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Subban - Signs of a sophomore slump

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Old
10-16-2011, 11:32 AM
  #51
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
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I'm more pissed at Gill and how incredibly slow his reactions are. Nevermind his skating. We know he's slower than molasses, but his reaction time was solid and that's what made him the specialist he is... err.. was. He has been BRUTAL. A cone. When Subban was paired with Gorges, they actually looked decent... but ofcourse pairings and lines don't last a period let alone a game.

Gorges - Subban
Yemelin - Weber
Gill - Diaz

Weber and Diaz are exchangeable right now, but I'd rather see Diaz get softer minutes.

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Old
10-16-2011, 12:05 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
did him good last season actually...
No, it killed his confidence. Even when he came he wasn't good. He started playing well when his job wasn't in jeopardy due to multiple injuries to our defense.

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10-16-2011, 12:35 PM
  #53
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Marc-André Bergeron has a great stat line.

I think he's arrived. We should have never let him go!

(4-5 games)

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10-16-2011, 12:41 PM
  #54
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I think the problem is expectations.

Everyone (myself included) had such high hopes for a great season from this guy that we kind of forgot the he's really only in his 2nd year. I thought he improved last year on the defensive side somewhat and was shocked when I saw him making the same kinds of rookie mistakes as last year. Really though, I shouldn't have been. It's a sophomore season and he's not going to improve overnight.

We need to be patient, it's going to take time. Don't expect him to be a Norris candidate this year because he's still learning the defensive side of things. The good news is that defense can be taught whereas offensive instincts are a 'you have 'em or you don't' type deal. He's got the offense in spades, now it's about development.

We're relying on him a lot right now (maybe too much) and we need to just sit back and let him learn the game. He'll improve as the year goes on.

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Old
10-16-2011, 12:53 PM
  #55
Hank Scorpio
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Originally Posted by Turtleneck Plek View Post
I'll echo most level-headed posters' thoughts in this thread; Subban will be just fine. I thought he was good against Winnipeg, although the other games were clearly not his best.

There are many reasons why he isn't playing as good as he did in the second part of the season last year. First, he's the only offensive d-man we have in the top-4. As much as I think Weber is critically underrated by fans here, he's not a top-4 D yet and does not come close to Subban's set of skills. I'm sure PK knows that and perhaps he tries to do too much. The season just started, he's playing with new players on defence and the automatisms are not there yet, as showed by his turnover that lead to a goal yesterday.

The positive is that apart from that one costly turnover, Subban is himself. He's always been a risk-taker and we'll have to live with his mistakes. However, he's still our best d-man to jump start the attack and his first pass is above anybody else's on the team apart for Markov, maybe. He still uses his body like no other player to protect the puck and is still an impact player on the PP and our best puck-mover.

He suffered from Pleks being on the point, as the whole PP unit did. We saw last night what an improvement it was to have Plekanec back at his half-wall position, masterminding the bottom part of the zone play. I wasn't sure about putting Subban on the right, giving Weber the one-timer slot, but they seemed to switch from the typical two d-men PP to an umbrella formation with Subban on top often to give PK a chance to fire a few one-timers.

Anyhow, he'll be fine. There will be bumps in the road because of the type of player he is, but he's far from the biggest concern on the team right now.
Agreed, well put.

I think it is more reflective of the process our defense core is going through right now more then anything else. Of the six defencemen who played last night, there is a combined 1509 games under their belts with Gill and Gorges contributing 1366 of those games (on a side note, anyone else realize Gill is two games off 1000?). Our D are, at the moment, inexperienced and still feeling each other. As a result, other teams are cutting through them like a hot knife through butter so everybody looks bad. The silver-lining is that they are improving (despite two five-goal games in a week) and this can only be a positive thing further down the line.

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Old
10-16-2011, 01:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
No, it killed his confidence. Even when he came he wasn't good. He started playing well when his job wasn't in jeopardy due to multiple injuries to our defense.
you mean, like the injuries we have right now... I see...

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Old
10-16-2011, 09:27 PM
  #57
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How can anyone call it a sophomore slump when he was already making similar boneheaded plays as a freshman? But he'll learn to make fewer and fewer of them. I forgive him already.


Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 10-16-2011 at 09:39 PM.
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10-16-2011, 09:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by XperHFB View Post
Dude forget it Subban took it easier this summer and now it shows on the ice. If he dint stopped training for tge many promotional events he went too he would probably be a clutch player right now but his not. His game is off and it will take about 20 games to see him back at his full potential. I hope he learns his lesson for next season
Yeah.. How do you figure that out? He was working ouy twice a day everyday with his two brothers all summer long.

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Old
10-16-2011, 10:06 PM
  #59
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But it's a good thing right? That way he won't cost us 57M/year like many were discussing this summer.

We should all be happy no?

