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The habs young core players.

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Old
10-17-2011, 04:46 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i dunno about that...

loved the playoff run until the conf finals, but then it was almost all heartbreak...

the conference winning team gave me a solid few months of joy, plus 1 1/2 playoff rounds of thrills, before the heartbreak.

since neither came with a happy ending, i think i'll take the conference winning season since it gave me greater time... plus once the season came to a crashing halt, i had a whole summer of feeling pumped about us looking finally like a true contender, whereas after the conf finals loss, and the halak trade, it was back to a summer of questions and despite trying to stay optimistic, a roster that looked more or less poised for another struggle to make the playoffs.
I am usually leaning towards your view on this team, but do you honestly not see any difference in the direction PG is going and the direction /bg took? Are you honestly not a tad bit more excited about our future? I know I am.

Gaineys biggest flaw as GM was the panicky moves he made when he traded for Gomez, signed Gionta, Cammy, Spacek, Gill, but there is no denying the pipeline of young, quality NHL players he had left for PG and PG has continued to add youth and size with the odd signing to compliment the youth.

The only move to date that PG made that I wasn't a fan of was re-signing Hal Gill. I thought we had a great chance to move our D in a positive direction and become a force in that area, but failed to do so, having said that, we are missing key players from our top 6 yet again, but still manage, quite easily to ice a pretty good top 6.

My only problem with the d is that the young guys like weber, diaz are too similar in what they offer, we need a more balanced D wiith some added ruggedness, I'm confident when Yemelin gets 20 games or so under his belt he will offer some of that dimension, it's been missing to this point and even though he hasn't been a force physically, he has showcased part of his game many of us never knew he had, smooth skating, crisp passes ect.

I am a little concerned that Diaz/Weber is too much of the same skill set, I like both of them, but feel dressing two guys with similar skillsets (unidimensional, nonphysical) may be too much, if we already had an over abundance of size and strength this could probably be overlooked, but Diaz was a good signing on his own. Just a little redundant.

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10-17-2011, 10:09 AM
  #27
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I agree that Diaz and Weber are redundant the Diaz signing still allows you the freedom to trade one of those two players for another element that you lack in the team, such as a forward prospect.

I really could see another deal like O'Byrne for Bournival, or Dagostini for Palushaj coming with Weber.

It won't happen today as we need all 6 D due to the injuries, but once Markov and Spacek are back and we have 8 guys back there... I could see it. When Campoli returns it will be 9, and it will be getting closer to trade deadline time.

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10-17-2011, 10:13 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I think Dany Kristo will have a big year at UND and force himself into this conversation.
He will need more then a big year in college, he will need to have a great camp next year and then we can talk about forcing himself into the conversation.

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10-17-2011, 10:37 AM
  #29
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He will need more then a big year in college, he will need to have a great camp next year and then we can talk about forcing himself into the conversation.
A big camp will be needed to force himself to move from College straight to the NHL.

I think even if he's in the AHL next year, a big year in college this season, and he can be looked to as part of the future core of this hockey club. In the lines being proposed for 3-4 years from now.

To me he will be a future 2nd/3rd line winger.

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10-17-2011, 10:40 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
I realllly want Grigorenko but I realllly don't want to watch this team lose 45+ games.
Than close your eyes and reopen them in June when we will pick Grigorenko 1st or 2nd overall.

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10-17-2011, 12:27 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I am usually leaning towards your view on this team, but do you honestly not see any difference in the direction PG is going and the direction /bg took? Are you honestly not a tad bit more excited about our future? I know I am.

Gaineys biggest flaw as GM was the panicky moves he made when he traded for Gomez, signed Gionta, Cammy, Spacek, Gill, but there is no denying the pipeline of young, quality NHL players he had left for PG and PG has continued to add youth and size with the odd signing to compliment the youth.

The only move to date that PG made that I wasn't a fan of was re-signing Hal Gill. I thought we had a great chance to move our D in a positive direction and become a force in that area, but failed to do so, having said that, we are missing key players from our top 6 yet again, but still manage, quite easily to ice a pretty good top 6.

My only problem with the d is that the young guys like weber, diaz are too similar in what they offer, we need a more balanced D wiith some added ruggedness, I'm confident when Yemelin gets 20 games or so under his belt he will offer some of that dimension, it's been missing to this point and even though he hasn't been a force physically, he has showcased part of his game many of us never knew he had, smooth skating, crisp passes ect.

