3 goals and an assist tonight, 3 goals and 3 assists for 6 points in the Phantoms' first 2 games... Yeah, I'd say he looks impressive.
Honestly, at this point, I'm willing to give Hartnell about 1 more game to show me something (besides taking stupid penalties) before I'd ship him out and bring Schenn up.
Several teams would likely be willing to give up something of value to get Hartnell (a pick, a prospect, etc.). And as a bonus, if we get rid of Hartnell now, we can bank some cap space that could allow us to make a much bigger acquisition at the trade deadline (should a guy like Parise, Doan, Suter, Iginla etc. be made available).
3 goals and an assist tonight, 3 goals and 3 assists for 6 points in the Phantoms' first 2 games... Yeah, I'd say he looks impressive.
Honestly, at this point, I'm willing to give Hartnell about 1 more game to show me something (besides taking stupid penalties) before I'd ship him out and bring Schenn up.
Several teams would likely be willing to give up something of value to get Hartnell (a pick, a prospect, etc.). And as a bonus, if we get rid of Hartnell now, we can bank some cap space that could allow us to make a much bigger acquisition at the trade deadline (should a guy like Parise, Doan, Suter, Iginla etc. be made available).
Any one of those players would be simply amazing on this team. But lets not get ahead of ourselves
3 goals and an assist tonight, 3 goals and 3 assists for 6 points in the Phantoms' first 2 games... Yeah, I'd say he looks impressive.
Honestly, at this point, I'm willing to give Hartnell about 1 more game to show me something (besides taking stupid penalties) before I'd ship him out and bring Schenn up.
Several teams would likely be willing to give up something of value to get Hartnell (a pick, a prospect, etc.). And as a bonus, if we get rid of Hartnell now, we can bank some cap space that could allow us to make a much bigger acquisition at the trade deadline (should a guy like Parise, Doan, Suter, Iginla etc. be made available).
What are the Flyers going to give up to obtain any of those players at the deadline?
Any one of those players would be simply amazing on this team. But lets not get ahead of ourselves
Not trying to get ahead of ourselves, I'm just saying:
#1: I think we are going to make the playoffs this team (we might not be a top seed, but let's face it... we're going to make it, and therefore we could use a trade deadline acquisition)
#2: There will be some good players on the trading block this season
#3: We are in a decent position with young prospects / draft picks to make an acquisition of one of those good players.
#4: If we get rid of Scott Hartnell and waive (or send down) Shelley and/or Walker, we'll have more than enough room come deadline time for whatever we want / can get.
Homer needs to always be looking ahead. At this point, I'm not really sure if Hartnell is an asset to this team, especially when he is potentially holding Schenn back and Schenn is showing all signs of dominance @ the AHL level (if you're scoring 2 PPG, there's not much else you can learn down there). Now I realize it's early in the season and maybe Hartnell will improve and maybe Schenn will cool off, but fortune favors the bold, and the sooner we ship Hartnell out, the more we get for him and the more cap space we can bank. Also, I watched Schenn play, and at times it looks like he's just toying w/ his competition... he needs to be up with the big club like yesterday.
What are the Flyers going to give up to obtain any of those players at the deadline?
For Parise or Suter, a package of picks and MAYBE a player like Voracek (for Parise). They are both impending UFAs and their respective clubs are going to have a tough time re-signing them, so their value isn't exactly at its highest.
Suter might be a little unrealistic for the deadline, as his team will likely be in playoff contention, but he is certainly an off-season target. Parise is a totally realistic target, as his team seems poised to miss the playoffs.
For a player like Iginla, you might need to give up a little more (since he has 2 years left on his deal), or maybe less (given his age), it really depends on the market.
A player like Doan should be readily available for cheap since his team probably won't be making the playoffs, he's a UFA after this year, he's older, and he's never won a cup.
Keep Hartnell till towards the end of the trade year just in case.
You might use him or someone else to grab Alfredson at the end of the year, solid 2 way player who will be going all out for his last chance to win a cup, while keeping him from your competition.
I doubt Hartnell would waive his no trade clause for a rebuilding team though.
