a center has a varying number of different forwards over 3 periods and the CHEMISTRY is not there between the linemates, whose fault is it? The forwards for playing with random players? Or the coach who is juggling the lines constantly.
Chemistry sometimes takes time. There's also nothing wrong in juggling lines. Bowman used to do it as much as anybody else. Chemistry can also disappear. Kovalev-Plek-AK were on fire one season, the next year they were crap.
The coach can be blamed for stubbornly sticking to certain lines, despite them clearly not working. Like putting Moen or Darche on top lines when you have skilled forwards on lower lines. Or placing Darche ahead of newly signed 18M man in Cole.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
When Gill is so slow that forwards from the other team are skating past him and he is constantly out of position and when his skill level has dropped to the point where he is always turning over the puck, whose fault is that? Gill's for getting old and slow? Or Martin for giving him too much ice time in situations other than penalty kills?
Gill hasn't been used much, and we have two rookies coming from Europe, another one with only 58 NHL games, and one in his sophomore year. We have two veterans on D, one of which is Gill. You also have to work with what you have. Martin can't make Gill play for 12min, but he's already made changes and moved him away from PK at least.
PK and Gorges are now together, which is the correct move imo. Put your best together.
I also believe Pearn is in charge of the Dmen. He was last year.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Subban is running around on the PP and trying to do too much because he knows Pleks is on the other point. Subban is running around because he knows Gill cannot keep up. Subban is making mistakes. Whose fault is that? Subban's for trying to do too much on the ice or Martin's for putting him in those two unwinnable positions?
PK was doing all the same wrong things last year too, it has nothing to do with playing with Plek on the point or Gill. You don't like Martin, even natural water isn't clearer than that. But you're blaming Martin for every little mistake. Don't over do it. There's plenty of things you can criticize him on, but blaming him because PK decided to pinch in at the wrong time or go further than the ash marks when there's two guys behind him is really ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The simple route is to merely blame the players for performance. However, when you break down what happened last night, the blame falls squarely on the drooped shoulders of ONE TIMER Martin. Contrary to what a lot of people believe, coaching DOES matter.
I don't know what league you've been watching but I've been watching the one where the average length of a coaching job is 2years. Coaches are always blamed and take a lot more heat than players.
As for last night, didn't you say you switched station to watch the MLB.
You can argue the team wasn't well prepared, I'd tend to agree. But the guys Martin needs to spend more time on, the young ones like Eller, DD, MaxPac, Weber, Emelin, Diaz, have all played fairly well. It's the veterans that look like crap (Plekanec and Moen aside). Maybe the leeway Martin has been giving to them over the years is catching up to him.


Last edited by Kriss E: 10-14-2011 at 11:35 PM.
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Old
10-14-2011, 07:25 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Martin is a good coach. This is the start of the season, we have a lot of injured players. A lot of our veterans are playing terrible hockey right now.

You guys are painful. And clueless about the game.
He may be a good Coach, but not for this team. His defensive style isn't right for the mix of players Montreal has.

Besides, this is Montreal & he's got no pizzazz! Those press talks he gives are useless, uninformative & a waste of all our time.

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10-14-2011, 07:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
Same stuff every year from these boards lol

Regular season = hes a clueless idiot, fire him right now.
Playoffs = Defensive genius, perfect fit for this team.
Sorry, wrong. He's an idiot period. People wanted experience, someone who wouldn't do what the "inexperienced Carbo" did. They got an "experienced Martin" who does exactly the same. Just tough to admit, that's all.

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10-14-2011, 08:01 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Dammit. You got me. I knew that I was taking a risk when I posted what I did regarding motivating players.

And then you threw the Boucher card at me. And not only you threw out Boucher, but the Teddy Purcell card as well. Damn.

Yep, that compares to Martin benching Kostitsyn and or Cole. Ole Teddy has been churning out an average of 5 goals per season for the five seasons in the NHL. Poor AK has only been averaging over 20 goals per and Cole is around 20 goals per season.