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10-17-2011, 04:42 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But it's a good thing right? That way he won't cost us 57M/year like many were discussing this summer.

We should all be happy no?
Come on kriss, do you honestly believe our fan base would rather watch our future superstar struggle in order to keep his contract low.

I get what you're saying, but I think you are being guilty of the same thing as the fans you're sarcastically aiming this towards.

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10-17-2011, 07:02 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Come on kriss, do you honestly believe our fan base would rather watch our future superstar struggle in order to keep his contract low.

I get what you're saying, but I think you are being guilty of the same thing as the fans you're sarcastically aiming this towards.
I was obviously kidding. I think it as ridiculous to speak about a slump 4games in. People need to know the difference between a slump and a streak. We make fun leafs fans for jumping on the McCarthur bandwagon last year, 82g in 82gp, how many times did we say that? This is no different.

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Old
10-17-2011, 07:48 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I was obviously kidding. I think it as ridiculous to speak about a slump 4games in. People need to know the difference between a slump and a streak. We make fun leafs fans for jumping on the McCarthur bandwagon last year, 82g in 82gp, how many times did we say that? This is no different.
This. The mere fact that some fans are taking the first 4 games this seriously when it isn't like we're even 0-4-0 is quite amusing. Especially when pertaining to how one or two players are playing.

It's 4 games guys.

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Old
10-17-2011, 08:57 AM
  #63
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Subban has sucked. No denying that. All he needs to do to change that is is stop trying to be a 1-man show. Realize he has a team surrounding him. He probably feels pressure to carry the team, but he'll soon realize that he best play smart hockey or the retards will be booing him at the Bell Center.

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Old
10-17-2011, 09:00 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
was in the same context last season for all but 7 games.
No it's not the same context. Last season, he didn't start with the same expectations as this season, he wasn't expected to be a #1D, he slowly slid into the role. At the start of the season last year, Hammer was the #1 D, and Subban also had support from Gorges, Spacek and Gill, and then later on Markov, and then when he got injured Subban got support from Wiz. Not only this, but last year he was the only green on the D squad at the start of the season. This year, not only does he have to lead the D, with only the support of Gill and Gorges, he's also leading a D squad that has 3 green players (and all 3 are less talented than him) and one other sophomore besides him...

But yeah, it's the same context, right?

HE didn't have a full camp, and with little experience, he's expected to lead the D squad and do everything. That's an entirely different context, and that's why I mentioned veterans who start the season don't have this problem as they have the experience, and can deal with these expectations, whereas Subban, even though he had great stints as a #1D, has never started a season with this role. It might take him more time than a veteran to settle in.


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Originally Posted by Plekamaniac View Post
Easy to blame injuries. That is a loser's mentality for an easy way out.

If my truck was a car, and yellow instead of black, it would be a taxi!
Where did I blame injuries? Stop acting like a child. I'm putting Subban's position into context, where he's being trusted to fill in the major spot with no support and less than a 100 games played and less than 50 games of experience as a #1, and absolutely zero experience of being a #1 D without a bonafide #2 (Hammer).

I'm not Subban, so I'm not making excuses or blaming things. I'm somebody who tries to analyze his situation with every bit of information and comparative variables.

Stop pretending we carry the 'guilt' of underperformance of players and teams. The only reason you project this onto others is because you are the one who makes it a blame game (blame Subban, blame management, ect.). i'm much more concerned about truly understanding the situation, and that means understanding context, everything related to his situation. Only retards would try to have a grasp on the situation and ignore key variables like D support to a sophomore #1 D.

It's a shame Habs couldn't win in the shootout, mister 'Habs are too weak to score another goal'.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
After the terrible giveway, I thought he would be benched. He didn't miss a shift. It was the right decision because on the next shift, he made a sweet pass from his own zone to an open winger for a 3-on-2 rush.

He's going to make mistakes. Everyone does. The reason you'll notice it more, is because it: a. leads to a goal, b. he gets more ice time, more chances to turnover the puck and c. he's young and is still learning.
D) he's highly talented and always implicated in almost every play, he's always right there in the thick of things. That's why his errors are so glarring, but people forget how many good moves he made in 95% of the rest of the plays in that game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you mean, like the injuries we have right now... I see...
Nope that's not what he meant. It seems you are in 'ignore the point of the post' mode.


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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
This. The mere fact that some fans are taking the first 4 games this seriously when it isn't like we're even 0-4-0 is quite amusing. Especially when pertaining to how one or two players are playing.

It's 4 games guys.
Exactly.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 10-17-2011 at 09:15 AM.
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Old
10-17-2011, 09:09 AM
  #65
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Let's just remember that a sophomore slump isn't an actual quantifiable thing. He's not infected by the sophomore slump virus that's doomed him for the entire year.

