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Plus/Minus Pens vs Sabres 10-15-11

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Old
10-16-2011, 01:44 PM
  #101
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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You take from that that I'm a troll? lol @ you

But by all means, block me and pretend this discussion never happened. I'll do the same. Your posts make my head hurt.

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10-16-2011, 01:48 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Uncle Martin View Post
Lets get something straight here.

The only thing that Crosby and Malkin effect mostly is the offense and the gaffs made mostly that cost them were defensive gaffs by the D.

This was/is their strength. Obviously Orpik hurts it a bit more than either of Sid or Geno out.

So please lets not try to cover D-lapses with Crosby & Malkin being out talk. Lovejoy, their weakest link (at the moment) was given lesser minutes than all the rest and I have Martin & Niskanen with pluses on the game with the rest equal or minus.

The Pens strength is what ultimately cost them the game because, even when they were missing a single D-man last year they won many games without one of the top four and.......without Sid and Geno.

It's one game where this happened and really showed its head. Hopefully it won't persist for many more games.
Yeah, I don't agree with this. The defense is almost always better with Sid and Geno helping out down low + spending time in the offensive zone. The defense was better last year when they played.

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10-16-2011, 02:03 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
You take from that that I'm a troll? lol @ you

But by all means, block me and pretend this discussion never happened. I'll do the same. Your posts make my head hurt.
No, it's just you really shouldn't insult people directly in your posts. I mean, you can call a point stupid but insulting someone's intelligence is really uncalled for and I don't want to be associated with people like that.

You don't have to be a troll to troll.

Well I would have headaches too if I complained when every player we get produces. We can never be happy with what we have. He's playing well now, so what if he might not be at this great pace come spring.

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10-16-2011, 02:15 PM
  #104
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Originally Posted by nTsplnk View Post
No, it's just you really shouldn't insult people directly in your posts. I mean, you can call a point stupid but insulting someone's intelligence is really uncalled for and I don't want to be associated with people like that.

You don't have to be a troll to troll.
Fair enough. I have a bad habit of doing that. I apologize.

Quote:
Well I would have headaches too if I complained when every player we get produces. We can never be happy with what we have. He's playing well now, so what if he might not be at this great pace come spring.
The fact remains though that you're badly misinterpreting my posts. Why do you think I am complaining about Neal? All I'm doing is stating facts. He's struggled later in the season over his career, so it would be wise for Shero to wait before signing him. Obviously he's going to be signed regardless. What Shero should be most concerned with is getting the most cap friendly deal possible.

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10-16-2011, 02:19 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Fair enough. I have a bad habit of doing that. I apologize.



The fact remains though that you're badly misinterpreting my posts. Why do you think I am complaining about Neal? All I'm doing is stating facts. He's struggled later in the season over his career, so it would be wise for Shero to wait before signing him. Obviously he's going to be signed regardless. What Shero should be most concerned with is getting the most cap friendly deal possible.
Well that really could bite us in the butt . What if he goes on a tear in the spring?

Yea, he has a history and I see your point, but that's so up in the air. Neal so far loves it here and he's putting it all out there every shift. He's more seasoned too so you never know.

But we'll see, hopefully he keeps it up!

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10-16-2011, 02:54 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
There are constant breakdowns in every game by every team. I'll argue that Buffalo had twice as many, but because their goalie was able to overcome them, they get overlooked and the Pens are the ones who look sloppy. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The other team is filled with professionals who have a job to do as well and force the issue sometimes. It's going to happen, or every team would be posting shutouts or 1 goal games.

The Letang giveaway can be considered heinous, until you realize that those passes make it out of the zone 9 times out of 10. It's simplistic to say, but a flip pass that hits the shaft of an opposing player's stick and bounces perfectly the other way is simply a fluke, and in the end, not really a bad play by anyone.

The first goal isn't a breakdown either, but the D-man equivalent of when a goalie is scored on by a redirection. (Vanek?) Attempts a play that bounces right off Letang and lands perfectly on the blade of a Sabre player on the other side of the ice, and Engelland is unable to recover.
Good points. I didn't realize the Letang giveaway just hit a shaft. Still Lovejoy was breaking out way too soon. I was pleasantly surprised that Letang ended the night with an even +/-.

Sabres are definitely a quality team this year, Leino, Adam, Gerbe give them solid O-depth after Stafford, Vanek, Pominville and Roy. No superstars, but an extremely deep group of star-level talent; and well coached.

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Old
10-16-2011, 02:58 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
There are constant breakdowns in every game by every team. I'll argue that Buffalo had twice as many, but because their goalie was able to overcome them, they get overlooked and the Pens are the ones who look sloppy. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The other team is filled with professionals who have a job to do as well and force the issue sometimes. It's going to happen, or every team would be posting shutouts or 1 goal games.