I am a little concerned that Diaz/Weber is too much of the same skill set, I like both of them, but feel dressing two guys with similar skillsets (unidimensional, nonphysical) may be too much, if we already had an over abundance of size and strength this could probably be overlooked, but Diaz was a good signing on his own. Just a little redundant.
i've been on the fence with PG, and was very willing to give him some serious time to put his own stamp on the team given the cap mess he inherited from gainey, but as time goes by I'm seeing a very similar pattern of decision making behind his moves...

- reluctance to address the teams lack of toughness
- trading away players when their value is at it's lowest point and getting poor ROI
- questionable UFA contracts reflecting desperation over long-term planning
- questionable asset management, especially with lower picks, UFA's and depth players
- questionable approach to contract negotiations with RFA's/UFA's (waiting too long, being conservative with "in-house" players but liberal in spending to attract new UFA's

I have liked some of his decisions, but just as many have left me scratching my head.

with a log-jam of expensive contracts up front, only 2 players currently under contract on defense next year, and big-time contracts extensions to reach with 2 vital players, not too mention a decision to make regarding the head coach, the next 12 months will put an emphatic stamp on his tenure as GM...

whereas I was cautiously optimistic in his first 2 years, given his track record so far, I'm definitely leaning more towards skepticism with the important decisions to come.

hope he proves to be more Holland-esque than Gainey-esque in the next 12 months!





I'm still waiting to see a concerted

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:28 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I agree that Diaz and Weber are redundant the Diaz signing still allows you the freedom to trade one of those two players for another element that you lack in the team, such as a forward prospect.

I really could see another deal like O'Byrne for Bournival, or Dagostini for Palushaj coming with Weber.

It won't happen today as we need all 6 D due to the injuries, but once Markov and Spacek are back and we have 8 guys back there... I could see it. When Campoli returns it will be 9, and it will be getting closer to trade deadline time.
saddly you may be right, and just as in those two instances, Weber is likely to quickly establish himself as an important player on his new team, playing exactly the role we had hoped he'd develop into with us

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I am usually leaning towards your view on this team, but do you honestly not see any difference in the direction PG is going and the direction /bg took? Are you honestly not a tad bit more excited about our future? I know I am.

Gaineys biggest flaw as GM was the panicky moves he made when he traded for Gomez, signed Gionta, Cammy, Spacek, Gill, but there is no denying the pipeline of young, quality NHL players he had left for PG and PG has continued to add youth and size with the odd signing to compliment the youth.

The only move to date that PG made that I wasn't a fan of was re-signing Hal Gill. I thought we had a great chance to move our D in a positive direction and become a force in that area, but failed to do so, having said that, we are missing key players from our top 6 yet again, but still manage, quite easily to ice a pretty good top 6.

My only problem with the d is that the young guys like weber, diaz are too similar in what they offer, we need a more balanced D wiith some added ruggedness, I'm confident when Yemelin gets 20 games or so under his belt he will offer some of that dimension, it's been missing to this point and even though he hasn't been a force physically, he has showcased part of his game many of us never knew he had, smooth skating, crisp passes ect.

I am a little concerned that Diaz/Weber is too much of the same skill set, I like both of them, but feel dressing two guys with similar skillsets (unidimensional, nonphysical) may be too much, if we already had an over abundance of size and strength this could probably be overlooked, but Diaz was a good signing on his own. Just a little redundant.
Gomez was a bad acquisition on the balance but without Cammaleri, Gionta and Spacek Montreal would have been terrible these last two years and are a big part of the veteran group that sheltered the youngsters as they graduated. Cammaleri and Gionta especially are some of the biggest impact players to move on free agency in the past 3 years (Hossa, Richards, Gaborik and Havlat being the others note two of them going to New York) and compared to other UFA's that went to open market they aren't overpaid. Also, Spacek was a big part of holding the defense together by playing tough minutes these last two years.

Montreal couldn't have iced a competitive team over the past two year if they didn't acquire those guys during free agency.

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
funny, if you flashback 4-5 years, I think you'd find just about the exact same threads...

Higgins- future 30 goal scorer
Komisarek- shutdown top pairing stud
Price or AHL dominating Halak in nets

strong young nucleus with Pleks, A.Kost, Lapierre
McDo, Subban, Pacioretty, S.Kost, Chipchura, Weber, Maxwell, O'byrne... lots of young talent up front and on defense in the pipelines

all we need to do is land that 1 great fwd/big first line centre, and we'll be set...

I'm SURE Gainey will make it happen, in bob we trust!


