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Does Martin have a plan

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Old
10-15-2011, 01:49 PM
  #101
Rutabaga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
For one thing, what worked pre-lockout might not work post-lockout so let's stop with the fact that he rode the tailcoat of a highly talented group in Ottawa and let's look at what he's done since the lockout.

Exactly the same... Here are just a few things that people were blaming Carbonneau for and Martin does just the same:
  • Preaching hard work
  • Putting 4th line players on the top 6
  • Mixing up his lines too much
  • Putting 3-4 line players on the PP, including Darche
  • Using defensemen as forwards
  • Poor communication
  • Being too defensive and not giving enough freedom to his top offensive players

That's just a few...
He's not doing the same. Carbonneau did not have a clue about using the talent he had the best way he could. This sentence will probably help us to understand better.
Lapierre was more used than Koivu at ES when he was fired.


Preaching hard work ? Well, i fail to see how it is a problem.

4th line players in the Top-6 ? Well, we're mainly, if not only, talking about Moen, who is a defensive player. Not a fighter, even if he can do it. The reason he is in the league is mainly his defensive ability, and he's really a reliable guy. He's not a 4th liner, but more likely a 3rd liner.

We need a solid player alongside Plekanec, because he face every night the best players the other team has to offer.
Its a risk to do otherwise, because of our defense. If he did otherwise, i am sure that i'll hear some complaints about the fact that he did put too much pressure on our rookies or Weber...

Darche was very useful last year, since we were missing some players with size and brave enough to sit in front of the net. But this year, he did not play that much, and i did not saw him on a consistent basis on the Top-6.

You have a problem with a coach who mixes up his lines too much, after 3 games, and with so many regulars out because of injuries ?
And when is he allowed to do so, then, because i cant find a better moment to try to find some combinations.
Anyway, he's forced to do so, i don even understand why you can complain about that. I dont think he's responsable for the fact that two defensemen are out since our inaugural game.

3rd or 4th line players on the PP ? Well, if they bring something that the other players dont have, i dont see why we should blame the coach for using them.

Using defensemen as forwards ? If they dont play, we complain, if they play as a forward, we complain. Sometimes, you need more than 6 D and in those 6+D, some players need to play anyway but are not strong enough etc...

Poor communication ? Its speculation.

Being too defensive and not giving enough freedom to his top offensive players ?

Our best players are mainly defensive players before being offensive juggernauts, and are considered as good, if not very good two-way players.
Even if you're only repeating this, you're repeating things that we should not talk about because they're wrong. Every coach in the league is doing what you're talking about.

But the most important thing to remember in our case is this :

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
precisely :
3 rookies
1 sophomore
1 back from a injury that made him miss half of last season


not almost, IT IS expansion team D... we probably have the least experienced D corp in the league...
In this kind of condition, every coach will do the same, and try to change some things, even in the same period of one game, to protect his defensive unit.
But we're on HFBoards, we know better than the GM and the coaches here.

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10-15-2011, 02:16 PM
  #102
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without Price it never would of happened, just like Halak the year before. This team is to small up front.
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Well, we took the Cup champs to within 1 goal of elimination. Why is it so far fetched to think that we could have won the Cup with Martin? That was last year though. We lost Wiz and Hamrlik and replaced them with two guys who had a combined 0 games experience in the NHL. Wiz was what 5th-6th in scoring for defensemen in the LEAGUE last year? We tried to patch those gaping holes with a guy like Camper who'd be a 4-5 on many teams and he goes down in the first game. What do you expect? For Emelin to get 35 points and be a +6 like Hammer did? For Diaz to man the PP and be in the top ten in the NHL in points like Wiz did? And I love Gorges and his heart as much as the next guy. But he's neither of those players either.

And not to mention we have Palushaj and Enquvist both on the team when realistically they should be in Hamilton.

This is JM's fault? Seems like it worked real well when he had the players to do it.

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Old
10-15-2011, 02:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
without Price it never would of happened, just like Halak the year before. This team is to small up front.
I find it odd when people say this. Price is part of the team. Of course it wouldn't have happened without him. Wouldn't have happened the year before without Cammy's goals either. Not sure what the point of saying that is.