The Letang giveaway can be considered heinous, until you realize that those passes make it out of the zone 9 times out of 10. It's simplistic to say, but a flip pass that hits the shaft of an opposing player's stick and bounces perfectly the other way is simply a fluke, and in the end, not really a bad play by anyone.

The first goal isn't a breakdown either, but the D-man equivalent of when a goalie is scored on by a redirection. (Vanek?) Attempts a play that bounces right off Letang and lands perfectly on the blade of a Sabre player on the other side of the ice, and Engelland is unable to recover.
I agree with a good portion of this but the last. Engelland failed to stop the cross ice blocked shot by Letang and the shot was taken and then Letang just totally released his man. I don't know what he was thinking, maybe he thought it was covered. He totally quit on the play instead of staying with his guy.




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Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post
Yeah, I don't agree with this. The defense is almost always better with Sid and Geno helping out down low + spending time in the offensive zone. The defense was better last year when they played.
I'll agree to disagree here, the D was solid with or without them and short guys on D.


My main point is this team can win, but it's not pretty enough for everyone. I'd love to have them all in there but they can win without them.

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10-16-2011, 03:26 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Uncle Martin View Post
I'll agree to disagree here, the D was solid with or without them and short guys on D.


My main point is this team can win, but it's not pretty enough for everyone. I'd love to have them all in there but they can win without them.
Any time a team is forced to spend more time in their own zone, their defensive weaknesses become more exposed. Having centermen like Malkin and Crosby who are responsible defensively on top of being extremely talented offensively forces opposing teams to have a little more respect and play with a little more caution on both ends of the ice. You may be able to argue whether the D core is better with or without the Pens' top two centers, but you cannot argue that those two take a lot of pressure off the team in the defensive zone.

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Old
10-16-2011, 04:34 PM
  #109
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Last night's game was no biggie - it happens. You take 20m out of any lineup and they are going to be significantly weaker. That said, this team has shown the ability to win with less talent on the ice by playing mistake free hockey. They lost their fundamentals and it cost them the game - again not a big deal.

I am pretty happy with things overall. No real worries like I had in the past about this team. My only real worry is injuries and Crosby/Malkin getting and staying healthy.

I am not worried about the winger situation anymore with Neal and Sullivan now in the fold. I also think Shero will most likely be looking to add another top 6 winger at the deadline.

I can't find much to complain about to be honest. My biggest gripe has come down to Letestu not being put on waivers, but he hasn't done much to help his cause. So if/when it happens, I really won't even have much to say about that.

All this team team needs is to stick to the fundamentals, get healthy, and things will be more than fine.

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10-16-2011, 05:06 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Last night's game was no biggie - it happens. You take 20m out of any lineup and they are going to be significantly weaker. That said, this team has shown the ability to win with less talent on the ice by playing mistake free hockey. They lost their fundamentals and it cost them the game - again not a big deal.

I am pretty happy with things overall. No real worries like I had in the past about this team. My only real worry is injuries and Crosby/Malkin getting and staying healthy.

I am not worried about the winger situation anymore with Neal and Sullivan now in the fold. I also think Shero will most likely be looking to add another top 6 winger at the deadline.

I can't find much to complain about to be honest. My biggest gripe has come down to Letestu not being put on waivers, but he hasn't done much to help his cause. So if/when it happens, I really won't even have much to say about that.

All this team team needs is to stick to the fundamentals, get healthy, and things will be more than fine.

I like how Sullivan and Neal have been generating offense on their own, which is what we need at the wing position especially with injuries.

My dream would be to see Doan on Malkin's wing in the postseason. But any big bodied top 9 RW will be an upgrade most likely and could allow us to run the CSK line again.

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10-17-2011, 08:25 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
We lost to a better team. It wasn't a great effort, and we didn't get the great performances from guys like Letang and Fleury that we need when we're... let's say... understaffed.

But I cannot say that I thought anyone stood out really negatively.

Big plus was Neal who was pretty much great, and I thought Niskanen and Engelland in particular had strong games on D, relative to what one can expect at least.

Staal deserves props for the goal and the faceoffs, but I don't understand why Kennedy is getting much criticism from guys here - everything that line did came from Kennedy, goal, chances and what have you. If anything it is Kunitz who needs to get himself into the season.
I thought Kennedy had a decent game but they split the Kunitz-Staal-Kennedy line up pretty early and swapped Dupuis and Kennedy.

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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I saw nothing but positives out of last night's game. We are battling with a top Eastern Conference team... without Sid/Geno/Orpik. That is freaking amazing. Any other team falls apart.

Huge additional up to Paul Martin. He was all over the ice last night and played a great game.
I agree , with a better 1st period they could have easily taken the game to OT or won it.

