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#4|Oct 15, 2011|Kings at Flyers|7:00 p.m. ET

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Old
10-17-2011, 02:20 PM
  #701
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I have a completely serious question for everyone. Everyone seems to have excuses for Richards and Carter. Hurt wrist, broken foot, the media is mean, the veterans in the locker room are mean, Homer's an idiot etc. Everyone seems to blame everyone except Richards and Carter. So my question is, if they were so great for us why were they traded?

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10-17-2011, 02:21 PM
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No, the Flyers and the MEDIA set up Carter and Richards to be superstars. The team and the media told you Richards was supposed to be Bobby Clarke. Richards was NEVER supposed to be a superstar. He was supposed to be Rod Brind'Amour, the guy who took the tough minutes (which he did) that enabled other people to be superstars and take the glory.
Valid point...either way it was ill-advised and led to this soured outcome sadly

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10-17-2011, 02:22 PM
  #703
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I wasn't expecting the Flyers to make the Finals again last year. I can deal with them losing. It's losing and not showing an effort that I have a problem with.
There's a significant difference between quitting, and out of gas. A lot of the Flyers were out of gas after a long run, and got the worst possible matchup getting a Bruins team who were on a mission. The Flyers season ended when Nathan Horton scored the OT winner in Game 7 vs. Montreal.

You're a 'Flyers Fan Since Birth,' you, like I, have seen a enough Flyers teams flat out quit because of goaltending **** shows, and last year against Buffalo was the **** shows of all **** shows. If your statement is legit, the Flyers would have came out and laid an egg in Game 6 vs. Buffalo.

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10-17-2011, 02:23 PM
  #704
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I have a completely serious question for everyone. Everyone seems to have excuses for Richards and Carter. Hurt wrist, broken foot, the media is mean, the veterans in the locker room are mean, Homer's an idiot etc. Everyone seems to blame everyone except Richards and Carter. So my question is, if they were so great for us why were they traded?
Exactly....both those players share NO responsibility and to suggest otherwise makes you a hater!

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10-17-2011, 02:24 PM
  #705
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Personally I didn't like Carter because of his style of play. While I have no doubts that he was successful at putting the puck in the back of the net, I found his style to be detrimental to his line-mates and the team.

Carters skate down the wing and fire a wrist shot at the net had two outcomes, the former happening far too regularly.

Shooting high and wide over the goaltender, ringing the puck around the boards and giving up any chance of offensive momentum. Not leading to the style that lavy was trying to teach. Again, he did score, but not worth the amount of puck possession that we gave up. He also scored goals from the slot, so don't quote his entire goal production.

In his time here, I can't remember many shifts in which the flyers controlled the puck in the offensive zone for any pro-longed period of time.

Again, Carter was solid in his own end and a very good defensive player. He was underrated in that regard. But with that size that he has, people expected him to use it, not so much to go around hitting players, but to control the puck and win battles in the corners. Much like Jagr can accomplish.

Carter isn't a bad player. But his offensive ability is very one dimensional. He's got a great cap hit and has blazing speed. I personally think that the flyers got a great return for him and that we will be a better team without him.

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10-17-2011, 02:26 PM
  #706
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And therein lies part of the problem..we set up Carter and Richards to be franchise superstars which they are not. Never were. They are very good players..exceptional but they need to take it to the next level and it seems management didn't think they could although they may elsewhere although I personally doubt it. Hence why they were moved before their clauses kicked in...also helped that the teams were offering a decent return for the both of them.

BTW..Holmgren after the finals loss was asked about Richards and he specifically noted that "he's not there yet" to take it to the next level. I recall it pretty vividly.
2009 playoff Richards would have been good enough to win this team a Stanley Cup in the future. But, I'm not sure how much more of that player we will ever see again.

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10-17-2011, 02:27 PM
  #707
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Whatever. People will think what they will and I'm not going to change their minds. I just know when I think of Mike Richards as a Flyer I'm always going to remember 2010 play-off Mike Richards, the guy who was a far better player than he had any right being given his skill set. The guy that knocks Bergeron 8 feet off the puck and then skates down to score the ugliest, most beautiful short handed goal I've ever seen. That guy is a champion to me, cup or not.