I love the KoolAid drinkers and their attempt at equivalence.

Now if Martin benches Darche, we can compare him to Boucher.

I was being facetious, but Purcell's season last year would be Kostitsyn's second best career season (and is only two points off of AKost's career high). He's a bit of a late bloomer due to injuries and not getting a chance in LA, but he's streaky player with offensive upside. The gap between Purcell and AKost is nowhere near as big as you're implying. Purcell also had 3 points in 3 games before last night and got benched because he took a couple shifts off. That's much harsher than anything we've seen Martin do this season.

As for the "benching" of Cole and AKost... The only wingers who have averaged more ice time than them are Gionta and Pacioretty. Considering that neither Cole nor AKost has any significant time on the PK, both guys are getting those minutes in ES and PP situations. That is the definition of top six winger ice-time.

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10-14-2011, 08:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Dammit. You got me. I knew that I was taking a risk when I posted what I did regarding motivating players.

And then you threw the Boucher card at me. And not only you threw out Boucher, but the Teddy Purcell card as well. Damn.

Yep, that compares to Martin benching Kostitsyn and or Cole. Ole Teddy has been churning out an average of 5 goals per season for the five seasons in the NHL. Poor AK has only been averaging over 20 goals per and Cole is around 20 goals per season.

I love the KoolAid drinkers and their attempt at equivalence.

Now if Martin benches Darche, we can compare him to Boucher.

You mean the Purcell who got 51 pts last season ? and close to a PPG in last season PO ?

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10-14-2011, 08:17 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Sorry, wrong. He's an idiot period. People wanted experience, someone who wouldn't do what the "inexperienced Carbo" did. They got an "experienced Martin" who does exactly the same. Just tough to admit, that's all.
But what is "exactly the same" ?
Define what's wrong for you.

(As far as i know, Carbonneau did only coach in Montreal, for 3 seasons, while Martin did won the Jack-Adams and is around the NHL since 1986 as an HC. So the difference between the two may be real...)


We were supposed to start the season without our best defenseman, with the addition of two rookies at the blue line.
Its quite difficult.
But after 3 games, and 3 players out because of an injury, its very difficult.
It seems understandable to try to find a solution with some moves that could be considered as "odd".

I dont agree with everything that Martin and his staff made over the last week, but we did play 3 games only. With, possibly, the less experienced defensive squad of the entire league.

Moen on the 1st line ? He's the only player reliable enough to play against the quality of competition that Plekanec face on a consistent basis.
What if you want to lower down that level ? It means that somebody else is going to play against some of that competition, and mathematically, its obvious that one of Weber/Diaz/Emelin is going to be asked to do a lot of work...

Desharnais is tested in a new role ? Well, usually, people here are crying because the young players did not have a real chance to show what they can do. Now, that they cant say this anymore, we create a new problem to talk about...

Its much better to try new things right now rather than in January or March. But dont forget that we're kinda forced to try new things.

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Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
He may be a good Coach, but not for this team. His defensive style isn't right for the mix of players Montreal has.
Yeah, after all, our teams is full of pure offensive talent...
Your best player and your captain are two-way players, and i cant wait to see what an offensive system can do with such an unexperienced defensive unit. You're going to see goals, but not really the way you like them.

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Old
10-14-2011, 08:56 PM
  #83
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How many people actually believe that we could win the Cup with Martin as our coach?

And don't give me the answer that we don't have the horses to compete, because when healthy and with Price, I believe that although we are on the bubble, lesser/equally talented teams have won it all over the last 30 years.

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10-14-2011, 09:08 PM
  #84
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the simplest reason for the slow start is exactly what I said during the off-season. We just aren't very good. We let go of our most productive dman without so much as a phone call, and did nothing to replace him. I'm not sure what anybody expected. This team got worse over the off-season and we weren't that good to begin with. Markov's return is likely going to disappoint too. The guy has barely played hockey in the last 2 years, so realistically what impact will he have? Sure it will be a positive impact but it is expecting way too much to think he will be the same player he once was.