For Parise or Suter, a package of picks and MAYBE a player like Voracek (for Parise). They are both impending UFAs and their respective clubs are going to have a tough time re-signing them, so their value isn't exactly at its highest.
Suter might be a little unrealistic for the deadline, as his team will likely be in playoff contention, but he is certainly an off-season target. Parise is a totally realistic target, as his team seems poised to miss the playoffs.
For a player like Iginla, you might need to give up a little more (since he has 2 years left on his deal), or maybe less (given his age), it really depends on the market.
A player like Doan should be readily available for cheap since his team probably won't be making the playoffs, he's a UFA after this year, he's older, and he's never won a cup.
Voracek is going to be a RFA, not a UFA. Big difference. In my opinion the Flyers need to be very careful about giving up first round draft picks. Although I would trade Voracek and a 1st round pick for Parise in a second. But what are Parise's intentions. Is he intent on testing the market? I can't make that deal for a rental.
Suter will be tough, and so will Iginla. Doan will not come cheap. Team's positioning for the playoffs will be interested in a player like Doan, and his intangibles. That will drive up the price. Players like that are always overpaid at the dreadline.
I want to Flyers to chart a course and stay the course. They have a good thing going. Avoid trading young players and draft picks that leaves the team devoid of prospects and assets.
Voracek is going to be a RFA, not a UFA. Big difference. In my opinion the Flyers need to be very careful about giving up first round draft picks. Although I would trade Voracek and a 1st round pick for Parise in a second. But what are Parise's intentions. Is he intent on testing the market? I can't make that deal for a rental.
Suter will be tough, and so will Iginla. Doan will not come cheap. Team's positioning for the playoffs will be interested in a player like Doan, and his intangibles. That will drive up the price. Players like that are always overpaid at the dreadline.
I want to Flyers to chart a course and stay the course. They have a good thing going. Avoid trading young players and draft picks that leaves the team devoid of prospects and assets.
Honestly, I just saw a trade proposal in the trade rumors and free agent talk section that just might make more sense than any I've ever seen in there before...
Hartnell & Carle to Nashville for Ryan Suter.
It was proposed as a deadline deal, but to me it seems like a trade that could happen tomorrow. Maybe a pick or two needs to be thrown in (from the Flyers to the Preds) to balance the deal since the Preds are giving up the best player, but it solves both teams' major issues.
The Flyers really need a young stud defenseman who can take over for Timonen in another year or two, and we're not going to get that from our prospects. Suter would really fill that void. Additionally, the Flyers could really use Hartnell off the roster, so Schenn has room to be called up.
The Preds really need a gritty forward who can bring some offense to an offensively-challenged team. Hartnell fits that bill perfectly. He is good for 45-60 points a year and would've been 2nd on the Preds in points last year. Also, since Hartnell loves Nashville and originally played there, he would no doubt waive that NTC. The Preds would also pick up a top-4 defenseman to fill the void left by Suter.
Basically, both teams would be trading from their strength (for the Flyers, they have a surplus of top-6 forwards) (for the Preds, they have a surplus of good, young defensemen) and would be addressing a huge weakness on their team (for the Flyers, they lack a talented, young defenseman) (for the Predators, they lack/need a gritty forward who can provide some offense and some powerplay time).
I honestly think a trade like this would make both teams better right away, for this season and would also make them better in the future.
Honestly, I just saw a trade proposal in the trade rumors and free agent talk section that just might make more sense than any I've ever seen in there before...
Hartnell & Carle to Nashville for Ryan Suter.
It was proposed as a deadline deal, but to me it seems like a trade that could happen tomorrow. Maybe a pick or two needs to be thrown in (from the Flyers to the Preds) to balance the deal since the Preds are giving up the best player, but it solves both teams' major issues.
The Flyers really need a young stud defenseman who can take over for Timonen in another year or two, and we're not going to get that from our prospects. Suter would really fill that void. Additionally, the Flyers could really use Hartnell off the roster, so Schenn has room to be called up.
The Preds really need a gritty forward who can bring some offense to an offensively-challenged team. Hartnell fits that bill perfectly. He is good for 45-60 points a year and would've been 2nd on the Preds in points last year. Also, since Hartnell loves Nashville and originally played there, he would no doubt waive that NTC. The Preds would also pick up a top-4 defenseman to fill the void left by Suter.