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10-17-2011, 02:29 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
There's a significant difference between quitting, and out of gas. A lot of the Flyers were out of gas after a long run, and got the worst possible matchup getting a Bruins team who were on a mission. The Flyers season ended when Nathan Horton scored the OT winner in Game 7 vs. Montreal.

You're a 'Flyers Fan Since Birth,' you, like I, have seen a enough Flyers teams flat out quit because of goaltending **** shows, and last year against Buffalo was the **** shows of all **** shows.
You're exactly right on that. The team as a whole, aside from JVR, was a huge disappointment in the second half of last season. It's not all Richards' fault that they sucked and barely made it past Buffalo and then got embarrassed by Boston. But when you have the C on your chest you have to be the guy that shows the team "hey I know we're tired but let's at least give it everything we have". I didn't see that from Richards. I didn't see it from him all last season or the season before aside from the playoffs. I'm harder on Richards than Carter because I came to expect more from Richards. All I expect from Carter is for him to float around and wait for easy goals. Unless it's the playoffs then he floats around and waits for easy goals that he doesn't cash in on.

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10-17-2011, 02:33 PM
  #709
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I'm not sure I've ever done that either . . . ?
I wasn't talking about you personally with that comment. It's other people at the beginning of this thread were saying they wanted the Flyers to win 4-3 and for Richards to have a hat trick. To me that's saying you'd rather see Richards get a hat trick than see the Flyers get a shutout.

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10-17-2011, 02:36 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth View Post
You're exactly right on that. The team as a whole, aside from JVR, was a huge disappointment in the second half of last season. It's not all Richards' fault that they sucked and barely made it past Buffalo and then got embarrassed by Boston. But when you have the C on your chest you have to be the guy that shows the team "hey I know we're tired but let's at least give it everything we have". I didn't see that from Richards. I didn't see it from him all last season or the season before aside from the playoffs. I'm harder on Richards than Carter because I came to expect more from Richards. All I expect from Carter is for him to float around and wait for easy goals. Unless it's the playoffs then he floats around and waits for easy goals that he doesn't cash in on.
Your feeling is obviously that Richards didn't give all he had.


My argument, based on history and the percentages, is that he did.


If Vancouver runs into San Jose (the team I have actually picked to win the Cup against my better judgement) in the 1st or 2nd round, and the Blackhawks wipe them out, the same accusations will happen there. Hell, it's already started.

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10-17-2011, 02:36 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Whatever. People will think what they will and I'm not going to change their minds. I just know when I think of Mike Richards as a Flyer I'm always going to remember 2010 play-off Mike Richards, the guy who was a far better player than he had any right being given his skill set. The guy that knocks Bergeron 8 feet off the puck and then skates down to score the ugliest, most beautiful short handed goal I've ever seen. That guy is a champion to me, cup or not.
There was a whole TEAM that played like that in 86-87....almost beat a dynasty. I will always remember that TEAM. I look forward to our new cast of players/individuals after the reset button was pushed to gell as a Cup TEAM (vs little groups and cliques) and actually win it. I will support this new TEAM like I always have since 85-86...Carter and Richards had a nice run and I thank them for their contributions..I.... like management didn't feel they could bring it and in Richards' case only because he soured on the coach and invariably the team. We couldn't afford to fire another coach although Lavy has his issues..hence we had to fix the culture of the team and I think we have. We will be better served in the long run than if we had kept a disgruntled Richards who apparently was described as being a "wall" from a team source after the exit interviews this season and a Carter who is injury prone, suspect when it comes to intensity with the playoffs and one-dimensional and not ideal for the system Lavy is trying to employ.

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10-17-2011, 02:37 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth View Post
I have a completely serious question for everyone. Everyone seems to have excuses for Richards and Carter. Hurt wrist, broken foot, the media is mean, the veterans in the locker room are mean, Homer's an idiot etc. Everyone seems to blame everyone except Richards and Carter. So my question is, if they were so great for us why were they traded?
In no order:

Bryzgalov, cap space.

Their contracts were too large a commitment for them to live up to going forward.

Carter is and was an *******. I personally think he and some of his actions were divisive in the locker room. He had good reasons for a lack of statistical success in the play-offs to date, but at the same time, he hadn't proven himself a valuable post-season player to the organization. I think he's going to be fine if he ever gets a healthy play-offs in, and he is a good player, but I don't care for him at all.