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10-15-2011, 02:35 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
without Price it never would of happened, just like Halak the year before. This team is to small up front.
A good goalie can take you all the way too.

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10-15-2011, 02:55 PM
  #105
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some of the posts here are unreal, let's just look at the results

Subban, Price, Pacioretty and many more youngsters have developed well since Martin got here.

Brought the habs further in the playoffs then any other coaches since a very long time while having many key injuries

The team is incredibly more consistent then we have seen in the last 2 decades, although, you could argue it's the type of players we now have.

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10-15-2011, 03:20 PM
  #106
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Martin is only as good as his defence and goalie. When they play poorly, Martin looks incompetent.

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10-15-2011, 03:25 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Martin is only as good as his defence and goalie. When they play poorly, Martin looks incompetent.
Is there a team this doesn't apply to?

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10-15-2011, 03:29 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
The reason why the start of the season is going pretty bad is mostly the defense. Its not worthy of a playoff team. There are two rookies from Europe and one d-man at his second year. Two regular d-men are gone to injuries. One d-men is a big slow one dimensional player. One guy is coming back from a serious knee operation. This smells expansion team. The savior, Markov, well?

The team let go its most productive d-man. Hamrlik was a pretty solid guy who averaged 20 minutes a game. He was not offensive but he was there doing the right plays and not fragile. His loss is big. They let go Wiz and Columbus gave him the sky. For 4.5 million cap hit though, Wiz would have easily stayed. He would have easily replaced Markov. The team was doing fine without Markov in the first place for the past two seasons, so why sign him knowing that this player will never be the same. He is getting older and has only played 6 or 10 games the past two years. What impact can he bring when the thought of re-injuring that knee again will cross his mind?

The coach is making this team regress too. Year by year, he is slowly implementing a defensive system that is making this team lose its spike. The first year under Martin, the team reached the Conference Finals with a solid defensive system. This was rather an anomaly. The second year, they were one of the worst teams in goals scored. This year they look boring at the image of the coach. They didn't get tougher. They claim an injured Betts and return him back. That was panic mode. Also, what good is it to sign a guy like Cole,a power forward lol, if you don't play him?

Apparently now, Cole is not a savior, something I already knew. I wonder where is this savior?

Anyways, its the start of the season. Once everybody is back from injury things will get better.
How do you know he would have stayed ? how ?

How do you know that ?

Markov didnt play 6 or 10 games in the last two years but FIFTY TWO...

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Old
10-15-2011, 03:33 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Martin is only as good as his defence and goalie. When they play poorly, Martin looks incompetent.
Interesting. So when other team's goalies and defense play poorly it makes their coaches look good?

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Old
10-15-2011, 04:03 PM
  #110
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without Price it never would of happened, just like Halak the year before. This team is to small up front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Well, we took the Cup champs to within 1 goal of elimination. Why is it so far fetched to think that we could have won the Cup with Martin? That was last year though. We lost Wiz and Hamrlik and replaced them with two guys who had a combined 0 games experience in the NHL. Wiz was what 5th-6th in scoring for defensemen in the LEAGUE last year? We tried to patch those gaping holes with a guy like Camper who'd be a 4-5 on many teams and he goes down in the first game. What do you expect? For Emelin to get 35 points and be a +6 like Hammer did? For Diaz to man the PP and be in the top ten in the NHL in points like Wiz did? And I love Gorges and his heart as much as the next guy. But he's neither of those players either.

And not to mention we have Palushaj and Enquvist both on the team when realistically they should be in Hamilton.

This is JM's fault? Seems like it worked real well when he had the players to do it.

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Old
10-15-2011, 04:07 PM
  #111
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without Price last year and Halak the year before we would not of moved as deep into the playoffs . Especially the last year Halak was in Montrea. Last year we went 7 with Boston because of Price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padrino86 View Post
some of the posts here are unreal, let's just look at the results

Subban, Price, Pacioretty and many more youngsters have developed well since Martin got here.