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10-14-2011, 10:30 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
the simplest reason for the slow start is exactly what I said during the off-season. We just aren't very good. We let go of our most productive dman without so much as a phone call, and did nothing to replace him. I'm not sure what anybody expected. This team got worse over the off-season and we weren't that good to begin with. Markov's return is likely going to disappoint too. The guy has barely played hockey in the last 2 years, so realistically what impact will he have? Sure it will be a positive impact but it is expecting way too much to think he will be the same player he once was.
Were we better with the team we iced at the start of last season?

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10-14-2011, 10:35 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Benching a player is something only a cold, impersonal coach does. A coach that players want to play for would never do something like this. Never.

No wonder you're such a big fan of Guy Boucher. His PHD (or whatever) in Sports Psychology gives him an edge in dealing with his players. He looks beyond the conventional "bench a struggling player" approach. This intangible makes Boucher such an upgrade over Jacques Martin. He would never sit down a 26 year old forward with tons of skill just because he made a few mistakes, or took a couple shifts off. Boucher knows that would crush the player's will and demotivate the entire team.




http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...return/1196742
The same Guy Boucher who benched PK Subban in the AHL?

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10-14-2011, 10:38 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Were we better with the team we iced at the start of last season?
The Markov gamble hurts, and the Campoli injury was also bad luck. Starting 3 rookie Defense men in the NHL in year 2011, is not E-Z! That's almost expansion team D.

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10-14-2011, 10:58 PM
  #88
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But what is "exactly the same" ?
Define what's wrong for you.
For one thing, what worked pre-lockout might not work post-lockout so let's stop with the fact that he rode the tailcoat of a highly talented group in Ottawa and let's look at what he's done since the lockout.

Exactly the same... Here are just a few things that people were blaming Carbonneau for and Martin does just the same:
  • Preaching hard work
  • Putting 4th line players on the top 6
  • Mixing up his lines too much
  • Putting 3-4 line players on the PP, including Darche
  • Using defensemen as forwards
  • Poor communication
  • Being too defensive and not giving enough freedom to his top offensive players

That's just a few...

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10-14-2011, 11:08 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
For one thing, what worked pre-lockout might not work post-lockout so let's stop with the fact that he rode the tailcoat of a highly talented group in Ottawa and let's look at what he's done since the lockout.

Exactly the same... Here are just a few things that people were blaming Carbonneau for and Martin does just the same:
  • Preaching hard work
  • Putting 4th line players on the top 6
  • Mixing up his lines too much
  • Putting 3-4 line players on the PP, including Darche
  • Using defensemen as forwards
  • Poor communication
  • Being too defensive and not giving enough freedom to his top offensive players

That's just a few...
you can find a relation between all coaches for the first 4 points.
Point 5: blameworthy?
Point 6 is speculation, fueled by ex players who got the boot. i'm sure its not perfect but i doubt its poor though.
Last point is just the system. IMHO when all players abide by it, it's quite successive, if you have the right players. But i can understand why it would be blamed, not everyone likes or even see the system martin preaches.

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10-14-2011, 11:15 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
you can find a relation between all coaches for the first 4 points.
Point 5: blameworthy?
Point 6 is speculation, fueled by ex players who got the boot. i'm sure its not perfect but i doubt its poor though.
Last point is just the system. IMHO when all players abide by it, it's quite successive, if you have the right players. But i can understand why it would be blamed, not everyone likes or even see the system martin preaches.
You didn't understand. People were blaming Carbonneau, saying he didn't have enough experience, justifying that he wasn't a good coach, using those exact analogies. I'm just repeating them here. Whether they're valid or not is another story.

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10-14-2011, 11:22 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
You didn't understand. People were blaming Carbonneau, saying he didn't have enough experience, justifying that he wasn't a good coach, using those exact analogies. I'm just repeating them here. Whether they're valid or not is another story.
makes sense, most coaches are blamed for some (or all) of the things you listed all the time.