Richards was given too much too son as far as responsibility IMO. I think he is Captain material, but was given the C too soon. I also think his personal relationship with Carter gave the team additional incentive to move him once they moved Carter.

The situation just needed a reboot for everyone involved.

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Exactly....both those players share NO responsibility and to suggest otherwise makes you a hater!
No, to claim that players quit, or stopped trying or however you want to word it, when it's pretty obvious that they didn't...that makes you a hater.

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10-17-2011, 02:41 PM
  #713
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No, to claim that players quit, or stopped trying or however you want to word it, when it's pretty obvious that they didn't...that makes you a hater.
Not sure if you are making a general statement although I suspect you are..

Thing is in all my arguments over the past season and offseason never framed it in that way yet I personally was called a hater. Some people on here were far too liberal with the use of that term...that has been my gripe all along.

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10-17-2011, 02:46 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Not sure if you are making a general statement although I suspect you are..

Thing is in all my arguments over the past season and offseason never framed it in that way yet I personally was called a hater. Some people on here were far too liberal with the use of that term...that has been my gripe all along.
No it wasn't a general statement (though it wasn't something I am suggesting you do either). It was an explanation specific to me calling FLyersfansincebirth a hater. I would agree that it is a word that can get thrown around too much, often at the first sign of criticism.

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10-17-2011, 02:48 PM
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No it wasn't a general statement (though it wasn't something I am suggesting you do either). It was an explanation specific to me calling FLyersfansincebirth a hater. I would agree that it is a word that can get thrown around too much, often at the first sign of criticism.
Well mine was a general sarcastic statement so it was not meant to be directed at you personally..but thanks for the reasonable clarification

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10-17-2011, 02:50 PM
  #716
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Your feeling is obviously that Richards didn't give all he had.


My argument, based on history and the percentages, is that he did.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on it. You're going by history and percentages and I'm going by my opinions on what I saw. I believe I'm right and you believe you're right. Unfortunately we'll probably never know who is 100% right, if either of us really is.

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There was a whole TEAM that played like that in 86-87....almost beat a dynasty. I will always remember that TEAM. I look forward to our new cast of players/individuals after the reset button was pushed to gell as a Cup TEAM (vs little groups and cliques) and actually win it. I will support this new TEAM like I always have since 85-86...Carter and Richards had a nice run and I thank them for their contributions..I.... like management didn't feel they could bring it and in Richards' case only because he soured on the coach and invariably the team. We couldn't afford to fire another coach although Lavy has his issues..hence we had to fix the culture of the team and I think we have. We will be better served in the long run than if we had kept a disgruntled Richards who apparently was described as being a "wall" from a team source after the exit interviews this season and a Carter who is injury prone, suspect when it comes to intensity with the playoffs and one-dimensional and not ideal for the system Lavy is trying to employ.
Couldn't have said it any better than that aside from thanking Carter for his contributions. Carter can suck it.

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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
In no order:

Bryzgalov, cap space.

Their contracts were too large a commitment for them to live up to going forward.

Carter is and was an *******. I personally think he and some of his actions were divisive in the locker room. He had good reasons for a lack of statistical success in the play-offs to date, but at the same time, he hadn't proven himself a valuable post-season player to the organization. I think he's going to be fine if he ever gets a healthy play-offs in, and he is a good player, but I don't care for him at all.

Richards was given too much too son as far as responsibility IMO. I think he is Captain material, but was given the C too soon. I also think his personal relationship with Carter gave the team additional incentive to move him once they moved Carter.

The situation just needed a reboot for everyone involved.



No, to claim that players quit, or stopped trying or however you want to word it, when it's pretty obvious that they didn't...that makes you a hater.
I think if they needed to make room for Bryz then they could have moved someone other than their captain and leading goal scorer. But they didn't and it's for a reason. I agree that Richards was given too much too soon and would have been captain material eventually. But I think that ship as sailed, unless he changes his ways that he became set in after he was here for a few years. And yes, claiming a player quit when he obviously didn't does make you a hater. But I don't see where it's obvious that he didn't quit.

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10-17-2011, 02:58 PM
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Equally the Carter "hate" red herring is among the most disingenious and ignorant fallback positions to denigrate people who actually put out valid points like citing Richards' own words that things were not right...but let's ignore that.
Not sure how this is relevant, since I never said anything about hate/hating/whatever. You brought it up, not me. I've been called "hater" more than enough around here , I hate (haaaaaa) that term enough that I try to avoid it at all costs.