I thought the same.
You forget Perezhogin, and the power-forward Latendresse.

4-5 years ago, I thought Habs will be a force !

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10-17-2011, 01:44 PM
  #35
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If we have to look at guys either in NHL or prospects under the age of 25 that I can really see playing for the big club, here are the roles that I get:

Pacioretty-XXXX-XXXX
XXXX-Eller-Gallagher/Kristo
Desharnais-Leblanc-Avtsin/Palushaj
Bournival-Dumont-White

Beaulieu-Subban
Emelin-XXXX
Tinordi/Bennett-Weber

Price

Right now, it seems like we are weak at LW prospects after Pacioretty, and weak in high-end offensive talent in general. That being said, I think that the guys listed above should have a decent shot of contributing at the NHL level, if they aren't already. Add in some of our younger vets and maybe we see something like this in two/three years, assuming no major UFAs/trades (which is unlikely):

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Cole
Cammalleri-Eller-Gionta
Kostitsyn-Desharnais-Gallagher
Bournival-Leblanc-Kristo

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Weber/Diaz
Beaulieu-Gorges

Price

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10-17-2011, 01:44 PM
  #36
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saddly you may be right, and just as in those two instances, Weber is likely to quickly establish himself as an important player on his new team, playing exactly the role we had hoped he'd develop into with us
You can't keep redundant pieces. If Diaz is playing that role, I don't see the problem with Weber being somewhere else and having a nice career. Or vice-versa.

There are only so many spots for RH offensive Dmen... and Subban will be one of those... and the other can be filled by one of Diaz/Weber.

Use the third guy to fill a position of need that is missing in the organization.

Thats good asset management.

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10-17-2011, 01:54 PM
  #37
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I think Eller has a real shot at becoming a big-time legit #1 Center in 3-4 years.

I really believe that.

I know it may not seem that way right now, but wait...
Agreed Eller will be a force

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10-17-2011, 02:04 PM
  #38
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Regarding Emelin, just like PK, Weber, and even forward Lars Eller, under a JM system these players are told to keep it simple, learn the defensive side of the game first and then once that has settled the rest will sort itself out. Like another poster mentioned after 20~ games we will start to see his physical side more and he won't be getting caught out of position or costing us games all the time when he does it.

I actually like this coaching staffs approach with kids. It isn't great for them statistically but it gives them time to develop more physically, get used to the flow of NHL hockey and not cost their team games. The offensive side of things will come once they learn the defensive side of things. It puts zero pressure on guys like Weber to put up points but rather helps them become better all around players.

Our previous coaching staff did something similar with Streit, they even played him as a forward to get him in there gradually and put him in less positions to hurt the team. In my opinion that is smart, and then once he was ready he became a full time D and eventually played with Markov. Now look at Streit today... he's a future Markov. Can't really complain about the results thus far.

tl;dr version is that Weber, Emelin and Diaz just need time to adjust and be given time to learn the defensive side of the game first. The physical and offensive side will all come because these players already know that side of the game. It's perfecting their NHL timing and not being caught out of position (defense) they need to learn.

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10-17-2011, 02:21 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Regarding Emelin, just like PK, Weber, and even forward Lars Eller, under a JM system these players are told to keep it simple, learn the defensive side of the game first and then once that has settled the rest will sort itself out. Like another poster mentioned after 20~ games we will start to see his physical side more and he won't be getting caught out of position or costing us games all the time when he does it.

I actually like this coaching staffs approach with kids. It isn't great for them statistically but it gives them time to develop more physically, get used to the flow of NHL hockey and not cost their team games. The offensive side of things will come once they learn the defensive side of things. It puts zero pressure on guys like Weber to put up points but rather helps them become better all around players.

Our previous coaching staff did something similar with Streit, they even played him as a forward to get him in there gradually and put him in less positions to hurt the team. In my opinion that is smart, and then once he was ready he became a full time D and eventually played with Markov. Now look at Streit today... he's a future Markov. Can't really complain about the results thus far.

tl;dr version is that Weber, Emelin and Diaz just need time to adjust and be given time to learn the defensive side of the game first. The physical and offensive side will all come because these players already know that side of the game. It's perfecting their NHL timing and not being caught out of position (defense) they need to learn.

He's older than markov.


Neo

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10-17-2011, 02:40 PM
  #40
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Call me hopelessly optimistic but I agree with the OP.