Brought the habs further in the playoffs then any other coaches since a very long time while having many key injuries

The team is incredibly more consistent then we have seen in the last 2 decades, although, you could argue it's the type of players we now have.

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Old
10-15-2011, 04:14 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
without Price last year and Halak the year before we would not of moved as deep into the playoffs . Especially the last year Halak was in Montrea. Last year we went 7 with Boston because of Price.
huh no, Last year the B went 7 against us because or Thomas

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Old
10-15-2011, 04:52 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
without Price it never would of happened, just like Halak the year before. This team is to small up front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
without Price last year and Halak the year before we would not of moved as deep into the playoffs . Especially the last year Halak was in Montrea. Last year we went 7 with Boston because of Price.
Without Tim Thomas Boston doesn't win the Stanley Cup.... clearly Julien is an idiot.

Without Cam Ward, Carolina doesn't win the 2006 Cup... clearly Laviolette is an idiot.

Without Chris Osgood coming in after Hasek had lost two in a row, Detroit doesn't win the 2008 Cup... clearly Babcock is an idiot crappy coach.

Without Marc-Andre Fleury making a cup saving stop in Game 7, the Penguins don't win the Cup.... fire Bylsma.

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10-15-2011, 04:59 PM
  #114
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I think we all agree that Carey Price is the best player on the Habs. I don't think there is much disputing that he is the team MVP and the franchise goalie.

So yes.... Jacques Martin's system relies on his best player, his franchise player, playing like a franchise player should.

Isn't that good coaching? Maximizing the assets of your best player.

What should he do, have a wide open offensive system that asks Mathieu Darche to be an offensive dynamo and play like Alex Ovechkin??

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10-15-2011, 10:28 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Without Tim Thomas Boston doesn't win the Stanley Cup.... clearly Julien is an idiot.

Without Cam Ward, Carolina doesn't win the 2006 Cup... clearly Laviolette is an idiot.

Without Chris Osgood coming in after Hasek had lost two in a row, Detroit doesn't win the 2008 Cup... clearly Babcock is an idiot crappy coach.

Without Marc-Andre Fleury making a cup saving stop in Game 7, the Penguins don't win the Cup.... fire Bylsma.
Julien did something Martin could not. He adjusted.

Julien is cut from a very similar mold as Martin. Julien likes to play a passive 1-4 (or a 1-2-2) just like we do. As the Bruins progressed in the playoffs, Julien sent 2 in on the forecheck instead of 1. The Bruins became more aggressive on defense, looking very much like the stifling defense that the Red Wings are known for.

Aggressive, attack the puck defense AND Thomas propelled the Bruins to the Cup victory. No way would Boston have won if Julien stayed in the 1-4.

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10-16-2011, 08:14 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I think we all agree that Carey Price is the best player on the Habs. I don't think there is much disputing that he is the team MVP and the franchise goalie.

So yes.... Jacques Martin's system relies on his best player, his franchise player, playing like a franchise player should.

Isn't that good coaching? Maximizing the assets of your best player.

What should he do, have a wide open offensive system that asks Mathieu Darche to be an offensive dynamo and play like Alex Ovechkin??
You play to the strength of the identity of the team.

If you have a bunch of small players with a high-level of speed, you don't play a game that involves standing still.

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10-16-2011, 08:18 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Julien did something Martin could not. He adjusted.

Julien is cut from a very similar mold as Martin. Julien likes to play a passive 1-4 (or a 1-2-2) just like we do. As the Bruins progressed in the playoffs, Julien sent 2 in on the forecheck instead of 1. The Bruins became more aggressive on defense, looking very much like the stifling defense that the Red Wings are known for.

Aggressive, attack the puck defense AND Thomas propelled the Bruins to the Cup victory. No way would Boston have won if Julien stayed in the 1-4.
Martin got to the Semi Finals without his best player 2 years ago...how is that not adjusting?

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10-16-2011, 09:25 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You play to the strength of the identity of the team.