There are valid, rational criticisms of Carter. "He hates the team, never tries, is lazy, never ever hits the net, is slow, etc" are not valid, rational criticisms and are just wrong. Yet those are the ones that most critics wheel out nonstop, and they make no sense. There are people around here who claim that injured players are just being lazy (example: Richards, Carter). That's just insane. I guess Lappy and Betts are just lazy?

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10-17-2011, 03:03 PM
  #718
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Whatever. People will think what they will and I'm not going to change their minds. I just know when I think of Mike Richards as a Flyer I'm always going to remember 2010 play-off Mike Richards, the guy who was a far better player than he had any right being given his skill set. The guy that knocks Bergeron 8 feet off the puck and then skates down to score the ugliest, most beautiful short handed goal I've ever seen. That guy is a champion to me, cup or not.
That shift in my opinion was an absolute master piece! The Alpha Male call was epic as well ! I have watched that replay hundreds of times and its still amazing ! Most folks did not also see the epic open ice hit Bayden Coburn laid on a cat during that amazing shift.....

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10-17-2011, 03:13 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Whatever. People will think what they will and I'm not going to change their minds. I just know when I think of Mike Richards as a Flyer I'm always going to remember 2010 play-off Mike Richards, the guy who was a far better player than he had any right being given his skill set. The guy that knocks Bergeron 8 feet off the puck and then skates down to score the ugliest, most beautiful short handed goal I've ever seen. That guy is a champion to me, cup or not.
Up until now I had no idea that Pierre Mcguire posted on these boards.

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10-17-2011, 03:14 PM
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Up until now I had no idea that Pierre Mcguire posted on these boards.
So that shift was nothing special?

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10-17-2011, 03:14 PM
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Not sure how this is relevant, since I never said anything about hate/hating/whatever. You brought it up, not me. I've been called "hater" more than enough around here , I hate (haaaaaa) that term enough that I try to avoid it at all costs.

There are valid, rational criticisms of Carter. "He hates the team, never tries, is lazy, never ever hits the net, is slow, etc" are not valid, rational criticisms and are just wrong. Yet those are the ones that most critics wheel out nonstop, and they make no sense. There are people around here who claim that injured players are just being lazy (example: Richards, Carter). That's just insane. I guess Lappy and Betts are just lazy?
It's relevant in the general context you made your comment about people being unreasonable about Carter which I'm not denying didn't exist..just that I was never one of them and my reasoning for trading him was always primarily from a hockey standpoint as far as leveraging him which I'm glad management felt the same way and acted upon. I had my issues with him but never hated the guy yet this is what I got from you and others and I took umbrage and still do b/c it was total red herring BS all along...

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We get it, you hate Carter and want him gone.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...&postcount=111
My zillionth explanation to the above baseless accusation


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10-17-2011, 03:17 PM
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See how I said rarely? Congrats on bookmarking one of the very few times I've said it.

The fact that you take every opportunity you can to start threads or make posts that paint Richards/Carter in a negative light don't really do much to help you though.

edit: is there any special reason why you're removing me from the quotes?

edit 2: you are also taking those posts out of the context of the time...meaning, the Cartsiephan time. When he (a true hater (ugh)) created an environment where basically everyone assumed that people criticizing Carter were doing it baselessly. He created a backlash where people with legitimate arguments were snapped at. It was an unfortunate time for all.

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10-17-2011, 03:19 PM
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So that shift was nothing special?
Oh it was a great shift. just the way the guy talked about it sounded like the way good ol' Pierre drools over Richards. It was a joke.

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10-17-2011, 03:20 PM
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Oh it was a great shift. just the way the guy talked about it sounded like the way good ol' Pierre drools over Richards. It was a joke.
Why is it a joke to admire hard effort?

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10-17-2011, 03:20 PM
  #725
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I wasn't talking about you personally with that comment. It's other people at the beginning of this thread were saying they wanted the Flyers to win 4-3 and for Richards to have a hat trick. To me that's saying you'd rather see Richards get a hat trick than see the Flyers get a shutout.
Until they start awarding more points for a shutout win than a regulation win, I couldn't give a damn if the Flyers get a shutout. I just want them to get the 2 points as often as possible.

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