Great Goaltender - Price, potential to be a Franchise Goalie
Power Forward - Pacioretty is emerging as one
Highly Skilled Offensive Defenseman - Subban
Offensive Centre - Eller

Those are our young core guys, we're missing a young sniper, and a young shutdown defenceman. Young in this instance is under 25.

We do have a sniper though who's still under 30 and he has one of the best releases in the NHL. Plekanec is awesome but we're still missing the prototypical 80+ point first line centre. I think we'll be a great if Eller reaches consistent 60+ point centre status.

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10-17-2011, 02:41 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
If we have to look at guys either in NHL or prospects under the age of 25 that I can really see playing for the big club, here are the roles that I get:

Pacioretty-XXXX-XXXX
XXXX-Eller-Gallagher/Kristo
Desharnais-Leblanc-Avtsin/Palushaj
Bournival-Dumont-White

Beaulieu-Subban
Emelin-XXXX
Tinordi/Bennett-Weber

Price

Right now, it seems like we are weak at LW prospects after Pacioretty, and weak in high-end offensive talent in general. That being said, I think that the guys listed above should have a decent shot of contributing at the NHL level, if they aren't already. Add in some of our younger vets and maybe we see something like this in two/three years, assuming no major UFAs/trades (which is unlikely):

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Cole
Cammalleri-Eller-Gionta
Kostitsyn-Desharnais-Gallagher
Bournival-Leblanc-Kristo

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Weber/Diaz
Beaulieu-Gorges

Price
You could say we are weak at prospects, but you also have to consider that we're basically in the middle of a partial rebuild - despite our older core. It was shocking to see all the kids announced in the opener. And these kids are very raw. They've done well all things considered.

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10-17-2011, 05:45 PM
  #42
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Looking over the roster, we have a lot of young roster players who are going to be big parts of this team moving forward, namely

Pacioretty who is looking like he's going to be a 1st line power forwardSubban who already is a 1st pairing D and will probably be a Boyle clone
Price top 5 goaltender and will likely be a top 3 goaltender

Eller 2nd line center
Desharnais 2nd line center/winger

Frankly the only thing I think were missing is still that elusive number 1 center and possibly another great defenseman, or at least three more top 4 D, Personally I think Beaulieu and Tinordi can be two of those players.

However, even if we do have a down year like the Canucks did in 2008 when they got Hodgson, we could get someone like Alex Galchenynuk or Grigorenko.

Frankly there are a lot of positives on this team going forward. and were only a great forward away from being contenders for years
No.

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10-17-2011, 05:49 PM
  #43
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No.
Now there is one solid post ! Let me guess, not a Habs fan right ?

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10-17-2011, 05:59 PM
  #44
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
You can't keep redundant pieces. If Diaz is playing that role, I don't see the problem with Weber being somewhere else and having a nice career. Or vice-versa.

There are only so many spots for RH offensive Dmen... and Subban will be one of those... and the other can be filled by one of Diaz/Weber.

Use the third guy to fill a position of need that is missing in the organization.

Thats good asset management.
it's only good asset management if you actually get something of value for the asset...

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10-17-2011, 06:04 PM
  #45
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Now there is one solid post ! Let me guess, not a Habs fan right ?
I like a few Habs like Moen and White. I came here to see when White was gonna be back because I didn't know.

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Old
10-17-2011, 06:11 PM
  #46
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No.
I'll take that bet.

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10-17-2011, 06:17 PM
  #47
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I see Diaz and Weber as different players. Diaz is a rushing and puck moving d man. Weber is more conservative defensively. And Weber is more of a powerplay point man. Diaz is a qb type.

If they get better, as they should, then we should hold onto both until we are out of options or a chance to improve the team by movingone of them. Early returns are pretty good.

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10-17-2011, 06:34 PM
  #48
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I like a few Habs like Moen and White. I came here to see when White was gonna be back because I didn't know.
So you firgured out that Patches wouldn't be a power forward, by watching him play one game a year against your team right ? Or is it just your hate for the Habs, that made you honor us with your honorable post ?

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10-17-2011, 06:34 PM
  #49
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it's only good asset management if you actually get something of value for the asset...
Of course. You have to make a good trade, but that doesn't mean trading a redundant piece for a need is a bad idea.

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10-17-2011, 07:01 PM
  #50
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No.
OK, I'll bite. What quality do you feel that Pacioretty lacks that disqualifies him from being a powerforward?

Scoring ability?
Physical strength?
Ability to drive to the net and score in close?
Screening goaltenders?

Or are you one of those guys that only consider a guy a power forward if he can fight, which is really irrelevant to their job in the modern NHL.

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