Basically, both teams would be trading from their strength (for the Flyers, they have a surplus of top-6 forwards) (for the Preds, they have a surplus of good, young defensemen) and would be addressing a huge weakness on their team (for the Flyers, they lack a talented, young defenseman) (for the Predators, they lack/need a gritty forward who can provide some offense and some powerplay time).
I honestly think a trade like this would make both teams better right away, for this season and would also make them better in the future.
Both Suter and Carle are impending UFA's. Makes it kind of iffy for both sides.
Both Suter and Carle are impending UFA's. Makes it kind of iffy for both sides.
Don't understand that comment...
It makes both teams better for this year.
As far as the future, nobody knows what that holds. The future for Carle and Suter is "iffy" no matter what happens. There's no guarantee Carle re-signs here, just like there's no guarantee he re-signs if he is in Nashville. Same goes w/ Suter. Making a trade doesn't make the situation "iffier"...
The fact that they're UFAs really has no bearing IMO, except that it makes the Preds even more likely to deal Suter.
If you're the Preds and you can get a top-6 forward signed for both this year and next year and a top-4 defenseman who is soon to be a UFA (whose salary might just fit into your future budget) in exchange for a soon to be UFA top pairing defenseman (who you might not even have room in your budget to sign), you do it.
And if you're the Flyers and you can improve your defense for this year and you have a chance (if he re-signs) of landing your stud lock-down defenseman to replace Timonen, all while opening up a roster spot for Brayden Schenn, you do it.
I don't know why uncertainty about the future (which both teams are already facing w/ their given players) would complicate the deal...
Honestly, I just saw a trade proposal in the trade rumors and free agent talk section that just might make more sense than any I've ever seen in there before...
Hartnell & Carle to Nashville for Ryan Suter.
It was proposed as a deadline deal, but to me it seems like a trade that could happen tomorrow. Maybe a pick or two needs to be thrown in (from the Flyers to the Preds) to balance the deal since the Preds are giving up the best player, but it solves both teams' major issues.
The Flyers really need a young stud defenseman who can take over for Timonen in another year or two, and we're not going to get that from our prospects. Suter would really fill that void. Additionally, the Flyers could really use Hartnell off the roster, so Schenn has room to be called up.
The Preds really need a gritty forward who can bring some offense to an offensively-challenged team. Hartnell fits that bill perfectly. He is good for 45-60 points a year and would've been 2nd on the Preds in points last year. Also, since Hartnell loves Nashville and originally played there, he would no doubt waive that NTC. The Preds would also pick up a top-4 defenseman to fill the void left by Suter.
Basically, both teams would be trading from their strength (for the Flyers, they have a surplus of top-6 forwards) (for the Preds, they have a surplus of good, young defensemen) and would be addressing a huge weakness on their team (for the Flyers, they lack a talented, young defenseman) (for the Predators, they lack/need a gritty forward who can provide some offense and some powerplay time).
I honestly think a trade like this would make both teams better right away, for this season and would also make them better in the future.
why would the Preds give up the best (top 3) d man for a 2nd line winger, a UFA dman. It would take Schenn/Coutiere, Hartnell, and Carle.
why is everyone ready to move Hartnell after 3 games? The Flyers goal this offseason was to get bigger and tougher to play against. they did that by getting Simmonds but moving Hartnell puts them right back where they were needing another PF type. God forbid they have two PF that are a pain in the ass to play against and can put the puck in the net.
If they move Hartnell they will be stuck at the deadline trying to replace what he brings during the playoffs by giving up a 2nd for guys like Torres, Antropov, Winchester.
Hartnell is over paid but so are all the PF that were FAs when Hartnell's contract came up (Penner, Horton, etc). Bottom line he puts up @ 24 goals a season playing with out a playmaking center for the most part (Carter).
20-year-old rookie talent Brayden Schenn dazzled with the teams first hat trick of the season and the Adirondack Phantoms powered their way to an impressive 6-3 victory over the Bridgeport Sound Tigers to improve to 2-0-0 on the young season. The victory extended the Phantoms streak of consecutive wins at home to nine straight dating back to last year.