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10-17-2011, 12:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Uncle Martin View Post
Forgive me, for thinking they should be able to handle something they did for half a season last year. You are talking like this Sid & Geno being out is a brand new topic/theme. The wingers are also in way better shape than last year.

The D is exactly the same. They gaffed for a game and the forwards got their two goals. When Sid and Geno are out they need to win 3-2, 2-1 or 1-0. I don't blame Fleury for any of the goals and I'll just state I wish he stood up more.

Forwards did their job being under manned score wise, individually is another thing, though, with some.

It's OK to say the D let us down for this one game and not make it about Sid & Geno being out because it's been done before, a lot. Winning.
U.M., the fact of the matter is we simply cannot compete long term when both Sid and Geno are out. Sooner or later, it catches up to us. I compare this to when we won the Stanley Cup with Max Talbot as our No. 2 RW...as a top-six winger for Geno's line. In Game 7 of the '09 finals, he was awesome and we won. LONG TERM, Max Talbot is a terrible option as a top-six winger.

Don't you think opposing teams game plan differently when Sid and/or Geno are out of the lineup? Every defensive move we make goes under a microscope when our two best offensive players are out of action. And both help out defensively, as well, for outlet passes and such.

I get what you're saying. I was extremely pissed when we blew a 3-1 series lead to TB last spring. For me, we choked. But it doesn't change the fact we will lose games like that without Sid and Geno.

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10-17-2011, 12:27 PM
  #113
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Sure. We can't win without Sid and Geno. Now take out 20 million in salary from any other team and tell me if they would fair as well as we have. That's Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan, and Selanne from Anaheim. I can't guarantee anything, but my gut tells me that teams without 20 million dollars of production wouldn't be able to take a good team to 7 games in the playoffs, and put up 106 points.

The situation is what it is. You can't fix it. This team just need to ride out not having Sid, Geno, and Brooks.

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10-17-2011, 01:12 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Sure. We can't win without Sid and Geno. Now take out 20 million in salary from any other team and tell me if they would fair as well as we have. That's Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan, and Selanne from Anaheim. I can't guarantee anything, but my gut tells me that teams without 20 million dollars of production wouldn't be able to take a good team to 7 games in the playoffs, and put up 106 points.

The situation is what it is. You can't fix it. This team just need to ride out not having Sid, Geno, and Brooks.
And Jeffrey...

...and maybe Kennedy now...

...then we all know Sullivan is injury prone...

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10-17-2011, 01:24 PM
  #115
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And Jeffrey...

...and maybe Kennedy now...

...then we all know Sullivan is injury prone...
and Kunitz... and...

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10-17-2011, 06:12 PM
  #116
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Cooke-Staal-Dupuis
Tangradi-Jeffrey-Neal
McDonald-Vitale-Asham
MacIntyre-Adams-Park

With injuries to Kuni, TK, Sid, Geno, Sully. Let's pray it doesn't come to that.

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10-17-2011, 06:21 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Cooke-Staal-Dupuis
Tangradi-Jeffrey-Neal
McDonald-Vitale-Asham
MacIntyre-Adams-Park

With injuries to Kuni, TK, Sid, Geno, Sully. Let's pray it doesn't come to that.
you forgot Letestu.

Cooke - Staal - Dupuis
Tangradi - Jeffrey - Neal
Park - Vitale - Asham
MacIntyre - Letestu - Adams

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10-17-2011, 06:59 PM
  #118
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Sure. We can't win without Sid and Geno. Now take out 20 million in salary from any other team and tell me if they would fair as well as we have. That's Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan, and Selanne from Anaheim. I can't guarantee anything, but my gut tells me that teams without 20 million dollars of production wouldn't be able to take a good team to 7 games in the playoffs, and put up 106 points.

The situation is what it is. You can't fix it. This team just need to ride out not having Sid, Geno, and Brooks.
Yup. Of course, no team can afford to lose two players like Sid and Geno more than us. No two players mean more to their team than our two guys. The proof is in cap management.

We've known this since Hossa left but we rely too heavily on them. When other teams lose their two best players, they're still better off than we are.

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10-17-2011, 07:28 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Yup. Of course, no team can afford to lose two players like Sid and Geno more than us. No two players mean more to their team than our two guys. The proof is in cap management.

We've known this since Hossa left but we rely too heavily on them. When other teams lose their two best players, they're still better off than we are.
We rely heavily on them because of their salaries. We are forced to. It's not like Shero would ideally want that much of our offense to go out the door once one of them gets injured.

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10-17-2011, 10:10 PM
  #120
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We rely heavily on them because of their salaries. We are forced to. It's not like Shero would ideally want that much of our offense to go out the door once one of them gets injured.
Seriously... I'm not even sure how this point is debatable.

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