He'll get over whatever doubt is in his head and become better.

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10-17-2011, 10:39 AM
  #66
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To echo some others: WAY too early to be too worried.

That said, in my opinion, through four games he has been far and away the worst blueliner, which is saying something on a team with two rookies and one guy barely out of training wheels.

In fact, if I were to rate the contributions of our six D so far:

1) Weber
2) Gorges
3) Diaz
4) Emelin
5) Gill
6) Subban

...and that's not really an endorsement of any of them. Clearly the issue through the first two weeks is on the back end.

Still, Subban has been the worst of the six and this has to be troubling. Gill will take a few weeks to catch up, he always does. Diaz, Weber and Emelin will have highs and lows as long as they're in the line-up. Gorges will settle in too.

Subban though spent three games looking utterly uninspired and one game (Colorado) looking over inspired to the point of insanity.

He needs to find that middle ground and I am sure he will.

For all the hype about the three young guys, what gets lost is that Gorges, Gill and Subban are all playing higher on the depth chart than they should be. So far, I think the bottom three kids are handling their jobs better than the three "veterans."

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Old
10-17-2011, 10:51 AM
  #67
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By the scoring chances 5 on 5 Subban is 58% (15 for 11 against) and similarly dominant in shot based metrics. No other defenseman is above 50% for scoring chances thus far. He's been driving the play in the right direction but unfortunately has had more spectacular failures than successes so his poor play stands out in the memory more than his good.

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Old
10-17-2011, 11:00 AM
  #68
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PK sees the need to step up, with the injuries piling up. And in the past he's been able to effectively. And he will again, once the cobwebs of the first games of a new season are shaken off. When he's been called on in the past he's always been 'ready' from already playing many games or an entire season. So, no need to pull the slump excuse yet.

As a group we're semi-dysfunctional, is what I'm more concerned about. Starting the season with many key injuries is pretty crappy...

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Old
10-17-2011, 11:00 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Subban has sucked. No denying that. All he needs to do to change that is is stop trying to be a 1-man show. Realize he has a team surrounding him. He probably feels pressure to carry the team, but he'll soon realize that he best play smart hockey or the retards will be booing him at the Bell Center.
Exactly. the coaching staff and his teamates MUST had told him that already... Will he finally understand ?

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Old
10-17-2011, 11:46 AM
  #70
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Nope that's not what he meant. It seems you are in 'ignore the point of the post' mode.
I suggest you re-read the post I quoted, it's pretty clear.

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10-17-2011, 11:47 AM
  #71
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Exactly. the coaching staff and his teamates MUST had told him that already... Will he finally understand ?
think he's been told last game, it was obvious as he didnt carry the puck even once in the 3rd actually... not even from the blue line to the red...

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10-17-2011, 11:56 AM
  #72
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I suggest you re-read the post I quoted, it's pretty clear.
Take you own advice. Do you really feel Subban had chances of being sent to Hamilton before the injuries this season?

Funny how you didn't respond to my other reply to you that has many more arguments to show the context isn't the same.

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:10 PM
  #73
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Take you own advice. Do you really feel Subban had chances of being sent to Hamilton before the injuries this season?

Funny how you didn't respond to my other reply to you that has many more arguments to show the context isn't the same.
huh... we lost a D halfway trough the first game of the season... what are you talking about ? Hamilton... come on now, be serious for a sec...


while they were right for the most part, it has nothing to do with the post I replied to (making a reference to INJURIES). Therefore didnt see a need to respond to...

it's pretty easy to understand actually, the guy think Subban job was safe because of injuries, implying he would play anyway as we didnt have enough healthy bodies on D to have him watch games from the stand at the time... as of now, we dont have enough bodies (not saying JM would scratch him, we have no way to know that) on D to scratch him or any other D...

so in that sense, in that context (of injuries), it's the same...



So yeah, maybe not being our #1 D or having more experience on the back end made it easier on him last season... but again, that's not what the post I replied to was talking about...


so yeah! reading...

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:15 PM
  #74
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you mean, like the injuries we have right now... I see...
I think what the poster is trying to say is the JM benching of PK last year has been heralded around here like some super great strategy that helped PK get back on track when reality is it killed his confidence and he didn't play well again until the lineup was decimated with injuries and he knew his job was safe, I tend to agree with him.

So, saying it helped last year as if it were absolute fact even though it is not the case. The time line in my memory is a lot closer to the other posters memory, he still struggled immediately upon return for a few games until his spot became secure. Benching him now as our number 1 dman wouldn't help us and certainly wouldn't help him.

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:15 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Take you own advice. Do you really feel Subban had chances of being sent to Hamilton before the injuries this season?

Funny how you didn't respond to my other reply to you that has many more arguments to show the context isn't the same.
I learned my lesson with that guy, gave up long ago on him.

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