With his first-career hat trick plus an assist, Schenn has three goals and three assists in his first two games as a Phantom. The former first-round draft selection of the Kings has 13 points in nine professional games overall, and has shown in the seasons early going why hes regarded as one of the brightest prospects in professional hockey.
As far as the future, nobody knows what that holds. The future for Carle and Suter is "iffy" no matter what happens. There's no guarantee Carle re-signs here, just like there's no guarantee he re-signs if he is in Nashville. Same goes w/ Suter. Making a trade doesn't make the situation "iffier"...
The fact that they're UFAs really has no bearing IMO, except that it makes the Preds even more likely to deal Suter.
If you're the Preds and you can get a top-6 forward signed for both this year and next year and a top-4 defenseman who is soon to be a UFA (whose salary might just fit into your future budget) in exchange for a soon to be UFA top pairing defenseman (who you might not even have room in your budget to sign), you do it.
And if you're the Flyers and you can improve your defense for this year and you have a chance (if he re-signs) of landing your stud lock-down defenseman to replace Timonen, all while opening up a roster spot for Brayden Schenn, you do it.
I don't know why uncertainty about the future (which both teams are already facing w/ their given players) would complicate the deal...
Being UFA's has no bearing? Seriously? Obviously the Flyers already have the potential to lose Carle to Free Agency. But their also including Hartnell in the deal. With Suter an impending UFA, they risk including Hartnell and getting nothing in return after this year. That makes it a risky deal. You don't think that complicates the deal? What kind of deal do you think Suter is going to be looking for?
So if all 3 players were signed past this year, that wouldn't make the deal less complicated? The threat of Suter walking after this year is real. That throws an obvious wrench into that deal. Same for Nashville with Carle on their side.
Being UFA's has no bearing? Seriously? Obviously the Flyers already have the potential to lose Carle to Free Agency. But their also including Hartnell in the deal. With Suter an impending UFA, they risk including Hartnell and getting nothing in return after this year. That makes it a risky deal. You don't think that complicates the deal? What kind of deal do you think Suter is going to be looking for?
So if all 3 players were signed past this year, that wouldn't make the deal less complicated? The threat of Suter walking after this year is real. That throws an obvious wrench into that deal. Same for Nashville with Carle on their side.
In my humble opinion, it really doesn't throw an obvious wrench into the deal because each team is already facing a UFA situation. If you do nothing, you're still in a risky situation... the Preds could very well lose Suter for nothing and the Flyers could very well lose Carle for nothing. If you make the trade, then the Flyers could very well lose Suter for nothing and the Preds could very well lose Carle for nothing.
My point is that nothing changes if you make the deal or don't make the deal as far as uncertainty about the future. You're going to have one of your key defensemen going into unrestricted free agency either way.
What the teams need to do when evaluating a trade like this is to ask:
a. does it make us a better team this year?
b. does it have the potential to make us better for the future?
The answer to the question for both teams is yes.
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To answer your question, yes, obviously the deal is less complicated if everyone is on a long-term deal. So if you were trying to argue that this deal is more complicated than a normal trade of 2 players on 2-3 year deals, then I agree. But since both teams are already facing their defensemen hitting UFA status this offseason, I don't think a trade complicates the situation. It's already complicated, even if both teams don't make a move.
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And if this trade were to be made, it would give the Preds a little more certainty about their future, as they get a top-6 forward who can play on the PP and he's locked in for the next 2 years.
The Flyers give up the certainty of Hartnell because:
a. They have someone waiting in the wings (Schenn) who can take over for Hartnell and Hartnell seems the most logical guy to lose his spot.
b. The trade has the potential to payoff big time with the Flyers acquiring one of the best young defensemen in the NHL and a future replacement for Kimmo Timonen.
In my humble opinion, it really doesn't throw an obvious wrench into the deal because each team is already facing a UFA situation. If you do nothing, you're still in a risky situation... the Preds could very well lose Suter for nothing and the Flyers could very well lose Carle for nothing. If you make the trade, then the Flyers could very well lose Suter for nothing and the Preds could very well lose Carle for nothing.