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10-15-2011, 12:25 AM
  #92
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The reason why the start of the season is going pretty bad is mostly the defense. It’s not worthy of a playoff team. There are two rookies from Europe and one d-man at his second year. Two regular d-men are gone to injuries. One d-men is a big slow one dimensional player. One guy is coming back from a serious knee operation. This smells expansion team. The savior, Markov, well?

The team let go its most productive d-man. Hamrlik was a pretty solid guy who averaged 20 minutes a game. He was not offensive but he was there doing the right plays and not fragile. His loss is big. They let go Wiz and Columbus gave him the sky. For 4.5 million cap hit though, Wiz would have easily stayed. He would have easily replaced Markov. The team was doing fine without Markov in the first place for the past two seasons, so why sign him knowing that this player will never be the same. He is getting older and has only played 6 or 10 games the past two years. What impact can he bring when the thought of re-injuring that knee again will cross his mind?

The coach is making this team regress too. Year by year, he is slowly implementing a defensive system that is making this team lose its spike. The first year under Martin, the team reached the Conference Finals with a solid defensive system. This was rather an anomaly. The second year, they were one of the worst teams in goals scored. This year they look boring at the image of the coach. They didn't get tougher. They claim an injured Betts and return him back. That was panic mode. Also, what good is it to sign a guy like Cole,”a power forward lol”, if you don't play him?

Apparently now, Cole is not a savior, something I already knew. I wonder where is this savior?

Anyways, its the start of the season. Once everybody is back from injury things will get better.

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10-15-2011, 02:52 AM
  #93
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I can't say I like JM as a coach, but to say that he promotes a boring defensive style at the detriment of the offense is not reflected by his stats as a coach in the NHL. It is true that is style of coaching was very defensive minded in Florida, but he was simply playing with the cards that was dealt to him by the Panthers management. In Ottawa, his team finished, between 1998 and 2004, consistently in the top 5 or top 10 offensive teams in the NHL. In Ottawa, JM was mostly criticized for his issues with the younger players (like Spezza) and his inability to go far in the playoffs.

I really don't like how JM juggles the lines all the time, but I don't remember him doing such line juggling excesses in Ottawa. In Montreal, he seems to be having problems in completing his lines with a third player. Basically Gionta/Gomez and Cammy/Pleks have been pretty steady linemates, barring injuries. He just can't complete these two lines, and in the process he messes with the chemistry of the 3rd and 4th lines by endlessly promoting players from the bottom 6 to the top 6 and then demoting them back to the bottom 6.

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10-15-2011, 03:13 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
The Markov gamble hurts, and the Campoli injury was also bad luck. Starting 3 rookie Defense men in the NHL in year 2011, is not E-Z! That's almost expansion team D.
precisely :
3 rookies
1 sophomore
1 back from a injury that made him miss half of last season


not almost, IT IS expansion team D... we probably have the least experienced D corp in the league...

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10-15-2011, 09:01 AM
  #95
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I'm not a big fan of Martin's coaching but I don't think he is a horrible coach either. The one thing I would like to see him do, especially with his forward lines, is try to put together come complementary skill sets and stick with it for a while.

For example, give Gomez-Pacioretty-Gionta at least ten games together before making a decision. It isn't going to work every game but over time the chemistry should improve and we should finally have a cohesive line.

Do the same for all three top lines. And if one guy goes down, like Cammalleri, don't screw up the other two lines to find the magic formula. If that meant calling up and sticking Palushaj with Pleks and Cole or with Pleks and Kostistsyn, that is then at least the other guys haven't been disrupted so much.

It's not like it would affect our scoring in a negative way. And it would only be a short term solution until Cammalleri returned.

I would still like to see the line of Eller, Kostitsyn and Desharnais back together but if not that, then Eller, Cole and Desharnais.

It's a long season and allowing these three man units to develop together over the course of the season could pay dividends for everyone at the end.

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10-15-2011, 10:26 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
The reason why the start of the season is going pretty bad is mostly the defense. Its not worthy of a playoff team. There are two rookies from Europe and one d-man at his second year. Two regular d-men are gone to injuries. One d-men is a big slow one dimensional player. One guy is coming back from a serious knee operation. This smells expansion team. The savior, Markov, well?