If you have a bunch of small players with a high-level of speed, you don't play a game that involves standing still.
The main strenght of the team is the special units. On paper, we suck 5 on 5. We don't have the size (and talent to some extend) to play a puck possession game. We have no choice to play the trap and get our chances on turnovers.

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10-16-2011, 09:58 AM
  #119
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I think Martin's plan has succeeded. The habs have a no-hit defense. It is one of those things that only works in theory, though. If you take a typical NHL defense and get the players to concentrate more on the puck you may get better results. If you change your whole defense to play the puck, not the man, you end up with:
* Forwards taking lots of time to set up in your zone. Less shots more goals.
* Injuries as other teams consistently make the big hit on your guys playing the puck.
* Other teams scoring 4-5 goals on your team without a goalie meltdown.
* A 1-2-1 record.
* Other teams setting up for rebounds. It looks like they get the bounces, but it's more a matter of establishing position.

The contrast between habs zone entry (pushed to the side, take quick, low percentage shot before they get hammered) and other teams' against the habs (take time to set up, get in position for rebounds, dump the puck in and retrieve it, endless cycling) is getting more and more pronounced.

The question is are they losing because they are not playing the system or because they are playing the system.

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10-16-2011, 10:05 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
The main strenght of the team is the special units. On paper, we suck 5 on 5. We don't have the size (and talent to some extend) to play a puck possession game. We have no choice to play the trap and get our chances on turnovers.
Last season, we outscored the opposition 137-135, 5 on 5. So far this season, it's 9-6. I get your point, but I think the Habs are pretty average at even strength, on paper. Although to many fans, average = suck!

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Originally Posted by dcyhabs View Post
The question is are they losing because they are not playing the system or because they are playing the system.
Well, last night they lost because of goaltending. The system looked well thought out and well executed, IMO.

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10-16-2011, 10:27 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Martin got to the Semi Finals without his best player 2 years ago...how is that not adjusting?
Because it wasn't. Nothing changed except the play of Halak which was in the stratosphere. As soon as he came back to earth, so did the team.

Having said that, I like what Martin did last night with his top nine players. He let them play together and develop some chemistry. I think it worked for all three lines.

We now need to work on the penalty kill... either the tactics or the personnel. And, hopefully Subban has learned something about teamwork. Maybe he was just trying too hard. We know the talent is there.

To me, there were a lot of positives to take from that game and I would like to see Martin build on those positives while tinkering with those shortcomings. In other words, please keep our top lines in place.

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10-16-2011, 10:29 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Last season, we outscored the opposition 137-135, 5 on 5. So far this season, it's 9-6. I get your point, but I think the Habs are pretty average at even strength, on paper. Although to many fans, average = suck!
Well yeah, I don't really meant that we sucked, just that amongst SC contender we suck 5 on 5. Our main strenghts are the PP and PK, and 5 on 5, our main strenght is to create turnovers in the neutral zone and scoring on breakaways, 2 on 1s, etc.

Whenever we try to play a cute puck possession game, we lose.

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10-16-2011, 10:48 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
without Price it never would of happened, just like Halak the year before. This team is to small up front.
Without Thomas in net we could have moved to the second round in 5 games.

And if I recall corrrectly Cami was leading the league in goals through the first round of last season's playoffs, as he did the year before too. In front of Halak, Gill led the league in blocked shots up until we faced the Flyers.

So it isn't ALL on the goalies once we reach the playoffs, although a lot of it is. Talented size up front would be great, but it isn't the be all/end all of hockey.

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10-16-2011, 03:11 PM
  #124
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Quote:
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Martin got to the Semi Finals without his best player 2 years ago...how is that not adjusting?
Adjusting the system/style of play......not adjusting the lineups.

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Old
10-16-2011, 03:38 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Well yeah, I don't really meant that we sucked, just that amongst SC contender we suck 5 on 5. Our main strenghts are the PP and PK, and 5 on 5, our main strenght is to create turnovers in the neutral zone and scoring on breakaways, 2 on 1s, etc.

Whenever we try to play a cute puck possession game, we lose.
If we could be decent on FO% instead of starting games/shifts by chasing the puck around, that would help A LOT in being a puck possession team...

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