My point is that nothing changes if you make the deal or don't make the deal as far as uncertainty about the future. You're going to have one of your key defensemen going into unrestricted free agency either way.
What the teams need to do when evaluating a trade like this is to ask:
a. does it make us a better team this year?
b. does it have the potential to make us better for the future?
The answer to the question for both teams is yes.
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To answer your question, yes, obviously the deal is less complicated if everyone is on a long-term deal. So if you were trying to argue that this deal is more complicated than a normal trade of 2 players on 2-3 year deals, then I agree. But since both teams are already facing their defensemen hitting UFA status this offseason, I don't think a trade complicates the situation. It's already complicated, even if both teams don't make a move.
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And if this trade were to be made, it would give the Preds a little more certainty about their future, as they get a top-6 forward who can play on the PP and he's locked in for the next 2 years.
The Flyers give up the certainty of Hartnell because:
a. They have someone waiting in the wings (Schenn) who can take over for Hartnell and Hartnell seems the most logical guy to lose his spot.
b. The trade has the potential to payoff big time with the Flyers acquiring one of the best young defensemen in the NHL and a future replacement for Kimmo Timonen.
The Flyers aren't facing a UFA situation after this year with Hartnell. I don't understand the logic of being willing to potentially give up one asset, Hartnell, because you have another player waiting to take his place. An asset is an asset.
If the Flyers can obtain Suter and reup him to a new deal, I'd be all for it. But they also can wait and try to sign Suter as a UFA and not give up anything but money and Cap space.
There is risk to the Flyers in that deal. You can't escape that. Hartnell has value.
Both Suter and Carle are impending UFA's. Makes it kind of iffy for both sides.
And why on earth would you trade hartnell as you will need depth for the playoffs. Rookies are nice and shiny new but after an 82 game season you will be glad to have seasoned NHL veterans that can handle the grind!
And why on earth would you trade hartnell as you will need depth for the playoffs. Rookies are nice and shiny new but after an 82 game season you will be glad to have seasoned NHL veterans that can handle the grind!
I agree totally. But every year there has to be a scapegoat. And it's looking more and more like this year, it's going to be Hartnell.
I agree totally. But every year there has to be a scapegoat. And it's looking more and more like this year, it's going to be Hartnell.
I would trade Hartnell because Matt Carle is a freaking defensively liability (as he proved yet again tonight). The fact that he was voted the #1 star tonight is CRIMINAL... he basically handed the Kings that one goal. He has proven now for a year and change that he can't be relied on to play consistently good defense.
Ryan Suter provides the same level of offensive ability as Matt Carle (maybe even a little more), but he also has shutdown capability on the defensive end. And let's be honest here... we can/would re-sign him if he was traded here. We have the money, we're one of the #1 destinations for free-agents, what's not to like?
As far as Hartnell goes, Scott Hartnell has zero chemistry with Coots and Read and he is really just slowing that line down. And on top of that, we have Schenn waiting in the AHL. We have plenty of size, plenty of guys to battle against the boards (and unlike Hartnell, JVR & Jagr & Simmonds and Voracek don't lose those battles). That play today where Hartnell tried to lean on the defenseman and drive the goal told you everything you need to know about Hartnell... he's not really all that strong and not really all that skilled either. And on top of this, he takes a good deal of dumb penalties.
And as far as the playoffs go, you might need depth, but the one thing you cannot do is TAKE DUMB PENALTIES. And Scott Hartnell has proven time and time again that when the chips are down and the stakes are high, he will get dumb and take several stupid penalties.
If you can get Suter (and that's a somewhat big "IF"), then you make the move without batting an eyelash. It makes your team better this year, and even if you don't re-sign him, $4.2M in free agency next year will buy you a heck of a lot better player than Scott Hartnell...
Game 4 and look what you clowns are talking/arguing about....it's unreal on this board.
Anyway, I think I've had enough of Hartnell and his $4.2 mil cap hit/11 min TOI. I really would like to see Schenn center Briere and Simmonds, I think that line would mesh pretty well.