The team let go its most productive d-man. Hamrlik was a pretty solid guy who averaged 20 minutes a game. He was not offensive but he was there doing the right plays and not fragile. His loss is big. They let go Wiz and Columbus gave him the sky. For 4.5 million cap hit though, Wiz would have easily stayed. He would have easily replaced Markov. The team was doing fine without Markov in the first place for the past two seasons, so why sign him knowing that this player will never be the same. He is getting older and has only played 6 or 10 games the past two years. What impact can he bring when the thought of re-injuring that knee again will cross his mind?

The coach is making this team regress too. Year by year, he is slowly implementing a defensive system that is making this team lose its spike. The first year under Martin, the team reached the Conference Finals with a solid defensive system. This was rather an anomaly. The second year, they were one of the worst teams in goals scored. This year they look boring at the image of the coach. They didn't get tougher. They claim an injured Betts and return him back. That was panic mode. Also, what good is it to sign a guy like Cole,a power forward lol, if you don't play him?

Apparently now, Cole is not a savior, something I already knew. I wonder where is this savior?

Anyways, its the start of the season. Once everybody is back from injury things will get better.
Very good post.

If I had the desire, I could pull up the threads regarding our signing of Cole. He was the missing link according to many on this forum.

I was even happy to see an attempt to make this team better. It shows the level of frustration by the fans of the Habs to want a team that can get back to being a dominant team.

Some of us here are vocal about that desire to see excellence returned to Montreal. And we get flack for it. I can guarantee that a lot of people who do not express their frustration with PG and JM and the Molsons feel and think it none the less.

This franchise needs a good cleansing starting from PG down to some of the players who should not be wearing the Bleu Blanc Rouge that used to stand for excellence.

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10-15-2011, 10:35 AM
  #97
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No he doesn't.

Gauthier doesn't have one either.

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10-15-2011, 10:51 AM
  #98
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Man, the drama on here is crazy...at least when PG retires, one of you guys will be able to apply for the job, and hire your own coach...

Can't imagine why alot of the old guard, quality posters have disappeared...

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10-15-2011, 11:26 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Martin is a good coach. This is the start of the season, we have a lot of injured players. A lot of our veterans are playing terrible hockey right now.

You guys are painful. And clueless about the game.
Really? Clueless?

We have a small team who frequently gets beat in the corners and on the boards.

Yet we employ a style of fore-check that requires dumping it into the corners and fighting for it.

Yet we employ a style of defence that makes it easy for teams to gain our zone and go into the corners with us.

Tell me why we are employing styles in all three zones that is not playing to the strength of the team?

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10-15-2011, 12:21 PM
  #100
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Country: Canada
Posts: 5,940
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habspinner View Post
How many people actually believe that we could win the Cup with Martin as our coach?

And don't give me the answer that we don't have the horses to compete, because when healthy and with Price, I believe that although we are on the bubble, lesser/equally talented teams have won it all over the last 30 years.
Well, we took the Cup champs to within 1 goal of elimination. Why is it so far fetched to think that we could have won the Cup with Martin? That was last year though. We lost Wiz and Hamrlik and replaced them with two guys who had a combined 0 games experience in the NHL. Wiz was what 5th-6th in scoring for defensemen in the LEAGUE last year? We tried to patch those gaping holes with a guy like Camper who'd be a 4-5 on many teams and he goes down in the first game. What do you expect? For Emelin to get 35 points and be a +6 like Hammer did? For Diaz to man the PP and be in the top ten in the NHL in points like Wiz did? And I love Gorges and his heart as much as the next guy. But he's neither of those players either.

And not to mention we have Palushaj and Enquvist both on the team when realistically they should be in Hamilton.

This is JM's fault? Seems like it worked real well when he had the players to do it.


Last edited by Jigger77: 10-15-2011 at 01:09 PM.
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